28 replies to this topic

[Rog]

"How are we Saved?
We are saved by becoming true and good members of the Kingdom of Christ.
It is impossible to become a true member of the Kingdom of Christ without sincerely believing in the truths of the Creed. But this belief itself is not enough. In order to be a true member of the Kingdom of Christ, one must pray and receive the grace of God in Baptism, the Divine Liturgy and the other sacraments. We must also do works pleasing to God." Quote taken from "The Faith of the Armenian Church" by Hagop Nersoyan from the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church of North America

I ask, is this teaching according to the Bible? I will give a brief response.

According to the Bible we must be true members of the Kingdom of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 that he must be born again, a spiritual rebirth in order to be a member of the Kingdom of Christ (John 3:1-5). BUT the Bible states that salvation is not attained by our good works or by any other means (i.e. baptism, liturgy, sacraments) EXCEPT by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast"). The Bible states also in Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit."

The Apostle Paul wrote the book of Galatians to refute this error of teaching that works save. He calls this "another gospel" (Galatians 1:6-8). Paul states that man is not justified by works but through Christ (Galatians 2:16).

How then can we be saved? By believing in God's one and only son, Jesus Christ the Lord who came as sinless man (Colossians 2:9) and died a cruel death on a cross for our sins (Romans 5:8). He rose from the grace on the third day to prove that He was God (1 Corinthians 5:4). Jesus calls us to repent of our wicked ways and to follow Him daily (Luke 9:23) and to confess Him as Lord (Romans 10:9 "If we confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.")

What about works then? We do not do good works to save us, we do good works because we are saved. We do not live a righteous life to be saved, we live a righteous life because we are saved. It proves that we have been born again. Only those who truly love God and worship Him will obey Him (John 14:15, 21).

I do not believe that the Armenian Church's doctrine of salvation is Biblical (according to the Scriptures).

Grace and Peace,

Roger

[Arpa]

Dear Rog, welcome to the forum.
Can you tell us what Armenians have said about our "salvation" instead of quoting "jewish" sources?
I don't know how old you are and when you discovered that Book of Lies, many of us have gone through that stage in life.
Listen! I have three words for you-
GET A LIFE!!!
And realize that the Jews, be it Paul or Peter don't control the revoltion of the Sun, and that it revolves, and that the era of burning Copernicus on the stake who dared say otherwise are over, who said the Earth revolves around the Sun, or, as you may want us to believe thatand that the world is flat, and was "created in 5 days, where was I during those 5 days? Was I out fishing with Mosjan? that nowadays the sabbath is Saturday when many of us cut the grass and Sunday is the day of the Lord Jesus? ( do you know about the movie -"Nine to Five" with Dolly Parton?) 6 days. Many an Armenian scientist has written about how the Earth revolves around the Sun. And now you come here to tell us how the world was created in 6 days, it is flat and it is the center of the universe?
Anania Shirakatsi comes to mind.

Edited by Arpa, 13 April 2008 - 10:44 AM.

[Rog]

Dear Rog, welcome to the forum.
Can you tell us what Armenians have said about our "salvation" instead of quoting "jewish" sources?
I don't know how old you are and when you discovered that Book of Lies, many of us have gone through that stage in life.
Listen! I have three words for you-
GET A LIFE!!!
And realize that the Jews, be it Paul or Peter don't control the revoltion of the Sun, and that it revolves, and that the era of burning Copernicus on the stake who dared say otherwise are over, who said the Earth revolves around the Sun, or, as you may want us to believe thatand that the world is flat, and was "created in 5 days, where was I during those 5 days? Was I out fishing with Mosjan? that nowadays the sabbath is Saturday when many of us cut the grass and Sunday is the day of the Lord Jesus? ( do you know about the movie -"Nine to Five" with Dolly Parton?) 6 days. Many an Armenian scientist has written about how the Earth revolves around the Sun. And now you come here to tell us how the world was created in 6 days, it is flat and it is the center of the universe?
Anania Shirakatsi comes to mind.

Arpa,

With all due respect, I quoted specifically from the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church of North America on what the Armenian Church believes on salvation. I then contrasted their views with the Bible to show that I do not believe that they are correct in their interpretation on salvation.

My life is dedicated as a servant to my Lord Jesus Christ, who died for sinners so that we may have eternal life. I hope and pray that you will come to the knowledge of the Savior. John 3:16, "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Roger

[Arpa]

"How are we Saved?
We are saved by becoming true and good members of the Kingdom of Christ.
===
Roger

Dear Roger,
Above you have used the word "kingdom" several times and quoted passages including the word.
Which Kingdom Hall** do you subscribe to?
Have not the era of kings and kingdoms, as in Kng Tigran long bit the dustbin of history??
If you are a "witness" of jewhovah", please do tell us when and where you met "jewhovah" and what you "witnessed". Were you the one on Mt. Sinai warming your cockles at the "burning bush"? in American parlance "bush" is often used to describe the pubic hair, be it male or female.
**"Kingdom Hall" is the euphemism that jehovaha's witnesses use to describe their place of assembly.
Available at internet sources and more;

"Kingdom Hall is the term for a meeting place for Jehovah's Witnesses. The term was first suggested in 1935 by Joseph Franklin Rutherford, then president of the Watch Tower Society, for a building in Honolulu, Hawaii. Jehovah's Witnesses use Kingdom Halls for the majority of their worship and Bible instruction"

Edited by Arpa, 14 April 2008 - 12:51 PM.

[Rog]

Dear Roger,
Above you have used the word "kingdom" several times and quoted passages including the word.
Which Kingdom Hall** do you subscribe to?
Have not the era of kings and kingdoms, as in Kng Tigran long bit the dustbin of history??
If you are a "witness" of jewhovah", please do tell us when and where you met "jewhovah" and what you "witnessed". Were you the one on Mt. Sinai warming your cockles at the "burning bush"? in American parlance "bush" is often used to describe the pubic hair, be it male or female.
**"Kingdom Hall" is the euphemism that jehovaha's witnesses use to describe their place of assembly.
Available at internet sources and more;

I am a Bible believing Christian NOT a Jehovah's Witnesses. Please reread my post and see that I quoted from the Dioceses of the Western Armenian Church.

[Arpa]

I am a Bible believing Christian NOT a Jehovah's Witnesses. Please reread my post and see that I quoted from the Dioceses of the Western Armenian Church.

Maybe you should go to library and see how many more books there are.
THY KINGDOM COME?
ԵԿԵՍՑԷ ԱՐՔԱՅՈՒԹԻՒՆ ՔՈ?
It is immaterial whether you subscribe to the “kingdom halls” of the yehova’s , whether you are a mormon*, catholic, Apostolic, Baptist or Methodist .
Look up and see how many times you quoted passages with the word “kingdom” in them.
I don’t know where you have been these past couple of centuries. I don’t know whether you know the word “kingdom” is a swear word.
Did you see the latest news where we learned that Nepal is no longer a “kingdom”?
Where are the kingdoms of Armenia, Rome, Byzantium, France, Germany, Russia, furkey, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, India, Congo and Zimbabwe and some of the so called, kingdoms that remain (Saudia, England, etc.) are a joke, a masquerade where people dress up in funny costumes, not unlike those funny costumes at church where the “king/queen” is nothing but a “court jester
Kingdom? King? Which king are we talking about? King Kong? Rodney King? Don King? Larry King or Martin Luther King? Or "King of the Mountain" (a silly childish game)
Are you implying that Armenia become a “kingdom” with those dressed in those funny black robes and crowned with those ridiculous headgears move to Yerevan and rule the country with the mumbo jumbo that you quoted from that “Book of Comedy“ with god-/yehova as a standup comic with Jesus as his side kick?
* Look what is happening in Eldorado Texas where those morons, fifty year old pedophiles who rape children younger than their own grandchildren claim to follow the "word" of a higher "king". Any crime is "sacred" as long as it is attributed to that "king in heaven"? Did not the furks massacre us reciting "bismillah/in the name of allah"?***
Mr. Rip Van Winkle wake up! This the 21st century when mankind has gone further than the moon and the stars, yet no sign of that “bearded old man”
** Who asked why god is always portrayed as an old “MALE person”? Have they not herd of Anahit, Nane, Astghik, Athena, Aphrodite and …. many more?
*** If you insist that god/yehiva qristos is king, then how can you blame Mehmet who says "allah ou akbar/allah is greater"?

Edited by Arpa, 15 April 2008 - 09:22 AM.

[Arpa]

"How are we Saved?
===
Grace and Peace,

Roger

Saved?
Saved from what?
When Jesus recited those words "but deliver us from E-V-I-L". Did he know that other four letter word "FURK", spelled t-u-r-k?
How did he "deliver" us from that EVIL (Hamid)?
"Mot e garoun@, shutov k@ hasni." Keep going to church and recite "but deliver us from evil/Ապա չարեն մեզ ազատէ" over and over again!! See if you get a phone call or an e-mail in response to your plea/prayer from god/jesus/king @yahoo.com!!

Edited by Arpa, 15 April 2008 - 09:46 AM.

[Rog]

Saved?
Saved from what?
When Jesus recited those words "but deliver us from E-V-I-L". Did he know that other four letter word "FURK", spelled t-u-r-k?
How did he "deliver" us from that EVIL (Hamid)?
"Mot e garoun@, shutov k@ hasni." Keep going to church and recite "but deliver us from evil/Ապա չարեն մեզ ազատէ" over and over again!! See if you get a phone call or an e-mail in response to your plea/prayer from god/jesus/king @yahoo.com!!

Saved from the wrath of God and eternal punishment.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

And the good news,

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[Ashot]

Rog I have an interesting argument - or shall I say questions for you.

Let's say there is this guy and he does not believe in GOD, but everything in his life he has done has been good, he has never hurt anyone, nor has he ever done anything wrong including lieing.

Here is the question Rog... Is this guy going to be judged and sent to hell as well?

[Rog]

Rog I have an interesting argument - or shall I say questions for you.

Let's say there is this guy and he does not believe in GOD, but everything in his life he has done has been good, he has never hurt anyone, nor has he ever done anything wrong including lieing.

Here is the question Rog... Is this guy going to be judged and sent to hell as well?

Ashot,

Thanks for the question. According to the Bible, all men will be judged and just because one does not believe in God, it does not mean God does not exist.

You asked about a person who does not believe in God but lives a moral life. The answer lies in the standard we are holding him to. I admit, there are many people who do not believe in God but they are extremely moral people. The flaw though happens when we judge based on man’s standards and not Gods.

According to the Bible, all men are sinners. The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). And God’s standard is this, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all (James 2:10).” Sin is not just described as those big things, like murder, but has do to with both thoughts and action. For example, Jesus said that even if a man looks at a woman in lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart (Matt 5:28). Could anyone really live up to this perfect standard where in their entire life they did not commit one sin in thought or action? The reason for the high standard is to show us that we cannot attain perfection.

Since we can never be good enough to be right with God, there must be a solution and that is the good news of the New Testament. There was only one perfect (sinless) man and that was Christ. He lived a perfect life, died on a cross, was buried and raised on the third day. He lived the perfect life that we could not and when he died on the cross, he paid the penalty of judgment for us. For those who admit their sin and turn to Christ for forgiveness, and embrace him as their Lord and Savior will be forgiven by God and not be judged (Romans 10:9).

If anyone could be moral enough for God to accept them, than Christ died in vain.

Yes, this hypothetical man will be judged, because no man can be absolutely perfect. And if he is not perfect, than he has to deal with his sin problem, and there are only two ways, either through the perfection of Christ or by his own perfection.

To summarize, the Bible puts it this way:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Grace and peace,

Roger

[Ashot]

Rog, can you ever put your thoughts in simple words? so basically what you aer saying is if someone doesn't believe in God and has not commited the known bad stuff, but in his mind and heart he has committed sins, then he shall be sent to hell?

So what you are saying is God doesn't accept those who don't belive that God exists? This is beyond my beliefs brother, by the way, what about those who belive in God, have done their prayers, have gone to church all their lives and have committed bad stuff and yet believing in God they still do more and more sins, what about them? are they going to be accepted in to the heaven rather then those who have not committed so many sins?

[Sip]

Rog, can you ever put your thoughts in simple words?

I was thinking the same thing. It is amazing how much he typed for a simple question yet said nothing. Avoiding answering good questions like what you asked, Ashot, is a really bad sign about what is really going on in my opinion.

We recently had an Armenian guy show up here who was a devout muslim. It is absolutely amazing how almost exactly the same vague, non-coherent, extremely flowery style was what he resorted to when asked very specific and direct questions.

Rog, you have already avoided an entire line of questions regarding creation in another thread. Now you are trying to dodge judgement questions. How is one to take you seriously when you are not ready to answer questions directly? Isn't that a sign that you are either not sure, or are affraid to defend the stance that you really want to believe?

[Sip]

By the way, to summarize what I am saying, you can't simply answer every question with "you must believe in the Perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom salvation blah blah blah." That is NOT a valid answer to every question.

So here is Ashot's question again: Let us suppose the Bible is the Ultimate Truth. You have person A and person B, let's even pretend they are identical twins who live almost IDENTICALL lives with one exception: Person A is a devout Christian while person B never prays and doesn't believe in God. Otherwise, they do exactly the same things .. they work hard .... they donate significant portions of their time, money, and energy to charity ... they never harm a single other person or animal their entire lives. Does the Bible say person A will go to Heaven and person B will go to Hell?

Edited by Sip, 22 April 2008 - 01:10 AM.

[Rog]

Rog, can you ever put your thoughts in simple words? so basically what you aer saying is if someone doesn't believe in God and has not commited the known bad stuff, but in his mind and heart he has committed sins, then he shall be sent to hell?

So what you are saying is God doesn't accept those who don't belive that God exists? This is beyond my beliefs brother, by the way, what about those who belive in God, have done their prayers, have gone to church all their lives and have committed bad stuff and yet believing in God they still do more and more sins, what about them? are they going to be accepted in to the heaven rather then those who have not committed so many sins?

Ashot,

I'm sorry if I was confusing, I did not mean to be.

Yes, I am saying that if a person has not committed the known "bad stuff but has in his mind and heart committed sins", he will go to hell. What I was trying to show you in my last response is that all men are sinners.

Getting into heaven is not a matter of how many sins you have committed. God does not outweigh the good with the bad. People do not get into heaven because they go to Church, do their prayers, and act good. There are many in the Church who are utter hypocrites and they say they believe in God, but their life does not show it.

So how does a person get into heaven?

I want to give you an illustration and I hope it will make more sense. Say you are speeding on the freeway and you get stopped by a cop. He stops you and you admit that you have broken the law. The penalty for breaking the law is him giving you a ticket. Say the ticket costs you $100.00. But instead of you having to pay for the ticket, the cop reaches in his pocket and gives you the $100.00 to pay the ticket. Even though you do not have to pay the penalty for the ticket, you still are guilty. But instead of paying the fine, someone else paid it for you.

This is exactly how God deals with us. We have a penalty for the sins we commit that must be paid. The penalty is eternal death. But Jesus Christ paid the debt for us when he died on a cross and although we are really guilty, we are no longer held guilty in the eyes of God. Christ paid the penalty for us. Our job is to admit we are sinners, believe in Christ as the payment for our sins, and to live a life that reflects that.

How do people get into heaven? By being forgiven of their sins, not by trying to be good enough.


Roger

[Rog]

By the way, to summarize what I am saying, you can't simply answer every question with "you must believe in the Perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom salvation blah blah blah." That is NOT a valid answer to every question.

So here is Ashot's question again: Let us suppose the Bible is the Ultimate Truth. You have person A and person B, let's even pretend they are identical twins who live almost IDENTICALL lives with one exception: Person A is a devout Christian while person B never prays and doesn't believe in God. Otherwise, they do exactly the same things .. they work hard .... they donate significant portions of their time, money, and energy to charity ... they never harm a single other person or animal their entire lives. Does the Bible say person A will go to Heaven and person B will go to Hell?

Ok, I will give you a simple answer. Yes, person A will go to heaven and person B will go to hell.

[Rog]

By the way, to summarize what I am saying, you can't simply answer every question with "you must believe in the Perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom salvation blah blah blah." That is NOT a valid answer to every question.

So here is Ashot's question again: Let us suppose the Bible is the Ultimate Truth. You have person A and person B, let's even pretend they are identical twins who live almost IDENTICALL lives with one exception: Person A is a devout Christian while person B never prays and doesn't believe in God. Otherwise, they do exactly the same things .. they work hard .... they donate significant portions of their time, money, and energy to charity ... they never harm a single other person or animal their entire lives. Does the Bible say person A will go to Heaven and person B will go to Hell?

Bye the way, here are a couple Bible verses for you to support my position.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

and

Titus 3:4-6 But -- "When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, 5 he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. 6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior."

and

Ephesians 2:8-9 "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

Edited by Rog, 22 April 2008 - 08:38 PM.

[Dynaman]

Well said Rog.....one soul at a time...

Aram

[Sip]

Ok, I will give you a simple answer. Yes, person A will go to heaven and person B will go to hell.

FINALLY somebody who has the guts to admit what they really believe.

So now that you said that, I'll let Ashot tell you how stupid that is.

[MosJan]

Ok, I will give you a simple answer. Yes, person A will go to heaven and person B will go to hell.

i have a question

what happens if i have a multiple personality - one of my personalities is believer, his in church 3 or 4 times a week, prays and helps others to find the believe
but the other one is just a jack ass lazzzy who sleeps till1pm on Sundays, finds any excuse to not even pray or go church

now will this person go to hell or to heaven ?

please understand me correct, i'm not making fun of you nor your believe

i'm a Christian and a Believer

[MosJan]

Arpa Sip and Ashot why are your bashing them ???

no good
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