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#1 Harut

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 08:45 PM

what happens when we die? what's the religious (christian) explanation?

#2 MosJan

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:01 PM

Haroutjan du kyanqi s@k@zbi masin mtatsy yev voch te verchi

#3 Azat

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:28 PM

Harut jan, who cares what happens after we die. I think you better enjoy your life to the fullest while you are alive.

#4 MosJan

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:53 PM

ham el mez inchi es hartsnum ??? karrora gites menq Viliko Bogn enq
mi hat Astvats Papikin Emal Gri

Help@astvats.com

yerkar barak bamer chases mard@ spam Email kardalu jamanak chuni

:)

#5 Harut

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 11:05 PM

we (some 10-15 armenian guyes) were having a discussion today at uni for the first time about something other than girls and money. yes religion...
i must say, i was suprised how diverse we are. we had a Domino type guy, who accepts no religion and talked about consciousness. we had someone very religious, someone who didn't give heck about any of that, someone who was confused, someone who created his own beliefs from multiple religions, etc...
anyways...

i wanted to ask this question to religious ones but forgot. so i'm asking here.

#6 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 10:33 AM

Harut, Christians believe that when we die we are are sleeping, and at the end of the world we will be all resurected and be judged.

The Muslim have a similar belief, as for the Jews, it is not clear, there was in some time Jewish sects which believed that when you die, you die and it is the end, but in the Torah, it is never really specified, of course there is the temple which will land to specify the victory of Israel, and the paradise on Earth, but the rest is still not clear.

My favoured one is the Budhist belief of the none-soul, it is an interesting concept that many scientics accept(Dr. Wolf, a physicist has writen a book about soul which he take this path, and it recieved a very positive critic by the large majority of scientifics). The none-soul is that, the "soul" is an illusion, and that even if it does not exist this life is not really the end. For the Hindus, its near similar but it is with the concept of "soul" rather than "none-soul."

If I think of that, it is not reall death that threatens me, but rather that life on Earth is worthless, or that it has no sense at all, and that if Earth was to be destroyed it would be of no consequences, this is the view of the Nihilists. I finaly concluded that this is wrong, because we humans build sense out of things, and those senses really exist, therefore this view is unproductif, and inaquirate just by taking a look at the values that every societies have.



Now, about the soul, here is my conclusion, if soul was to not exist, it would be easier for immortality to exist, because what that would mean, is that conscience is the product of our brain, a kind of software run in a quantum computer(our brain). If that is the cases, then, after your death we have to reproduce your quantum states and connections in your brain, and we will have Harut, you won't even see the difference.

If, on the other hand, the soul exist, then you will still be immortal... so from the two sides, for the individuality, there is always hope, I prefer the none-soul, because, first it is more logical, and second, there is more hope to it to exist.

Our Universe has started from a Quantum bubble, from this theory, infinit numbers of Universes have existed, and will exist, this is what the 11nt dimension of the Super String theory concluded, and this theory will be the one of future replacing Quantum mechanic.

If that is true, and I believe it is, because there is no reason that our Universe is the only one, and if it came to birth from nothingless, since nothingless is not determinated and has no limit, the number of "thing" the nothingless could creat, would not have any limit at all as well... so that means, or our Universe is infinitly big or that there is infinit numbers of Universes... in both cases, that chances to find a Harut, with the same Quantum states before you, or after you, is of 100 %. After you die, from what you have died, in another Universe you won't die of the same thing, and theoritically, this Harut that died( that is you) won't see he died, but will rather maybe continue to live.

The other Harut could exist in billions of years, but when one die, times stop for him or her... so if he die, and than resurected after billions of years, he won't see the difference at all, what proves that you have not died a hour ago in another Universe? What proves you have not died billions of years ago in another Universe? I mean, deaths don't observe, we observe, the living observe, so you observe a person dying, can he observe he died?

I just believe that, our level of conscience exist for eternity, it always existed... it just become less evoluated, and more evoluated etc... when someone take age for example, he start forgetting, forgetting, less brain power etc... but later it can just happen to be that in another universe billions of years later, it does just the opposit.




Ah and, I do not reject religion, I believe your world, is your world, mine is mine... the person that believe in God, in his Universe God exist, he believe on it, and will find sense out of things, that may be wrong for the atheist, but is true for him. I believe in the power of prayers, not because I believe in God, but because I believe that the believer has in his Universe, that is his own, his God, and his Universe accept miracles.

It's like the experiments which the observer has a direct impact on the results, like the experiment of the "memory of water" two experimenters, based on their belief came to different conclusions, or the one of homeopathy(which I believe now, is just more than a believe).

Every possibilities that you can imagine, exist one way or another in other Universes, you just choose in which of those you want to live, conscience is just that, a filter, that filter what it dosen't like, and lets pass the Universe it want to live in.

Edited by Fadix, 09 August 2003 - 10:39 AM.


#7 Sip

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 01:44 PM

Here's my conclusion: Death is the end and we all know it and that's why so many are affraid of it. People try very very hard to convince themselves there is something after that but of course there isn't. Have you ever passed out in a coma (I have, twice for surgeries ... one to repair my borken shoulder) where you don't remember anything and nothing basically happens? Death is like that, except it's permanent.

#8 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 02:01 PM

Here's my conclusion: Death is the end and we all know it and that's why so many are affraid of it. People try very very hard to convince themselves there is something after that but of course there isn't. Have you ever passed out in a coma (I have, twice for surgeries ... one to repair my borken shoulder) where you don't remember anything and nothing basically happens? Death is like that, except it's permanent.

Sip, it is not that simple. Define me what is the "end." Explain me what is conscience, and how it exist.

As for coma, there is still brain activities during a coma. Now, imagine that your brain stops, and that conscience is the product of the brain, what if billions of years from now, in an Universe, the same connections and quantum states exist as the one of your brain? Would Seaphan just not reappear again? With the same memories as those you already accumulated, in the differences that that one won't die of what you have died.

Until we don't have the explaination on what is really conscience, why it exist and how it exist etc... until we do not fully understand the Universe, we shall just not know the answer that Harut asked, everything is uncertain, beside your knowledge of your existance, foundamental mathematic and the certitute of the uncertitude. It is like Quantum mechanic, and this is why we have invented philosophy, if the answers were evident, philosophy would not exist.

Your conclusion is based on conditioning... a child is impressed by the world, of all its magic, more he learn, mor he become conditioned... first the child is impressed of laws such as gravity, when he shut the ball, it ends up on the floor... than at certain age, we become conditioned based on what we percieve and nature. The day you will shut the ball and realise that it will not go back on the floor, you will look that like a child, that would be impressed.

I don't know if you understand what I mean...

Beliefe of life after death is not lesser valid than nothing after death, because everything is made of uncertitude, you just take the path of the way nature has conditioned you to think, or better what you percieve, nature may well be more than what can be percieved.

#9 Sip

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 02:40 PM

Sip, it is not that simple. Define me what is the "end."

You won't feel anything, you won't remember anything, you won't learn anything, you won't forget anything, you will not be angry, you will not be sad, you will not be mad, you will not be happy ... etc etc etc .... nothing will matter since you will be dead. You will be no more. There will not be anymore "you".

As far as the last part of what you said, there is EVERYTHING to point to the fact that there is nothing after death. There is NOTHING to point to there is something after death, other that what we have created with our imaginative minds. And as you well know, I am more a believer of facts rather than fiction.

Could there be something after death? Sure there could. Is there something after death? Hell no! No pun intended ;)

#10 Sip

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 02:50 PM

Again to clarify, I fully understand that we humans can't see or know everything. But all I am asking for is a slight shred of evidence that there is something after death. Until you can show me something like that, of course I have no reason to believe there is something like that.

Now if you want that we go on discussing possibilities and maybes and what ifs ... sure we can do that but I never base my beliefs on any of those things.

#11 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 03:03 PM

Sip, it is not that simple. Define me what is the "end."

You won't feel anything, you won't remember anything, you won't learn anything, you won't forget anything, you will not be angry, you will not be sad, you will not be mad, you will not be happy ... etc etc etc .... nothing will matter since you will be dead. You will be no more. There will not be anymore "you".

Sip, it is not as simple. What is the "you" ? You supposes that every person is independent, a closed system... this is untrue. The "me" is not only what I think, what I feel etc... the me is as well the observed me, the "me" and what this me does in the system where it is observed. There is a direct relationship between "me" and the Universe around me.

What I believe, is that the answer is not clear, it is unspecified, undeterminated... because of the way our brain works, because we "talk" and we think with those words, those words are made to discribe our environment, what we can observe.

In order to say that when you die, it is the end, one must define what life really is, what is the impact of the observer, and the other observers on this observer and to the Universe which everyone of us are part of.

I do not believe death is the end, because I do not believe birth is the start, I just believe I exist, this is the only certainty with foundamental mathematic and the certainty that the rest is uncertain.

Claiming for anyone to have the clear answer, would be only arrogance, I gave many possibilities, but those possibilities still are unclear, because what I said, I believe is true, but does that prove this other me will exactlly be my continuity? This I can't say much.

This uncertainty makes us what we are... if we knew that death is not the end, we would not value life the way we do, if on the other hand, we knew it is the end, our society will just not be like this, differences among cultures will not exist, but we may be polirised etc...

This uncertainty has a part on the existance of religions, of different cultures, myths etc... our human values are as well most of them based on the fear of death, Freedian "sex"as the center is not true, but the "death" is. We know we will all die one day, and some may believe there is something after, other may not believe, and for the majority, just we don't know... and this is the best thing that could happen.




Another thing, when I used many time the word nothingless, I don't know what it really means, in French we have the "néan" and the "rien" in physic, the "rien"exist, but not the "néan" because of the "rien" is something. Like in math, "0" is something... what is death? It is the absence of energy and forces, we do not have any physics that explain the laws of an absence... even when you suppose a nonexistance of a forces in physic, you place the "0" which means, that all the forces from every sides are equilibrated... when an absance is not the same thing at all.



Here is now my believe... I just believe that both parties are right, there is nothing and something after death, it sound contradictory... and undeterminated. I just believe that the "me" for eternity will be more ordered, less ordered, more ordered less ordered... just chaotically... in Univereses where this Quantum states that makes me exist... my memories may not be conserved, conserved in part wholy etc... in different paterns for eternity... can we really call that life after death? I don't know, since I will most probably not remember this life, maybe a second ago I died of something, and that this second ago was billions of years ago, and that I live now in the other me that was one of the possibilities which didn't died of what the other possibility died.

#12 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 03:06 PM

Again to clarify, I fully understand that we humans can't see or know everything. But all I am asking for is a slight shred of evidence that there is something after death. Until you can show me something like that, of course I have no reason to believe there is something like that.

Now if you want that we go on discussing possibilities and maybes and what ifs ... sure we can do that but I never base my beliefs on any of those things.

Seaphan, like I said, my beliefe of an after death is undeterminated... it may be considered as life after death or may not, depending on the definition.

I have no evidences to prove you life after death, some may bring evidences, but not prove... there is ifs and possibilities, and another thing, it is not because there is no prove that something exist, it means it dosen't exist.

#13 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 03:40 PM

BTW.

http://victorzammit.com/

Check that out, that man offer us to prove him that life after death does not exist, and he'll give you a million dollar.

I just wonder how one can disprove something that can not be proven. :D

#14 Sip

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 04:31 PM

I am NOT asking for proof. I am only asking for a slight evidence of why we would even think about there being something after death? As far as I can see, the only reason "something" after death is being considered is human imagination. Thus, I don't believe in it.

#15 Sip

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 04:37 PM

Suppose I give you a piece of rock. Inside that rock, there could be a very very beautiful thing which will answer all questions that we have ever had. Could there be such a thing in that rock? sure. Do I believe there is something in there? Hell NO. I have no reason to believe such a thing, other than my wild imagination.

Are you going to make another 5 paragraph post about all that fancy stuff? Keep it simple ... Ockham's Razor to the rescue. :)

#16 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 04:54 PM

Sip, Ockham's Razor doesn't apply here. Why conscience exist? Has it a part in natural selection? How do you see that? Some species had consciences, some had not, and those that had consciences were advantaged and survived?

I do not see life after death as a human imagination, I see it as a software being rerun in another universe, that is all. And another thing, you have your belief, everyone has their beliefs, in your universe you accept your reality, the important here is for everyone to find his path, a sense to his life. Even your belief of saying there is nothing is still a believe, only those that dough and don't know can claim to not believe.

Now, the rock analogy, your comparaison is not accurate, because ultimate truth does not exist, everything is uncertitude, underminated, you determinate your truth, there is series of truth that makes more sense than others, but that is it... and even if you could have the truth, this truth could not be interprated by humans. The same does not go with life after death, life after death is not only based on human "imagination" it is based more on finding sense to life, giving value to life, humanists for example do not need a life after death, because they believe that humanity could evolve, and that humanity is important, and not the individualism, the collectivity shall survive.

There is many things we ignore, it would be very irresponsable for a scientific to claim a certitude over something which its existance is made from the existance of another thing that we ignore how it exist. What I mean, is that death is the end, but the end of what? Conscience? Why conscience exist? You see, this is what I mean.

Imagine that I were to take all your memories and implament them on the brain of another person, would you be transfered on that person? Do you know the answer of that? Now, imagine that not, because of the quantum states that should be transfered with it, suppose that we do all of those, would you be transfered? If you say no to that, than you believe that there is more than matter, if you say yes! Than you are forced to accept the possibility of a life after a death.

Again, it is not as simple.

Edited by Fadix, 09 August 2003 - 04:57 PM.


#17 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 04:58 PM

ANother thing, conscience sounds so magical, so misterious, so rewarding, that it is very logical to say that at the very least, the universe should be as much magical, as much misterious, as much rewarding... and if we suppose that, we can expect everything from such a beautiful and misterious universe.

#18 Sip

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 06:24 PM

Inside that rock, there could be a very very beautiful thing which will answer all questions that we have ever had. ...

and for those of you with dirty minds, no, it's not the "C" word. :rolleyes: :o ;)

#19 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 06:53 PM

The same does not go with life after death,

Ignore " the same does not go." I wonder why I wrote that.

#20 Sasun

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 10:50 PM

I think Christianity doesn't give specifics of things that will happen after death. The notion of heaven and hell are there but as to when that judgement day will come is not clear. Purgatory is also interesting and makes it more realistic rather than souls sleeping until the judgement day.
Personally I believe the Hindu version is the most truthful. It says that the soul is infinite, and what we call life is only a temporary experience of the soul. The soul is like our real identity. When it enters a body, this is called birth. When it leaves the body, this is called death. It is like changing the clothes, clothes being all our phisical body and mind. So death is really an act of transformation for the soul but not death. We fear it because that is the end of our present mind and body. In reality, it is not the soul that fears, but the temporary self - the mind.
We can imagine this or something else, but the way this cocept has come into existance is not imagination. Thousands of years ago sages were really concerned about life and death, trying to understand any meaning in it. Through intense concentration and meditation they discovered the soul and its journey through numerous lifes and deaths. There can be no proof for that because even theoretically there cannot be any proof, one can prove things that are physical and involved in experiments. Soul, being a non-physical entity simply cannot be proven. The only way one can have evidence is to discover it for yourself through intense meditation.




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