100 replies to this topic

[MosJan]

I was told

I'm saying nothing

[Sasun]

Okay, not God, take some other object that is invisible to me but is visible to all these folks.  Will they all be able to identify this thing?

Yes, but not completely. They can write volumes about the invisible worlds and the laws under which they operate, all kinds of descriptions, what exists there, who existst there, why, how. They can also tell you how they see it, and how you can develop such vision. They can also explain to you in what ways is ones spiritual vision developed, they can help you develop your vision. But the only thing they won't do it is to make you see it, with some exceptions. You will have to practice and gradually develop your own vision. That's not because they are not generous, but because you are not ready. Your psychic state and mental state are not strong enough, you may incur very serious health problems if someone "forcefully" opens your spiritual eye (it is possible to open in such a way too).

[Nané]

Sasun, I'm impressed with your train of thought. I'm with you so far

[Nané]

No one has any evidence on what this soul is, where this soul may come from and where it may go ... therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that whatever it is, assuming even such a thing exists, is it starts, develops, and ends with every individual life.

The soul does not develop, nor does it end ... it just exists.

[Sasun]

Sasun, I'm impressed with your train of thought.  I'm with you so far 

I am glad to know that Sulamita

[Azat]

Yes, but not completely. They can write volumes about the invisible worlds and the laws under which they operate, all kinds of descriptions, what exists there, who existst there, why, how. They can also tell you how they see it, and how you can develop such vision. They can also explain to you in what ways is ones spiritual vision developed, they can help you develop your vision. But the only thing they won't do it is to make you see it, with some exceptions. You will have to practice and gradually develop your own vision. That's not because they are not generous, but because you are not ready. Your psychic state and mental state are not strong enough, you may incur very serious health problems if someone "forcefully" opens your spiritual eye (it is possible to open in such a way too).

I dont want to or feel the need to see these "things". But is there one item you can identify that 10 other will see as well?

BTW, you mentioned that one a few can see God, so are you saying that majority of religious people are liars when they say that they see visions of God and they talk to God?

[Azat]

I ask because I want to go and ask 10 religious friend to draw or id that same item and see how close they are to each other. Because if these "things" are different for each that alone is proof that it is all in their heads and not real.

[Sasun]

I dont want to or feel the need to see these "things".  But is there one item you can identify that 10 other will see as well?

Well, one thing could be that in higher astral worlds (invisible to human eye, not the starry night) people have bodies that are composed of light-like matter but it is not matter, though it looks like matter. There a primary way of enjoyment is fantastic visual effects. All senses can be concentrated through light. I doubt you will easily find 10 people who have seen and can verify (I haven't) but if you read some books you will be surprised to find that independent sources are telling pretty much the same thing in different words.

BTW, you mentioned that one a few can see God, so are you saying that majority of religious people are liars when they say that they see visions of God and they talk to God?

Talking to, seeing God once in a lifetime or a few times is different from talking and seeing all the time whenever you wish. Only a few can do the latter but more people have small experiences of divine communion. Can a religious person lie? Yes. Do they all lie? I don't think so. Again if you spend some time on this subject and read some accounts of God realized masters then you will see they are saying pretty much the same thing, while many religious people will claim who knows what. It is often easy to tell who lies and who doesn't, even by the way they behave.

[Sip]

... but if you read some books you will be surprised to find that independent sources are telling pretty much the same thing in different words.

That is the main problem here. Just because it is written, and just because independent authors have arrived at similar conclusions, doesn't make it real. Many cultures for example arrived at "theistic" models to explain things around them independently. That doesn't make their views valid because humans can use the same type of baseless and faulty logic to arrive at similar conclusions.

There must be a real way to validate any claim. And by simply requiring one to build a special vision and special understanding in order to understand this special thing tells me that the special thing is more a figment of our "specially created and tuned visions" than any reality.

[Sip]

The soul does not develop, nor does it end ... it just exists.

That is where we disagree. I just can't see any evidence of that. Where is a child's soul before it is born? Why isn't it as aware of its "self" as when it is older? Where does the soul go after death? What medium transfers it in space?

If it is beyond our regular time and space, what evidence is there to support this? Why am I supposed to believe this other than simply because someone says so?

[Sasun]

That is the main problem here. Just because it is written, and just because independent authors have arrived at similar conclusions, doesn't make it real.  Many cultures for example arrived at "theistic" models to explain things around them independently. That doesn't make their views valid because humans can use the same type of baseless and faulty logic to arrive at similar conclusions.

There must be a real way to validate any claim. And by simply requiring one to build a special vision and special understanding in order to understand this special thing tells me that the special thing is more a figment of our "specially created and tuned visions" than any reality.

By suggesting to read books I was only trying to answer that though you can't easily find 10 people to question you can read books by different people who give such accounts.

But once again, the real way to validate is to see it yourself. What better validation ther can be?

[Siamanto]

Then why don't we want to? Especially when we constantly search for excitement and adventure, why don't we want to get deeper into that invisible world?

Because we have lost our faith, "sinned," thrown out of "Paradise" and reduced to our earthly condition!

Fortunately, as we speak, our engineers and scientists are busy designing and testing new miracle procedures, techniques and substances that will SOON revolutionize our lives and allow us to recover the lost Eden!
The financing is available, the marketing team in place and the demand is REAL; we just need to find the formula!
Thank you for your visit. Please check us again! Thank you!
Your Happiness is important to us!

[Siamanto]

I don't believe in things that a person cannot show me.

Do you believe in the logical nature and/or consistency of Mathematics?

If you do, please keep in mind that it can't be shown. (Godel)

[Siamanto]

Because we have lost our faith, "sinned," thrown out of "Paradise" and reduced to our earthly condition!

Fortunately, as we speak, our engineers and scientists are busy designing and testing new miracle procedures, techniques and substances that will SOON revolutionize our lives and allow us to recover the lost Eden!
The financing is available, the marketing team in place and the demand is REAL; we just need to find the formula!
Thank you for your visit. Please check us again! Thank you!
Your Happiness is important to us!

In other words: we don't because we still don't know how to and still looking for an ersatz of our faith: it's just a matter of time!

[Nané]

That is where we disagree. I just can't see any evidence of that. Where is a child's soul before it is born? Why isn't it as aware of its "self" as when it is older? Where does the soul go after death? What medium transfers it in space?

If it is beyond our regular time and space, what evidence is there to support this? Why am I supposed to believe this other than simply because someone says so?

Unfortunately there is no concrete evidence.

The soul comes from God and returns to God after death.

What do you mean by self? If you mean soul, I would say it's more aware of it when just born.

You don't HAVE to believe anything Sip jan. I'm just stating what I believe.

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Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts postulated the soul was material and therefore had mass, ergo a measurable drop in the weight of the deceased would be noted at the moment this essence parted ways with the physical remains. He conducted an experiment (which has not been given much credit due to valid reasons) and concluded that the soul weighs 21 grams. I don't take this figure too seriously but it is an interesting idea.

[Siamanto]

[/quote]

Sasun would 100 people who have these "eyes" with which they can see this God be able to identify the exact same person as God.

No problem! I can recognize God with my eyes closed! But, when I open them, he/she is already gone!

What I mean is that we all can identify an apple or Movses(if we all have met him few times) or a car or any object that exists.  Will these 100 people be able the same God.(since there is one right?)

I have a feeling that if there was a study the one God that these people identify will be vastly different from one another because to me it is a figure in their imagination and it has evolved in their head over time

I'm not religious and the existence - or non-existence -of God is a matter of definition i.e. depends on the definition of God. I have the impression that you are a bit caricaturizing the concept of God!
Not everything that matters to us HUMANS needs to be verifiable,
Not everything that matters to us HUMANS needs to be consistent in space-time,
Not everything that matters to us HUMANS needs to exists outside of us, HUMANS!
etc. etc.
We are HUMANS!

Edited by Siamanto, 11 January 2005 - 11:33 PM.

[Siamanto]

  yes ban chem asum 

Vorovhedev, iraganoutian metch, @selik pan tchi ga!
Payts, mart araradz@ anasun tche: g@ sire khosil!

[Sasun]

Siamanto, I like your free thinking attitude You don't exhibit atheistic dogmas.

[Sasun]

Oh Sip, speaking of predictions. You would be surprised to learn that ancient Hindu scriptures exist giving some spectacular scientific discoveries about the physical world done thousands of years ago. Among them knowledge about atomic structure, electricity, planetary system, and things of that nature. Those discoveries were done without use of any instruments, merely by spritiual practice and concentration, in other words only mind was used.
But IMO the most fundamental finding of Yogis is the understanding of the world. So according to this theory,
1) matter is not matter per se but instead very tiny vibrations of energy that appear to us as matter,
2) energy is not energy per se but instead vibrations of thoughts/ consciousness,
3) all consciousness/thoughts originate from one Absolute being. In other words, all creation is God's thoughts and imagination taking shape as cosmos and all things that exist. It is the same to say that the objects that we think are objects are in fact God's mind stuff.

Now I will not try to convince you about the whole theory, but I would like to point your attention to point number 1. This is the key component of the modern string theory in physics that came only a few decades ago, but it was known since times immemorial to Yogis (aka practitioners of Spiritual Science).

[Anoushik]

Very interesting discussion.

Anoushik, ask yourself - why don't you want to? Are you busy? Is it something unimportant? Uninterersting, boring, difficult, scary, etc...?

Sasun, I don't think it's scary; I think it's fascinating. But how many countless number of people throughout the centuries have really wondered and wanted to have some kind of contact with the invisible world, even just for the sake to understand more about our own existance? How many philosophers and theologians have ponded about the question of God and the angels? And not to mention that every single person who is born in this world constantly questions about the meaning of life, wonders what's out there, and yearns to have some kind of a sign that we are not really alone? ...Yet nothing happens.