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Who are Armenians related to?

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Posted 07 May 2000 - 09:26 AM

It seems from my research and reading that Armenians are a very unique people. Unlike Italians who are closely related to Spaniards, Portuguese and Romanians, Armenians seem to be a unique branch of people only distantly related to other Indo-Europeans.

I have read that they may be related to Albanians at least by language, but I have not seen any similarity. Also I have heard theories that they are closely related to the Romani peoples(Gypsies). Does anyone have any more information?

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Posted 08 May 2000 - 03:11 PM

your first paragraph is right, but the second one is WRONG!!
armenians are not related to Albanians or the Gypsies neither by the origin, nor by the language!!!
the Albanians form a unique group in the Indo-europian family, the gypsies have an Indian origin and they speak a language that is close to one of the Hindu-type languages of India, and are a part of a Indo-Europian family too.
the Armenians form a separate group!
Thousands of years ago, A.D. there were a lot of "armenian-speaking" nations, like Urartians, Hayasa, Biayna, etc.
But the Urartians conquered all of them and they all mixed and formed one nation - Armenians.

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Posted 08 May 2000 - 06:36 PM

Thanks for the reply Nvard. I still think the origins of Armenians are up to debate. A century ago anthropologists and linguists argued that Armenian was related closely to Persian, due to the number of loan words. I have heard about the theory that Armenians are descended from Urartians, but I have also heard that this is being questioned recently.

As for the Albanian connection, I have seen this mentioned in some older linguistic books. I was a double major in Spanish and linguistics so I do know a little about what I am talking about.

I think the Gypsy comment may have ruffled your feathers a bit, but there are numerous Armenian words in Romani and vice versa, plus there is some genetic similarity that has been found between the two groups, especially in disposition to certain diseases. However, Gypsies stick together, while Armenians are very disunited so maybe not! Perhaps this discomfort with any Gypsy connection is due to the fact that Turks and Azeris often refer to Armenians disparingly as "Tsigan" using the French word for gypsy.
I still think the jury is deliberating over this, much as with the Basque people of Spain (who knows maybe they will say we are related to them next! I have heard the language and it has a superficial similar sound to Armenian). I myself have always doubted that Armenian is even an Indo-European language, there seems to be no basic similarity. In Farsi mother is "madar" and brother is "baradar" clearly similar to German "mutter" and "broder" The Armenian words are a stretch at best. Oh well enough already, I am sure I have stirred up the anger of more people out there!

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Posted 08 May 2000 - 09:08 PM

Steve if you look at the chart of indo-european family of languages (you can found it in Webster's dictionary)you'll see that Armenian and Albanian languages have their own braches. Of course there will be similar words in some languges.That's why they belong to one family.
Here are some ciates from Britanica
It is generally agreed that Gypsy groups left India in repeated migrations and that they were in Persia by the 11th century, in southeastern Europe by the beginning of the 14th, and in western Europe by the 15th century
The Armenians are the descendants of a branch of the Indo-Europeans. The ancient Greek historians Herodotus and Eudoxus of Rhodes related the Armenians to the Phrygians--who entered Asia Minor from Thrace--and to the peoples of the ancient kingdom upon whom the Phrygians imposed their rule and language. Known to the Persians as Armina and to the Greeks as Armenioi, the Armenian people call themselves Hayq (singular: Hay) and their country Hayastan, and they look back to a folk hero, Hayk.

Actually in Armenia "tsigan" has the same meaning as gipsy (in Armenian the right word is 'gnchu') and I'm first time hearing that turks and azeris call us 'tsigans'. Where from did you get that information?

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Posted 09 May 2000 - 08:09 PM

Dear Garo
I enjoyed reading your reply. Amen baner vor asumes shaat jishta. However, I think theories are theories and can change based on new evidence. I am more and more convinced that Armenians are not Indo-European either in language or ethnicity. I have no real evidence to support it, but just a gut feeling. I think they might be a unique branch of humans, much like the Basques( I am not saying we are related to Basques!)

As for your question about Tsigan, I do occasionally go on to the "enemy's" websites. I went on to an Azerbaijani website where a person referred to us as "Those Tsiganes who call themselves Armenians." I think it is really sad how Armenians have made enemies with the Azeris and vice versa. I think both sides can equally argue claim to Karabagh so what good does it do? Is it worth the thousands who have died on both sides? The poor children who have suffered? WHat a waste! What stupidity just like with the Serbs and Albanians, the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland all Armenians can do is spew out hatred for the Azeris. I really do wish the Turks would acknowledge the genocide, it would make such a world of difference. But I cannot hate the average Turk. The few Turks I have met have been very kind to me, even knowing I am Armenian. And by the way, my great-grandfather who was from Gellibolu was saved by a Turkish family. He owed them his life. Remember that, there were thousands of Turks who intervened to save Armenians, even some governors, from what I have read. I know I am rambling, but I really pray for reconciliation, the Turks must confess the sins of their ancestors, but we must also forgive. Lav kherik!

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Posted 09 May 2000 - 08:48 PM

Steve there are many sources that explain where Armenians come from and they prove that with facts mostly but not feelings. Yes I agree that we are unique in some ways and that's why we have our separate branch among the indo-european nations. Of course you can have your own theory about our language and nation in general and maybe its a good chance to get your Ph.D. if you'll be able to prove them.
A few words about so called azeris. Actually they are called themselves azeri but the thing is that the real azeri nation has been lived and live in Iran, in so called South Azebaijan. This azeris get the name of one nation (azeris), the language of the others (turks) and the alphabet of anothers (slavons). And they call themselves a nation Posted Image
Do you know any world famous azerbaijanians?
Try to post a message on one of their websites to find out who they are realted to.
By the way I'm sorry for my English if it's not good enough.

[This message has been edited by Garo (edited May 11, 2000).]

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Posted 10 May 2000 - 03:57 PM

Barev Garo!

Ko anglerenu shaat lav a, chemanum inchu harstnumes es. You are correct about the facts. I would like to research and go for a PHD in linguistics. Perhaps then I can pursue my hunch. Before that though I must get my masters! I am right now a teacher of English as a second language.

As for the Azerbaijanis, of course I know about Azerbaijan in Iran, as I was born there. To my knowledge the Iranian Azeris and Armenians have lived together in relative peace for centuries, My great grandmother's family were from Rezayeh and they spoke both Azeri and Armenian, as well as Farsi.

I wonder if you could help me track down something? A couple of years ago I read about a Turkish professor( I believe) who was calling on his government to acknowledge the truth of the holocaust. What was his name? I read it in an Armenian Magazine in English that is printed either here or in Canada. I really think that the best way to Get Turkey to acknowledge their crimes is through their own people, many of whom are decent people who would be outraged if they knew the truth. I really think there is hope yet, look at how the Greeks and Turks have made steps toward peace. Also Cyprus has come together to help a little boy with Leukemia. I was so proud when Armenia also sent aid to Turkey during the earthquake, even though some Turks wanted to refuse it. That's the way to get them, show them who is more noble! Maybe generations from now people will look back at the hostility as a memory, much as the British look back at amazement that the ancestors of Swedes(Vikings) used to commit barbaric atrocities when they would invade England.

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Posted 10 May 2000 - 09:07 PM

I'm sorry Steve but I don't remember that professor's name. I've read about him in Armenian for a while ago. Maybe I'll be able to find more info about him if I search the internet. I'll do that next week probably.

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Posted 11 May 2000 - 07:08 AM

It is amazing how people conceive truth looking at it from different angles. Armenians of Iran, Russian empire and those living in Constantinopolis never actually felt the “yatagan” ( turkish sword ) on their neck , nor were they expelled from their homeland (at least not in 1915-18 ) . I’ve heard from an Armenian of Constantinopole that the massacres were the result of the actions of some naughty Armenians of the Anatolia. Doesn’t this make your body shiever?
I remember my grandfather describing the burning of an Armenian church in Cilicia , outside Zeitun , which was full of women and children who had taken refuge there. He used to cry when remembering his mother and sisters who died of hunger in the Syrian deserts.
Can I forget? Should I forget and let it go? Should I forgive?
I believe it is harder to hate than love. It keeps harming your inner world and makes you feel sick.
Most of the Armenians today live outside their ancestral homeland, and unless they dissolve in their local communities they will always be considered as ‘foreigners’. Should we go back to Armenia? Could we put our families go through this hardship now that Armenia is struggling and needs our help? Who is to be blamed for this? You tell me.
Lately as a token of their European new look and mentality the government of Turkey inaugurated a monument commemorating the massacres of the turkish people from the Armenians during the 1st world war. Is this the way to put the past behind us and construct a better future for our children?
I want to stop hating , I don’t want to complain any more about the world’s indifference towards my country and my people. I need my pride back . But let me know HOW?

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Posted 11 May 2000 - 09:45 AM

I want to stop hating , I don’t want to complain any more about the world’s indifference towards my country and my people.
I do Have my pride .
Bolor Iys Hartseri lutsum@ Djvar e linelu Sakayn Huys mi drel yev voch meki vra Batsy Mezanits.
Mez voch Russn e Ognelu Voch USA voch el IRAN kam Chinastan . miyayn menk karor enk Anel sa .
yes vorpes Skizb Kareli e Sksel Hye Azgi Miyasnutyamb .
Verj Tal iys yerkparaktich yev Azgakortsan aprelakerpin. Chmoranank te ov enk menak, um Zavakner@ yev um JArrangner.
Yete menak mer Arjek@ chimanank chem kartsum iys Ashxarhum klini mi Azg vor k@gnahaty mez yev Satar k@kangni mez Hayeris .

Knerek vor Hayern em grum , Sa im srty xoskn e . Movses

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Posted 12 May 2000 - 10:31 AM

Jan Fedayi, kou khosskert shad shad gishd en! Because of the genocide and for other reasons the Armenian people has known some changes of culture and of genetics (I'm talking about mixed marriages). Today we are in a fragile state and it is time to accept our changes and live again, NOREN ABRINK! Because we are finishing off ourselves the work which the Turks started in 1915; we are killing ourselves! Let's start over again, let's do it all ourselves. Once we have proven ourselves to the world... MNATSADZ@ MINAK@ GOU KA. Let's all have the courage our forfathers had... LIVE for Armenia, DIE for Armenia!

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Posted 14 May 2000 - 06:49 AM

Dear Garo

First of all answering your question "Do I know any famous Azerbaijanis?" No I don't but then I don't know any famous Aleuts, Bangladeshis or Mongolians, but does that make them less of a nation because of it(Well Aleuts are not a legal nation but a tribal nation). I am sure there are Azerbaijanis who are scientists, artists etc. The fact that they use a slavic alphabet means nothing. The Iranians use the Arabic alphabet, but please don't tell me they aren't a nation. It is statements like that made by Armenians that make us look like extremist fanatics. The Azerbaijanis are a separate nation, different from the Turks, though they are related of course. Much like the Spaniards and Portuguese.

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Posted 26 May 2000 - 10:32 AM

Originally posted by farsisteve@aol.com:
It seems from my research and reading that Armenians are a very unique people. Unlike Italians who are closely related to Spaniards, Portuguese and Romanians, Armenians seem to be a unique branch of people only distantly related to other Indo-Europeans.

I have read that they may be related to Albanians at least by language, but I have not seen any similarity. Also I have heard theories that they are closely related to the Romani peoples(Gypsies). Does anyone have any more information?

Hi everybody,
I have some information to share.
The word Urartu and all other words, names connected with the history of Urartian kingdom were decripted by one single scientist. His name is Piotrovski. He was an arceologist married to an Armenian and had great interest in Urartian history. But his research of the Urartian inscriptions in Erebuny, Rusakhinili and other Urartian sites was concluded under the control of Communist Party Central Committee of Moscow(Armenia was Armenian SSR at that time). During his research he factually decripted only the consonants of Urartian language. So the word "urartu" was initially decripted as "r-r-t", the word "erebuny" as "r-b-n" and so on. If we put the right sonants (in opinion of many present day Armenian scientists) we'll have "a-r-a-r-a-t" instead of "r-r-t" and "e-r-e-b-a-n" instead of "r-b-n". This system applies to a big number of Urartian words decripted by Piotrovski. And there was a reason to wrongly decript those words. Because in case he had done it in the right way, one tiny part of the USSR would become some 600-700 years older and the single successor of a rich culture. The result was that in the section of Urartu in the "History of the USSR" textbook ended with this phrase-"The Georgian, Azerbajani and Armenian fraternal peoples descended from Urartians". Georgian language belongs to the Caucasian family and has some relation to Svanetian, Lezgin languages but no relation to Armenian. Azeri or actually karakoyunlu existence happened to the region only in 13-th century in as a result of migration. The fall of Urartian kingdom dates 590 BC. The "Anabasis" of Ksenophon (Greek historian) gives a detailed describtion of the Yervandouny Armenian kingdom in 401 BC. And the most important, he writes that the people of that kingdom were speaking one language and had the same traditions of agriculture, music etc. If Urartians and Armenians were not the very same people, Yervandouny kingdom could not develop to an integrated state like that.

Sorry, I replied wrong message but anyway it's just information.

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