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Assisted Suicide


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Poll: Assisted Suicide

Assisted Suicide

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#61 THOTH

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 01:47 PM

Sasun & Fadiix -

what can I say but from my perspective you both so miss the point. Domino - all of yoru objections and suggestions are taken into account. Though perhaps one could take enough meds and just be outr like a vegtable and live on for years...would you really think this to be life? And Sasun - why is not someone s life their own to take. You don't want tanyone telling you when to get married and what car to buy etc etc - all these sorts of things - so how is it anyone's place but the persons whose life it is to make such a choice. And it should be the persons choice - with counsuling and discussion with firned relatives etc - as is always done in these assisted suicide cases - to decide when enough is enough inn regards to pain, suffering and the downward spiral. Who is to say that living another several years - if that - is worth so much. Ones life is composed of many years - of growing and interacting with friends, family, raising a family perhaps - etc - so with that being pretty much done - why not say - OK i am ready for my end - no one can live forever...what is more natural than choosing your own time....one way or another...(anmd i just dont at all buy this idea that we have been lent a life or some such...our lives are unique - each one based on chemisty, genetics, environment/experience...and we all need to deal with what we've got and make the best of it...no sense in worrying about past lives or demands from unseen beings or whathave you - we have pelnty to worry about and take care of right here down on the ground.

And yes Stormy I agree completely! LOL

#62 Sasun

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 02:14 PM

Eh Thoth, it is useless. You just don't understand what I am saying.

Stormy, all those areas could be discussed from various perspectives. One of those is religion & spirituality. Perhaps this dicussion should belong to a "spirituality" subforum rather than "theology" but since we don't have one then it's not a terrible mistake to put in "theology" section.

#63 Sasun

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ Dec 22 2003, 11:35 AM)
2) Many new medications exist, such as mood ahancers, SSRI, or other drugs, could permit some injoy some form of life.

3) There is powerfull pain killers existing.

I agree. I would also add prayer and meditation as a more powerful and fundamental way of alleviating pain and suffering. This is by the way the oldest and safest cure.

#64 THOTH

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Dec 22 2003, 03:14 PM)
Eh Thoth, it is useless. You just don't understand what I am saying.

ditto

#65 THOTH

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 03:34 PM

Links for assisted suicide studies:

http://www.longwood....ibrary/suic.htm
A very nice one with lost of its own links..

http://www.mcwilliam...ks/aint/312.htm
This one lays it out pretty well

http://members.tripo...rd/index-3.html
From a clinicians perspective (very balanced BTW)

http://www.endoflife....org/microsite/

http://www.hemlock.org/index.asp

http://www.compassio...locked_room.php
a testimonial

http://www.findartic...1...erm=?cf=dls
this one even argues/concludes against assisted suicide - certainly there are issues to be concerned with

I also recommend checking out a book by Thomas Szasz: "Fatal Freedom - the Ethics and politics of Suicide" - very worthwhile if you care at al about this issue. (And you should know that he is pro-suicide - but against doctor assisted suicide!)

And for those whop thik that one can just up the dose of pain meds - well consider - these meds are limited by health insucrance and plans - in fact you cannot have access to unlimited pain relief meds - and if you do they can be incredibly costly. Idf you are going to dies anyway - and horribly etc - isn't it bette rto allow your kin etc to benefit and not just squirril all that money away for nothing/ think about it. Anyway - it should be your choice. one should not be prevented from having the choice - thats all.

#66 DominO

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 04:31 PM

THOTH, Sorry to tell you that your last argument is disgusting. Pain killers should be avelable to anyone, justifying assisted suicide with such an argument is just simply disgusting. If the system is the problem, it is the system that should adapt.

You consider that ones possess entirly the freedom of his life, this is a view that I totally opposes, each one of us lives in a society with many people, if we were to follow your views, the world will be in a total chaos without any order, your view is just plain anarchist. I mean, how is it possible to even debate about this issue with you, with not only do you support assassisted suicide but you even support plain suicide.

No one was even able to answer my concerns, the only article that worth readind in every links was one which was cut in two pieces, that makes me believe that you haven't read that article, but still wrote what it was about by basing yourself on its conclusion at the last page. The article that you say is against suicide is neither for or against, because there is two articles, the second one was against suicide, only the one that would read the conclusion without reading the entire 7 pages could make that mistake.

Furthermore, the part that is against suicide does even not talk about my concerns, but bring a corncern that I would even not have believed that it could be a concern in a civilized society, I'm just disgusted about this, and even more so that you just give this same option in your last post, I didn't believed that you Thoth could come up with something like this.

Just give hope and give values to the life of those that suffer, provide them psychological help, listen to them, make their life easier with medications that will ahance their moods, add to that pain killers... and tell me if this person will still want to die, if after all those and after that many psychiatrists after examinating this individual and telling that this individual decision is not caused by depression... THEN, it may be an option, but I doubt that after all those precautions, there will be many or even a few left that would take the decision.

Have you read those articles, have you seen by yourself that there is only very few that took actually the decision? You are not giving them the choice, my decision here has nothing to do with a god, neither is it a religious believe, as an agnostic god is not a concern for me. I am talking about the moral standards of a society, it is the easy way to make laws like this, because we don't want to responsabilise ourself and in a sense to get rid of those persons we consider problematic. Like the article refered mention, we are not giving them a choice.

It is really pathetic.

PS: This does not change the fact that in few cases I do believe that assisted suicide could be acceptable, this is why I say it is a case by case thing, but like I also said, I am against any laws. In some cases after everything has been done, the person want really to end his/her life... his/her medication could be stopped, or the treatment that is maintaining him alive could be stopped... this for me is a distinction between injecting something to kill someone, and stopping treatments. Both are different issues.

The process of dying is a part of life.

PS2: Thoth, as for your comments about what kind of life worth living, I don't think that worth any replies.

Edited by Fadix, 22 December 2003 - 04:42 PM.


#67 Sasun

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 04:42 PM

By the way, I was not talking about legally banning suicide (maybe that's an option, maybe not, I am not sure). My argument is purely of moral and philosophical nature.

P.S. Domino, you have been using "assassisted suicide" instead of "assisted". I am not a psychologist to tell: subconsiously, does it have to do with "assassination" (murder) or "ass" ? biggrin.gif

#68 DominO

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 05:03 PM

Sasun, I realised this as well, don't ask me why I wrote it that way. Weird.

About law, when I said I am against laws, I was talking about against laws making assisted suicide legal, this is institualizing it. Maybe decriminalizing it would be a good choice, it will permit to make it a case by case thing, but for a law, I'm against.

#69 ED

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 11:55 PM

Domino, pain killers are just narcotics at there best, my argument was in principal, dignifying death, the GOOD DEATH, if a person chooses NOT to go thru therapy, (chemo, radiation and etcÖ..) then that to me is acceptable and moral, I see nothing wrong and everything right in this. My mother she suffered her last days so much it left scares on me for the rest of my life. Why, why did she have to suffer so much when there was no hope? Pardon my sensitivity on this, but this topic is very sensitive to my heart and in those dark hours what we went thru, only me and my family can relate to that. And yes she was on pain killers for 3 mounts; I wish she died rather then given those pain killers

As for assisted suicide, thatís open to debate, and I donít know if in USA for this reason even supreme court has ruled in favor or against it, and I be surprised even if supreme court would have a ruling one way or the other on this issue.

#70 DominO

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 11:28 AM

QUOTE (Edward @ Dec 22 2003, 11:55 PM)
Domino, pain killers are just narcotics at there best, my argument was in principal, dignifying death, the GOOD DEATH, if a person chooses NOT to go thru therapy, (chemo, radiation and etcÖ..) then that to me is acceptable and moral, I see nothing wrong and everything right in this. My mother she suffered her last days so much it left scares on me for the rest of my life. Why, why did she have to suffer so much when there was no hope? Pardon my sensitivity on this, but this topic is very sensitive to my heart and in those dark hours what we went thru, only me and my family can relate to that. And yes she was on pain killers for 3 mounts; I wish she died rather then given those pain killers

As for assisted suicide, thatís open to debate, and I donít know if in USA for this reason even supreme court has ruled in favor or against it, and I be surprised even if supreme court would have a ruling one way or the other on this issue.

Edward, I am sorry to hear this. Cancer is a different subject... Like I said stopping treatments, and injecting a substance to kill are both different. I have myself used very powerful pain killers, and believe me those new medications do wonders, my pain was enought powerful that it could have made me lost conscienceness.

#71 THOTH

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 11:40 AM

QUOTE (Domino @ Dec 22 2003, 05:31 PM)
THOTH, Sorry to tell you that your last argument is disgusting. Pain killers should be avelable to anyone, justifying assisted suicide with such an argument is just simply disgusting. If the system is the problem, it is the system that should adapt.

You consider that ones possess entirly the freedom of his life, this is a view that I totally opposes, each one of us lives in a society with many people, if we were to follow your views, the world will be in a total chaos without any order, your view is just plain anarchist. I mean, how is it possible to even debate about this issue with you, with not only do you support assassisted suicide but you even support plain suicide.

No one was even able to answer my concerns, the only article that worth readind in every links was one which was cut in two pieces, that makes me believe that you haven't read that article, but still wrote what it was about by basing yourself on its conclusion at the last page. The article that you say is against suicide is neither for or against, because there is two articles, the second one was against suicide, only the one that would read the conclusion without reading the entire 7 pages could make that mistake.

Furthermore, the part that is against suicide does even not talk about my concerns, but bring a corncern that I would even not have believed that it could be a concern in a civilized society, I'm just disgusted about this, and even more so that you just give this same option in your last post, I didn't believed that you Thoth could come up with something like this.

Just give hope and give values to the life of those that suffer, provide them psychological help, listen to them, make their life easier with medications that will ahance their moods, add to that pain killers... and tell me if this person will still want to die, if after all those and after that many psychiatrists after examinating this individual and telling that this individual decision is not caused by depression... THEN, it may be an option, but I doubt that after all those precautions, there will be many or even a few left that would take the decision.

Have you read those articles, have you seen by yourself that there is only very few that took actually the decision? You are not giving them the choice, my decision here has nothing to do with a god, neither is it a religious believe, as an agnostic god is not a concern for me. I am talking about the moral standards of a society, it is the easy way to make laws like this, because we don't want to responsabilise ourself and in a sense to get rid of those persons we consider problematic. Like the article refered mention, we are not giving them a choice.

It is really pathetic.

PS: This does not change the fact that in few cases I do believe that assisted suicide could be acceptable, this is why I say it is a case by case thing, but like I also said, I am against any laws. In some cases after everything has been done, the person want really to end his/her life... his/her medication could be stopped, or the treatment that is maintaining him alive could be stopped... this for me is a distinction between injecting something to kill someone, and stopping treatments. Both are different issues.

The process of dying is a part of life.

PS2: Thoth, as for your comments about what kind of life worth living, I don't think that worth any replies.

Agai Domino - your talking the ideal - I'm talking reality..Yes pain killers should be available - but often aren't - its a great shame really - an injustive...but it is reality. Also - after so many meds - narcotics etc - a person pretty much looses it - who wants ot be like that all of the time? I've actualy experienced this with a very close relative of mine. And we discussed suicide - and I was supportive of whatever she wanted - though she decided to stick it out - which was good - but she didn't last much longer anyway. Ler me just say - these were not easy discussions.

I read the articles BTW. But the 7 pager - I read the fisr few pages - the interview - then the last 2 or so - didn't realizre that they were different - but did seem odd/disconected. I dont just post things I dont read. I might not read every word - but enough to basically know what I'm posting.

And yes - your right - most do not choose suicide - and thats good. But for those that do - and have - they ought to have that right. And those that help them should not be criminals. It is people like you - who are trying to make the decision for them - who are not giving them the choice.

And you misunderstand me about the kind of life wotrth living. This is an individuals choice - and yes - if one is terminal or in such intense pain that they cannot function - except as a vegtalbe - wel yes - ending ones life is an acceptable option IMO - very much so - and there is no shame at all in taking this position.

#72 DominO

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 05:14 PM

Thoth, you still repeat the same thing, and you say first that you are not telling what life is worth living, but you still bring this argument. As for what is realist, it is realist to make avelable pain killers, maybe in your country not everyone has access to them, but here in Canada, this is not a problem... so it is reality, because it is a fact for here in Canada, Beside that, you are not even here to have a debate about the issue, you havn't even answered concerning the fact that you support plain suicide of a healthy individual.

#73 bellthecat

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ Dec 23 2003, 11:14 PM)
...Beside that, you are not even here to have a debate about the issue, you havn't even answered concerning the fact that you support plain suicide of a healthy individual.

Not surprising, since in a different thread a few months ago Thoth said something like "suicide is pathetic".

#74 THOTH

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 08:42 AM

I do think that suicide is pathetic - for a healthy individual. Just the same i don't think it should be a criminal act. And I answered the "life worth living" issue - again this is an individual judgement call - based on a decision reached by an individual after they have had proper counseling and such to know their options and prospects etc. As for being realistic - well pain meds are all well and good - but some folks would rather not live as a vegtable - and I've had this conversation with a relative who had this prospect and very adamently chose not to (if it came to such). My wife and I too have both chosen to not have continued life support etc in this sort of case. And while in Canada all the meds you want may be provided for - and thats good...here in the states it is much more limited. There are all sorts of caps on what is available - so for a person with limited means - they just might not have options...yes this is certainly an injustive and is tragic - but it is reality at this point.




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