Jump to content


Who are our closest relatives?


  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#21 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 04:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by surorus:
May be Iranians are closer to us.

Now, Armenia has good relations with Iran, but in past Armenians had suffered from Iran a lot too. In 17-19 centuries Armenian and other Caucasian girls were hot selling items in humane markets throughout Persia and Arabia. In have read and heard from grandparents that Turks, Kurds, and Persians used to systematically invade Armenian villages and town to rob people and capture young girls to sell to sultans and sheikhs later.



It's not true, from the 17th century on Armenians were a privilaged ethnic group in Iran, because they were very close to the Safavid royal court.

But during the Qajar dynasty in the 19th century, the position of Armenians marginalized, but still were better off than the southern persians, the Gilakis and the Georgians.

The same story I have heared from the Georgia's Georgians that the Iranian Georgians were slaves of the Persians, it's totall nonsense, I have family trees and know exactly who were my ancestors in Georgia, If I tell them that i am from royal house they get angry at me too, but it is true, my ancestory goes back to the Georgian elite, of Bagtrationi, wsome say even to Parnavaz Parthian court, but stiill some say that Bagrationi kings were themselves decendants of Parnavaz (also written as farnabaz), parthian (the same dynasty as Trdat/Tirdad sp?)
And the fact that my ancestors were in the safavide royal court is a fact that those Georgia's georgians can't stand it, however they know that I and the Iranian Georgians as general don't feel necessarily suerior to the Georgians of Caucasus, because our royal ancestory, but for them truth aches, their problem actuaklly.

#22 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 04:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
Still your history doesn't connect the Armenians with the Assyrians.



Iranyar,

Yes as I said I would take your words about Assyrian because I don't have a lot of info about Assyria and Assyrians.

As you know the subject we are talking about can not be 100% precise. Different linguist, historian, and archeologist disagree about same topic.

However, to me Armenians close to Greek then to Persians is more believable. And I think the UCLA site is truthful.

#23 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 04:40 PM

No one is picturing Iran as being ideal in its relations with Armenians, heck even Armenians have not been ideal with each other! But of all the nations in the world, Iran has shown itself to be Armenia's best friend. Also, the linguists be damned, I am convinced our language is a branch, albeit a unique one of the Indo-Iranian group of Indo European languages. I see no really resemblance to Greek. When you have such basic cognates like mart/mard, chors/chahar, words that cannot be borrowings, but are basic, there can be no doubt. I think any attempt to potray it otherwise has some kind of ulterior political motives. Don't be surprised if next the profs. at Ankara U. come out with a study claiming Armenian is really a Turkic language(If they haven't already!)! They have already done so claiming the Native American languages are related to Turkish, I am not kidding!

#24 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 04:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by surorus:
Iranyar,

Yes as I said I would take your words about Assyrian because I don't have a lot of info about Assyria and Assyrians.

As you know the subject we are talking about can not be 100% precise. Different linguist, historian, and archeologist disagree about same topic.

However, to me Armenians close to Greek then to Persians is more believable. And I think the UCLA site is truthful.




Armenian language is more related to Persain than to Greek, there si general consensuus on it, however religiously Armenians are more close to the Greeks.

I asked you if you knew Armenian? If you really compare Armenian with the pahlevi (ancestor of new Persian, also language of Arshakuni dynasty of the Armenians) you can see the similarity.

halfbreed is right, the Turks are making a lot of Theories, they have allways claimed that the mesopotamins and sumerians were Turks, last month they claimed that the dravidian (lets say black) Indians were Turks, last week they said that the native Americans were Turks, and the Aztec civilization and their language was Turkic. Untill now they have said that the Armenians are not native to Armenia, but insttead they were a nomdic people, who came from western Anatolia and Trakia. Now that Armenia has established ittself as an independent country their best option is that they say Armenian is a Turkic language, I believe Steve in this respect, today on the Tajik forum an Uzbek or Tajik guy told me, that in Germany a Turkish professor who was giving lecture has said that Armenian is a Turkish (even not TurkIC) klanguge, as example of the Turkish words he gave "Khachadurian" which as I know has nothing to do with Turkish language. I 'm laughing at the fact that a more sillier example he couldn't have found

#25 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 04:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
It's not true, from the 17th century on Armenians were a privileged ethnic group in Iran, because they were very close to the Safavid royal court.


Iranyar,


As you know in 17 century Armenia was divided between Ottomans and Persians. However Artsakh unlike rest of the Azerbaijan fought Persians and Azeries and was relatively independent. My ancestors fought Persians until Russians came and kicked Persians out of South Caucasus.
The peace treaty was singed in my home district between Persia and Russia.

"Early last century a peace treaty was signed between Russia & Iran.
With this treaty they ended the bloody war that lasted from 1804 - 1813."


visit this site: http://www.armenians...ahen/index.html



[This message has been edited by surorus (edited December 13, 2000).]

#26 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 05:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by surorus:
Iranyar,


As you know in 17 century Armenia was divided between Ottomans and Persians. However Artskakh unlike rest of the Azerbaijan fought Persians and Azeries and was relatively independent. My ancestors fought Persians until Russians came and kicked Persians out of South Caucasus.
The peace treaty was singed in my home district between Persia and Russia.

"Early last century a peace treaty was signed between Russia & Iran.
With this treaty they ended the bloody war that lasted from 1804 - 1813."


visit this site: http://www.armenians...ahen/index.html


[This message has been edited by surorus (edited December 13, 2000).]


Persia , Azerbaijan,Aran half of Kurdistan and half of Armenia and 3/4 of Georgia and 1/3 of dagestan belonged to the safavid empire. After the Afghans and Turks united and deafeted the Safavides, Gharabgh resisted and keot its relative autonomy, but in the 19th century the Qajars (who not only to caucasus but also to Shiraz, Kerman, Mazandaran, and Tehran did bloody things, didn't like it and ofcourse they did it in their own way.
Georgia and Azerbaijan + Gharabgh (except Naxjevan and Talysh) went in the early 19th century to Russia (the treaty) but armenia, talysh and Näxjevan, went to Russia after the Second Qajar-Russian war in 1939 (I dont remember the exact year, but it was in thirties of the 19th century).

BTW I wonder if You are Armand Kupelian (if you don't like to say it publicly you can allways e_mail me).

#27 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 08:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
Persia , Azerbaijan,Aran half of Kurdistan and half of Armenia and 3/4 of Georgia and 1/3 of dagestan belonged to the safavid empire. After the Afghans and Turks united and deafeted the Safavides, Gharabgh resisted and keot its relative autonomy, but in the 19th century the Qajars (who not only to caucasus but also to Shiraz, Kerman, Mazandaran, and Tehran did bloody things, didn't like it and ofcourse they did it in their own way.
Georgia and Azerbaijan + Gharabgh (except Naxjevan and Talysh) went in the early 19th century to Russia (the treaty) but armenia, talysh and Näxjevan, went to Russia after the Second Qajar-Russian war in 1939 (I dont remember the exact year, but it was in thirties of the 19th century).

BTW I wonder if You are Armand Kupelian (if you don't like to say it publicly you can allways e_mail me).


Iranyar,

I dont know who Armand Kupelian is, and he better be a good man.

As to the rest of your story with phony dates and empire names, I say NO COMMENT FRIEND, IT SAYS IT ALL.

#28 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2000 - 10:10 PM

Iranyar,
The present territories of Armenia, Nakhijevan, Artsakh(Karabagh), as well as a part of Dagestan and Azerbaijan(the latters referred as Caucasian Tatars) were passed to Russia by the Turkmenchay Treaty in 1828 and stayed within the territory of Czarist Russia and Soviet Union until 1991. Georgia was annexed by Russia in the early 19-th century.
Actually in 1722-1725 Zangezour and Artsakh (Karabagh) fought a simultanious war againts Sefevid Iran and Ottoman Turkey. The leader of Armenians in Zangezur was Georgian king's amirspalasar Davit Beg who brought the Armenian officers then serving in the Georgian army with him. The leaders of Artsakh were Melik-Shahnazaryans and others who organised an effective resistance by builting armoured bastions in Shousha and elsewhere.
Do you consider Sefevids to be Persians? They were decendants of Ak-koyounlou, who were a pure turik tribe somewhere near present Karakalpakia in Uzbegistan.

#29 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2000 - 06:40 AM

To Surorus:

No Armand Kupelian is not a good man at all, he is ashamed to say he is Armenian, he introduces himself as an American, and forthe phony dates and empire names, also Berj said the same thing, as in every book (except those Pan-Turkist propaganda) you can read the same.

Berj:
Your first part of message I agree with, the second half not, the Safavid were not Persians, but also not akkoyunlu's in fact akkoyunlu was an Oghuz Turcik tribe (I guess not kararkalpaks, because they are related to other Turkic tribes like the Kazakhs). The Akkoyunlu were the members of qizilbash squadrans not the safavide court, actually the Safavid tried to restrict the power of Qizilbash and during their reign many akkoyunlu's escaped the Safaviod empire.
The early Sfavid were from Ardabilin the Iranian Azerbaijan, but their Ancestors were refugee from the Western Kurdistan in the ottoman empire. the Later safavid kings were all mixed with the Georgians, for example Shah Abbas was half Georgian 1/* Kurd and 3/4 azeri, he had a Georgian wife and his sisters had georgian husband, so the next king was 3/4 georgian, actually the later Safavides were the Georgian Kinghouse, functioning as the empire.
So about the safavides we can say that the kings were a mixrure of Kurds, Azeri and Georgian (which Georgian elemnt overwhelmed) the army and administration offices were in the higher ranks Georgian and in the lower ranks azeri. while the ambassadors and trade delegations were Armenians. The Persians were mainly busy with litterature and science.

I become every time upset when people says that the safavid empire had nothing to do with the Georgians, after all so much evidences (my own family tree aside) I can say nothing more that my ancestors were decendant of the royal Georgian house, who ruled the safavide empire, but the other ethnic groups had also their part in that empire.
Also it is known that the safavid kings were fluent in Georgian, this in a time when Turkic languages were the most common among the kings and military. so I don't see any insentives that a non-Georgian learns Georgian so well that they speak it fluently, it only says that Georgian was the language they spoke within their family.

#30 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2000 - 11:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
Iranyar,
The present territories of Armenia, Nakhijevan, Artsakh(Karabagh), as well as a part of Dagestan and Azerbaijan(the latters referred as Caucasian Tatars) were passed to Russia by the Turkmenchay Treaty in 1828 and stayed within the territory of Czarist Russia and Soviet Union until 1991. Georgia was annexed by Russia in the early 19-th century.
Actually in 1722-1725 Zangezour and Artsakh (Karabagh) fought a simultanious war againts Sefevid Iran and Ottoman Turkey. The leader of Armenians in Zangezur was Georgian king's amirspalasar Davit Beg who brought the Armenian officers then serving in the Georgian army with him. The leaders of Artsakh were Melik-Shahnazaryans and others who organised an effective resistance by builting armoured bastions in Shousha and elsewhere.


Guys,


I am not really into all the tribes, nationalities, or family clans in Iran. For, Russians as well as Armenians Iran and Persia are used interchangeably. Even today while the whole word refers to Iran as Iran, Armenians refer to it as Parskastan.

Berj,

Would you please clarify with whom the treaty was signed in 1828? Russian and Armenian history books say it was signed between Russian empire and Persian empire (Iran).

Iranyar,

All I can say is that it is sad that you had nothing else to say, but get personal and try to push your story through assaults. I thought we were having a good conversation.

To all,

For most of you this treaty signed in 1828 is just one of thousands historical events that occurred during Armenian history. But for me it is something that made the district where I was born famous. The Guylistan castle where the treaty was singed was one of the most treasured historic sites in the whole district, and all the people knew about it and were proud of it. For my ancestors who for centuries fought for independence, the year of 1828 was a Victory year, though the war was won by Russians. Unfortunately, in 1992 in yet another fight for independence, Shahumian district was lost to Azerys. All the towns and villages including Guylistan castle were destroyed by Azerys so that there is nothing left for Armenians to recapture. I am proud to be from that heroic district the independence spirited people of which fought with all enemies whether Azerys, Persian, Turks, Kurds, Sefevids, Qajars or other Muslims.

#31 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2000 - 04:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by surorus:
Guys,

Iranyar,

All I can say is that it is sad that you had nothing else to say, but get personal and try to push your story through assaults. I thought we were having a good conversation.




To Surorus:
No Armand Kupelian is not a good man at all, he is ashamed to say he is Armenian, he introduces himself as an American, and forthe phony dates and empire names, also Berj said the same thing, as in every book (except those Pan-Turkist propaganda) you can read the same.


Well this is what I wrote if you see this as personall asault, soory for you, if you are Armand Kupelian no appology at all.
So it's better don't accuse people beacuse of nothing.

And I suggest you to learn Armenian language, because than you can learn much more about the lanfd of your ancestors, Hayastan and it's beautiful culture and litterature.

Cheers.




[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited December 14, 2000).]

#32 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2000 - 07:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
To Surorus:
No Armand Kupelian is not a good man at all, he is ashamed to say he is Armenian, he introduces himself as an American, and forthe phony dates and empire names, also Berj said the same thing, as in every book (except those Pan-Turkist propaganda) you can read the same.


Well this is what I wrote if you see this as personall asault, soory for you, if you are Armand Kupelian no appology at all.
So it's better don't accuse people beacuse of nothing.

And I suggest you to learn Armenian language, because than you can learn much more about the lanfd of your ancestors, Hayastan and it's beautiful culture and litterature.

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited December 14, 2000).]


Iranyar,


Go back and reread my posting, if you understand all English words. I both speak, write and read Armenian. I most of my life lived in Armenian town. What a hell are you taling about in your posting?

I wonder if you have even been in Armenia and lived among Armenians. It seems to me that you know more about Persians then about Armenians. Did you grew up in Iran? Did you go to Iranian school and studied Iranian version of history? Or may be you are a Parsik and I dont know about it. IF you are an Armenian explain me why you praise Persians so much and put them above Armenians? Yes we have some borrowed Persian words in spoken Armenian. Pay attenstion to that world, spoken, it is not the written, official, the one thought in shcool, or literate Armenian.

Finally, may be you dont get this, but for me if an Armenian ashaimed to say he is Armenian and someone like you implies whether I am that person is big personal insult. The fact that you quetioned it shows that you have nothing else to say but insult. And you know, friend, you wont go far by insulting people. Learn to respect to be respected!

take care Iranyar


[This message has been edited by surorus (edited December 14, 2000).]

#33 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2000 - 07:21 PM

WHoa, me of all people is stepping in to cool things off. First of all I am no historian, but I know the Safavids were definitely NOT Turkic, whatever they were. Surorus, you have very good posts, and Iranyar is a very intelligent person, as you are, so lets relax. First of all, Iranyar isn't "maybe a Parsik" he is Parsik! He is of Qashqai and Georgian background, a moslem(though not necessarily practicing) and a man with a great love for Armenia and Armenians. In the words of my buddy Rodney King "Can't we all get along?"

#34 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2000 - 07:35 PM

Just off the subject, i think the Rodney King situation was TERRIBLE.

i think Iranyar and Sourous (did ppl call you sourous couscous at school?) are both intelligent nice people who got the wrong end of the stick with each other.

Iranyar called me Turkish! Farsi, tell him!

Farsi while we are on the subject, I have a bone 2 pic

#35 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2000 - 05:41 AM

To Surorus,

Yes I lived among the Armenians. And the Persian words are not only in spoken Armenian, Armenian is structurally close to the neighbouring Iranian languages. I have never put Persians, above the Armenians or vice versa, rather I think the History should be read in an neutral and objective basis. I have not read "Persian" version of history, rather a neutral person reads many books on an issue, to be well informed, the latest book about Armenia I read was written by an Armenian in france.

You want to dissociate the Armenians with their neigbours. Otherwise didn't distinct people on the base of religion, of all the people you named, first of all the Safavid were a royal dynasty and not a people, secondly of all the other peoples you named there are moslem ones and non-moslem ones, there are practicing ones and non-practicing ones. It may sounds painfull to you, but there are moslem Armenians all centuries long, in Turkey, are you suggesting to kill them? Well this is something even the Turks not did. After all I like the other modernthinking persons in the 21st centuries don't give a damn about the reliougs differences, and if it's interesting for you my Georgian ancestors in Caucasus were Christians, they became shia moslem in the Safavid royal court, because it was the official policy of the safavid and they wanted to give people a good example, it may sounds stupid in the 21st centuries, but 17th century had another logic, the loyalties were different, the people were loyal to a Person who saw as an true example of a leader, and the religion was more important than the state and national or ethnic identification.

the answer to your other question: I am Dutch citizen I am already 14 years in Holland, I came as a youngster or child to Holland and had not formed yet political awareness in Iran. I am from Espahan governorate in Iran, where many Armenians live and the Centre of Armenian church of Iran is located (in Jolfa quarter of Espahan city) but I am myself Kashkai and Georgian (however it is believed that some of my family back in the history married with the Armenians and are Armenicized,also many of my family members speak Armenian) So Iam what I am , and please don't judge people on the base of your prejudices.

Kazza, EWhen I said that Kazza is Turk? I know you are half Armenian and half greek cypriot

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited December 15, 2000).]

#36 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2000 - 01:26 PM

Iranyar,

Armenian church, language, and culture are intertwined with each other. Armenian church has played a crucial role in both preserving Armenian language and culture. In fact it is the church that united Armenians after numerous divisions of Armenia between world powers of past. During invasions the priests were calling upon people to take their book instead of gold or jewelry and run. That is why today there is Matenadaran in Erevan with the richest in world collection of ancient manuscripts, and books.

I don't mean to offend anyone, In fact I am very neutral towards other religions and I respect Muslims or you name it who respect Christians, but the essence of being Armenian is being Christian. One can not claim to be Armenia if he or she is Muslim.

You know once I tried to explain a Muslim friend of mine that pork is tasty. After arguing for a while we both came to conclusion that Christians and Muslims see the world differently. I mean if you don't agree that the essence of being Armenian is being Christian, it will be pointless to argue and be better just to leave our postings to readers' judgement.

#37 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2000 - 03:33 PM

Religion can be an ethnic marker, but just ONE out of many, in the case of the Armenians, Armenian church has been important for the Armenian identity, but there are now also atheist Armenians, there are Catholic Armenians, and there are Muslim ones too, their name is Hemshinahay.

Armenian as an ethnic group have been present long before Christianity.

If you think I see the world with Muslim prejudice you are wrong.

But still I don't understand what has religion to do with the lingual affiliation of the Armenians?

Have you heraed of the Ossetians in Caucasus? They are orthodox christians without anyone doubts their Iranian language, or about the late Soghdians in Central Asia or the Late Xuzi's in Xuzestan south western Iran, they too have been Christians and no one doubted their Iranian language.
I also agree with halfbreed, the efforts to show Armenian not native into their linguistic environment (The reagion of the Iranin languages (Iranian languages is not necessarily Persian, but Persian is ONE languge belongs to the Western branch of the Iranian languages, southern group) But I think Armenian is a different branch it is neither Western Like Persian, nor eastern like Ossetian, but has features of both and also deviances from both, I think there have been before a third group, which the East Armenian, The west Armenian are the onliest survivors of it, Frygian in Central Anatolia may have been related to the armenian too, but still it is a mystery, at the moment I am very interested about to rediscovering Frygian language and see wether it was related to the Armenian, Persian, Ossetian, Soghdian etc... or not.

PS> the Iraniian languages were the largest Sub-Group of the indo European languages, spoken from the borders of China, tup till Ukrain and Anatolia, according to some linguists some Scythian people (East Iranianspeaking)even migrated as far as Northern India and Balkan till the shores of Danube River (Danub or Donau or Donau, is clearly an East Iranian word related to the language of the Ossetians in Caucasus.
Even the Alans and the Germanic West Gothians stablished a Kingdom in Sapin, (Gr. Mamigonian told me first) but it is for me unclear wether in Spain they kept their language for a long time.

is it not great enough?

To tell a long story, before I was too a Chavenist who bel8ieved that his people is Unique and belonged nowhere, but then I began to respect and reconsile with the history and geography, I learened that you should allways bear in mind the context (the historiacal context especially), In different times, in different places, the same concept would have different meanings.

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited December 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited December 15, 2000).]

#38 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2000 - 05:20 PM

Surorus jan, I hate to speak for you, but I think you prefer to believe Armenians to be closer linguistically etc. with Greeks, due to their religious commonality, am I right?
Of course, Armenians are also related to Greeks, but more distantly than Iranians. Look at these following cognates which are in standard Armenian, both written and spoken:

mart/mard bats/bawz chors/char mek/yek das/dah

These cannot be borrowings, as they are basic words that all cultures have autonomously. There are many more. Also do you know what the Pre-Islamic greeting of Persians (to royalty) was? Anushak! Sounds familiar?

#39 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2000 - 05:54 PM

chief there are many phonetical rules by which you can rotate from Armenian to West Iranian languages, for example gh in Armenian L in Persian ts/dz in Armenian s/z in Persian, H in Armenian P/F in Persian.

Examples Pogh/Pul, Pigh /Pil (Fil) Hayr/ Pedär in Persian Payr in Mazändärni , Poghos(boghos) Pulos , Hartsumem<--- harts --um- em miporsäm, mi =um harts=pors äm=em

Also many things we don't have it in Persian, but have been in Pahlevi (ancestor of Persian) and other Iranian languages yes(es in classical Armenian) ez in Kurdish, As in Ossetian, and Ez in Kurdish, es in Pahlevi.
Mets in Armenian, Mez in Pahlevi, still preserved in some other Iranian languages, but new Persian has lost it, but the word, Mähästi, Mäh-äst-i (= the greatest one)(Mazishta in the Avestic language of Zarathustra) is of the same root.

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited December 15, 2000).]

#40 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2000 - 06:45 PM

Iranyar and Half Breed,


Sorry guys I think I confused you with my last posting. My last reply has nothing to do with the relatives of Amenians language. I should have included a quote from Iranyars posting that there are Muslim Armenians.

quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
[It may sounds painfull to you, but there are moslem Armenians all centuries long, in Turkey, are you suggesting to kill them?


Iranyar,

Armenian church, language, and culture are intertwined with each other. Armenian church has played a crucial role in both preserving Armenian language and culture. In fact it is the church that united Armenians after numerous divisions of Armenia between world powers of past. During invasions the priests were calling upon people to take their book instead of gold or jewelry and run. That is why today there is Matenadaran in Erevan with the richest in world collection of ancient manuscripts, and books.

I don't mean to offend anyone, In fact I am very neutral towards other religions and I respect Muslims or you name it who respect Christians, but the essence of being Armenian is being Christian. One can not claim to be Armenia if he or she is Muslim.

You know once I tried to explain a Muslim friend of mine that pork is tasty. After arguing for a while we both came to conclusion that Christians and Muslims see the world differently. I mean if you don't agree that the essence of being Armenian is being Christian, it will be pointless to argue and be better just to leave our postings to readers' judgement.

now it is better




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users