Armenian-Turkish dialog

I don't think that Turkey's stance towards Armenia is due to our expectation from them to recognize the Genocide. If that was all, I think they would've recognized the Genocide quite some time ago. I think the problem is in what's, supposedly, coming next to their recognition.

Yes. And in order to prevent those potential consequences they don't want to recognize it, and want Armenia to drop the issue. If Armenia was to drop the issue do you think Turkey would start cooperating fully in all aspects (economically, politically) to the point where Armenia would benefit a significant amount? That's what they seem to say but maybe I misinterpreted.

I am not sure if there are real consequences, but definitely there is a perception of a further hustle. The official demands of Turkey for the establishment of diplomatic and other relations with Armenia are two: drop the charges of the Genocide, and remove the forces from the "occupied" Azerbaijani territories.

The first demand is, obviously, not going to be satisfied, and it is , in my view, the only way Armenia may pressure Turkey to a negotiating table. Removing the forces is an issue between Armenia and Azerbaijan, in reality, and in the opinion of some high ranking (former) official of the Armenian government, this request is a mistake put forward by Turkey in early '90s, which their officials quitely recognize. But now that they have put it forward, they have trapped themselves, and cannot walk away due to their internal public opinion. This issue can be resolved only when there is a progress in Armenian-Azerbaijani relations (regardless of pulling the forces out), and Azerbaijan itself urges Turkey, to lift the blockade, so that they are also relived from the blockade imposed on them by Armenia. I think this is possible. But at this time, it is a wait and see game - who will run out of patience. There is an opinion that Armenia cannot survive long, thus will comply.

For this reason, for example, I think that Armenian economy has to be developed in a way that Turkey's or Azerbaijan's blockades become irrelevant, i.e. Armenia doesn't really need their roads. At least Armenia has to take such coarse, and demonstrate that it can survive even without Turkey and Azerbaijan. It would mean at least tor a decade or so to walk away from the heavy industrial orientation, which has been characteristic of Armenia's Soviet era economy, and development of less demanding, in this sense, sectors of economy. It also may be achieved by guaranteeing flow of financial capital without necessarily relaying on the local economy. This requires creative and visionary approach from the Armenian Government, which so far has been absent. The only indication of this kind of possibility was the assignment of Armen Sargissyan - the for mer ambassador of Armenia in UK, on the position of Prime Minister, but he was "choked," and not allowed to work, as I recall.

To be honest, it would be better if Armenia move on and start nagotiating with Turkey. It will be very good for us economically. However, my pride inside me tells the opposite: they should recognise and beg on the knees and ask for forgiveness! I totally support Dashnaktsutyun Party when they roughly rejected any dialogs between Turkey and Armenia. Who are Turks??? I've seen many turks nowadays, all the youth. I think we should give them orders what to do but not they to close air corridors and things like that!!!

Believe me one day it will happen.
If there were 60 million armenians living in Armenia (same as turkey), there would be no Turkey present day. E.g. Put 100 Armenians and 100 Turks in one room. 80 Turks will run away, 20 will be dead ::)) I think we've learned a lot from the genocide.

Artur.
P.S. If everyone of us have lets say 20 children we will make 60 mil in one generation. ::))

I suspect not all of you belong to ASALA or for that matter backstabbers like your ancestors. To side with the Russians and kill helpless children, babies and denying these facts show the real character of armenians, a character without dignity and honor. No matter what you people say, you cannot distort the facts or history with your senseless, false and idiotic propaganda.

Wow! Look at the type of present we got in this forum. The Sharp Tongue, the Hair of Oppressed, the Voice of Turkey.


Look Raven, this thread is a devoted to a dialog. If you have any qualified arguments to make - go on. But please have the manners to knock the door first, and then, when entering, say Hello, just for the sake of building a proper image for yourself.

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 29, 2001).]

Look mr moderator,

How do you know I am Turkish? Stop making assumptions. Yes I am Turkish. A Turk whose ancestors were slaughtered by Armenians. If this is a free forum, you need to respect the opinions of others. I am sure you will not delete nor stop me from posting on this message board. If you do, then that will show that Armenians do not tolerate opinions and expressions of others. This will really show, not how terrible the Turks are, but how horrible the Armenians really are. So i suggest you do not delete my messages.

Raven,

Apparently I knew you were, and I was not wrong. Why are you questioning my correct guess.

Yes, this is a free forum, and we encourage people of all nations to engage in a dialog with us, as long as they have elementary manners. We will not delete nor stop you. We will encourage you to speak out. And you don’t have to be overly defensive and hedge yourself in advance from our subsequent actions or comments. If you feel the confidence in expressing your feelings, go right ahead. Only have manners. I think I also may find several questions to ask you on behalf of my ancestors. But all in due time.

But before I do so, I would like to ask you what is the purpose of your visit to our forum, and what are you trying to accomplish?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RAVEN:
[B]Look mr moderator,

How do you know I am Turkish?


From the smell!

That is a good one!

Now, do you see Mr. Turk that we Armenians have a sense of humor. Also, Raven it would be nice to hear from you your objective of joying Armenian forum.

I joined this forum to see how you people blame and put down the Turks. How much you loathe us and how much you will love to gain the lands in the east of Turkey. Is it not true that the whole Armenian agenda was to acquire the lands in the East of Turkey with the help of the Western powers and Russia while the Ottomans were at war. Is this not the truth? Also, i would like to state that, lot of Turks, Kurds and Armenians died in WWI, but there was no genocide. If you think so, then there was genocide of Turks too. I mean, annihilating babies and helpless people would be considered genocide right. I mean Armenians and Russians made an excellent plan to eradicate the turks and the kurds, a mere systematic cleasing. What do you think? I am not here to post impetuous comments or call names, rather, i am here to convey my opinions and know why so much hatred. When will armenians look to the future for economic stability. I like to reiterate that what happened was not all delightful in history...take care

Raven,

So, how would you explain that from 2.5 million Armenian populations of historic Western Armenia or (presently Easter Turkey)aren't left a soul? How come, now in cities like Van, Kars, Sasun, Mush, etc, which were 100% populated by Armenians before 1915, now 100% populated by Turks and Kurds? Why do you think the survived million of Armenians left everything they had and run for their lives?

You know I would be glad if back in 1915 it were the way you are saying that Turks had been massacred by Russian or Armenians and Western Armenian would have been now populated by Armenians and be part of Armenia. And the Turkey would have been asking Armenia to recognize Turkish genocide. This would have been perfect, but unfortunately it is the opposite!

I think that your tone has improved, though I am ready to question at least few of your statements. But that's OK. We can discuss them as the day unbundles.

It makes no sense for us to prove you whether Ottoman Turkey has committed Genocide or not. We have no questions regarding it, nor does the absolute majority of the Humanity. Besides, it has been proven over and over in various international academic and political institutions. We can help you to get familiarized with them.

In my view, the recognition of Turkey's committing of a Genocide is Turkey's own problem, and the problem of Turkish people - it is an issue of your own morality, and issue of your ability to put behind the shameful chapters of your own history.

Since I cannot give you an overwhelming answer right now, and perhaps our potential discussion may go in many possible directions, and become uncontrollable due to the sensitivity of the issue, I would like to ask you few questions so that to rout the discussion towards a contractive path.

1. What does constitute Genocide according to you (you have claimed that what has happened to Armenians was not a Genocide)?
2. Who has committed Genocide against the Turks, on whose behalf, when, where, and what are your sources?
3. Why do you bring the issue of the Armenian economy of modern days up, while discussing the issue of the Genocide? Is it a threat, or is there a direct link?

These questions are just the beginning. If you could answer them, I hope we can better understand where are you comeing from, and what is your purpose. This is not a test, but rather pursues a purpose of identification whether we are trying to accomplish something positive or we are trying just to exchange slenders and slurs. In the first case, we would welcome the dialog, in the second case, I would say, we have enough problems of our own, and I don't see anything which might stimulate us to engage in discussions with you.

Hope this is acceptable.

P.S. By the way, you may check the following Web site for the definition of Genocide: http://www.tufts.edu...texts/BH225.txt



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 30, 2001).]

The number of Armenian killed has been changed many times, i have heard 1.5, 2.0. and 2.5 million. According to what sources has this been established through. The number has been exaggerated, at the time there was not 2 million armenians in the east. What constitutes a genocide? Genocide is a systematic killing of certain race. This did not take place. In addition, you as others know Turks were massacred at the hands of the treasonous Armenians and Russians, and you cannot deny that. I have heard many stories and I am especially sure you have too. In essence, yes more Armenians might have died than Turkish, and because of this you are trying to blame the Turks for genocide, not so fast my friend. Does the number of dead decide what a genocide is? Does it matter, if 50 armenians died and 25 turks died? If it is genocide for one, than same holds true for the other side. In reality, according to many books and reports, more muslims were killed by the Armenians and Russians and these include turks, kurds and others.
The so-called Armenian genocide is creation of west which then was pursued by armenian propaganda for world to recognize. Why? It makes utter sense that West sided with the armenians in wwI, using Armenians to revolt against the Turks. Why? Well, to carve up the Ottoman Empire and make it ever so weak and get their hands on oil. A very logical argument. ANother reason, the hatred against the Muslims, this is a fact that has been around since Islam was created.
Talking about massacres, you cannot deny what ASALA have done either. Armenia constantly and still support terrorist activities, for example the PKK. This really shows how the Armenians lack honor, dignity or integrity. I even question if they even had those great characteristics from the beginning.
But you know what? You are going to have your version of history and i will have mine. But i sincerely believe that Armenians tried and still trying to distort history. It is a very severe crime to blame a whole nation as committing genocide.

Raven,


You did not answer any of the questions I have posted previously. Please do not self repeat. If you repeat a lie many times, it will not become a truth, denial is not a solution. Sooner or later Turkey will recognize Armenian genocide, at least it should do it with dignity, you cant run from facing the facts.

Please answer the questions I have previously posted. I want to hear the opinion of a common Turk like you.

[This message has been edited by surorus (edited January 31, 2001).]

sorcerer,

the info you have provided that east of Turkey was all Armenian is subjective. How can so many muslim die at the hands of Armenians then? You answer me!!!Denial, you are the denialist, why don't you look at history again and not what Armenian gov't fabricates. Armenians have time and time have distorted history. Your arguments are lame and mundane and has no importance what so ever. I really do not want to get into it with you, it will be waste of my precious time. Lies, propaganda, hatred, dishonesty have infested you and many Armenians. Once again, it is a grave crime to commit a nation on falsified fabricated documents. Good day....

As far as numbers are concerned I have only heard of 1.5 million, even though there could be exagerrations. The number of Armenians that died is not nearly as compelling as the percentage that died. Even RAVEN claimed that at that time there hardly were 2 million Armenians living there. 1.5 million out of 2 million is 75%. Even if only 1 million Armenians died that would have been 50%. Regardless of how the numbers are twisted 50% to 75% of the Armenian world population was killed. Can you imagine a nation losing 50% to 75% of its people within a few years?

Raven, you bring popular arguments of Turkish governments; it wasn’t a genocide, Armenians killed Turks, etc. Let’s define what is genocide. According to UN convention, posted in MJ’s link the following constitute genocide:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I think if you go down the list you can check all of them. It’s not a matter of how many Armenians were killed, 300,000 as Ottoman government claims or 1,5 million as Armenians claim. Any single human life has a value. Killing helpless people for no reason is just inhumane.

Let me go down the list and try to answer some of the questions you have raised. First of all, West did not side with Armenians, but Armenians sided with the West. I personally don’t think that was one of the wisest choices we have made, but certainly it didn’t give Ottoman government a pretense to systematically annihilate and relocate the whole Armenian population residing in Eastern Ottoman Empire. Are you trying to justify the killing and relocation of the entire Armenian population? It’s the same thing as justifying killing, which I don’t think can be justified under any circumstances. It’s a moral issue. Do you think killing is a right way of settling disputes? I personally don’t.

Let’s clarify the issue of PKK that you brought up. I personally support them. They fight for the liberation of their people. Why is southeast Turkey the least developed part of the country, is it because it’s populated mainly by Kurds? Is there discriminatory allocation of economic resources in Turkey? Have you ever asked yourself about reasons why PKK exists. I think because Kurds think they can do better on their own. Get an October 92 (I think, I am not sure) of National Geographic and read about Kurds and their living conditions in Turkey. You won’t be so surprised about the existence of separatist movement.

Regarding ASALA, my Turkish friend, I don’t justify their actions. I feel sorry for the families that lost their smart sons and daughters. Please accept the apologies from us. When I go to church next time I will light a candle for their souls. I think you should understand that activities of ASALA were from frustration, not revenge. It was from the feeling of being helpless and the need to be heard.

I hope my Turkish friend I was able to give you the answers to some of the questions you have raised. By the way we don’t hate you. Hatred is for the weak people. We are the first Christian people and know how to forgive; yet we never forget.

Raven,

I am trying to still see what is your underlying statement, or what is it based on.

We, Armenians, with the rest of the civilized world, hold the government of Ottoman Turkey responsible for the Genocide of Armenians. I would like to know who does Raven hold responsible for the alleged Genocide of the Turks? I have also not received an answer to the question who has subjected the Turks to a Genocide, where, when and what sources is this information based on?

We are not talking here about Turks killing Armenians. That has taken place throughout the seven centuries of the Turkish yoke. We are talking here about the systematic and organized effort of then Turkish government to resolve once and forever the “Armenian headache.” But recall that Armenians were not the invaders of Turkish lands, but the opposite.

I also would like to put one very significant fact in context: the Genocide of Armenians has occurred not just in the eastern provinces of Ottoman Turkey, but also in Western, and the casualties in Western provinces have been much more substantial, since it has been more difficult for them to organize self-defense, or to retreat to Eastern Armenia.

If one can rightly assert that the Eastern Armenians have sided with the Russians, this type of claim about the Armenian population of the Western provinces of Ottoman Turkey would be total falsification. In fact, Western Armenian subjects of Ottoman Empire have fatefully fought against the Russians in the structures of Ottoman Army. Even there, many Armenian brigades have been disarmed by the Turkish superiors, and have been destroyed. Additionally, as a rule, human waves of poorly armed Armenian detachments of Turkish army (while the other detachments have been armed properly) have been thrown into the battlefield, so that to be destroyed by the Russians.

A couple of other comments: Armenians have served fatefully (and wrongly in my view) their Turkish invaders for about seven centuries. They have built Turkey, they have run its economy, they have given a human face to the most inhumane and rootless empire in the history of the world. Don’t take my words, but read Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, for example. They have plugged into the task of creation of Turkish culture from nothing - at the expense of Armenian culture. They have also been at the forefronts of the revolution of the Young Turks, frequently sacrificing their security, and the security of the loved ones, to save their revolutionary brothers of Turkish origin - those who would come later to systematically annihilate Armenians.

Additionally, the Armenian massacres by Turks have not started during the WW1. The first large-scale massacre of Armenians in Turkey has taken place in 1890's - in Adana. There was no suspicion of Russian orientation at that time. In fact, it was a massacre organized with the purpose of testing the reaction of European countries, with the purpose of expending the systematic annihilation of Armenians later on.

Additionally, the spirit of siding with the Russians has been generated by Ottoman Turkey. The Armenian agenda of the first half and the early second half of the 19th century has not gone beyond the requests of cultural reforms, which subsequent Sultans have promised to implement (see the San Stefano and Berlin conferences). However no promises have been kept, and the conditions of Armenians have gotten much worse.

Additionally, Armenians of the Eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire have been living on that territory for more than 2000 years. That they would have liked to liberate their lands from the Turkish yoke should be pretty natural. Arabs, Serbs, etc, have succeeded, and we also had that right. The revolts are characteristic to all empires. There is nothing strange or illegitimate about the Armenian revolt of the Eastern provinces of Turkey. That kind of revolt is justified even in modern day conventions accepted by all members of the UN, including Turkey. However, while one can recognize the interest of empires to suppress the revolts, the systematic attempt of annihilation of an entire nation on such scale, including the children, women and elderly, is an unprecedented phenomenon in the history of empires.

Finally, as I have said before, we in this forum have no vested interest in persuading you in something, which is self-evident. As I have claimed before, the recognition of the basic fact of the Armenian Genocide is an issue of your own personal and national morality. If you can recognize it, and put it behind – good for you. That will only help us to build healthy relations. You may also continue to deny, and thus to continue to be a participant of the Genocide. That is also up to you. If you have any credible arguments to provide, beyond the absurd logic “If Turks have committed Genocide, Armenians have done it, too,” I would still be eager to hear.


And less words we use, more conscisely perhaps we can express ourselves. So, I suggest you to move now into the domain of logic and facts.

P.S. I think a partial answer to your question as how come Muslims have outnumberd Armenians in eastern provinces can be found in on of the forms of Genocide that Turks have subjected Armenians throughout centuries. It is formulated in the paragraph e) of the definition of the Genocide. Anather explanaition is this: one doesn't have to be very skillfull to produce a lot of children. That's is not difficult. The dificulty is in raising these children. Now, when you live at the expense of other nations, by ploundering their wealth, and confoscating the outcome of their labor, you decellerate the growth rate of these nations, but accelerate yours. I hope this is easy to accept.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 31, 2001).]

All the information you have conveyed in the last 4 to 5 posts are biased. It all comes from what Armenians and western countries have fabricated. This is the last post, i am not wasting my time here with such denialist people; people filled with hatred, anger....Quoth the Raven nevermore.....