600 replies to this topic

[SAS]

Կա մի ընդհանուր օրինաչափություն, որ կախված չէ ո՛չ ազգությունից, ո՛չ դավանանքից: Բոլոր նորադարձ ֆանատիկոսները ... շատախոս են:

Սասնա Դավիթը Իսմիլ խաթունի կաթը կերավ, բայց իսմայելցի չդարձավ: Սասունը հայ մոր ծիծ է ծծել ու կամավոր իսմայելցի դարձել:

Էս ի՜նչ քաֆուր դարի հասանաք...

[Sassun]

[size=3]Կա մի ընդհանուր օրինաչափություն, որ կախված չէ ո՛չ ազգությունից, ո՛չ դավանանքից: Բոլոր նորադարձ ֆանատիկոսները ... շատախոս են:

Ես շատախո՞ս եմ : Ընդհակարակը ես ընդհանրապէս լուռ ու մունչ կը նստիմ եւ շատ քիչ ատեն է որ բերանս կը բանամ նիւթի մը շուրջ եւ այդ ալ բաւական մտածելէ ետք: Բայց թերեւս ֆորիւմին վրայ հակարակը կը թուի:

[vahan79]

Marriage is a contract. It is not written in the books of Heaven. No one said that the act of marriage is a Heavenly act. However, extramarital sex is forbidden and a sin and the solution to this is temporary marriage.

Well, then, Islam has to be wrong. Also, what you are saying doesn't follow logically. If marriage is a contract and not a heavenly act, why would God* require it in order for couples to engage in sexual intercourse? You must see the flaw here. God doesn't require marriage just for the sake of marriage. If marriage is reduced to a mere human contract and has nothing to do with God, then why would God require it? Islam is treating marriage as if it were just an obstacle to having sex and it thinks it found a nice way around it. But, it clearly mocks God. It treats marriage as though it is a meaningless task, as if God could have said eating three apples is required every time you have sex, so let's just eat the three apples.

My point is that God must have a reason for requiring marriage. He is not whimsical in His rules that govern us. Moreover, Christians view marriage not only as a contract between the husband and wife, but as a contract between the couple and God. Otherwise, marriage is meaningless.

Also, you reduce God's purpose in having marriage as only for sex. God doesn't require marriage in order for couples to have sex because marriage is about sex. Indeed, it's because relationships are NOT about sex that God has this rule. God wants us to show our commitment to another person before we get lost in the lust of the body. By your description, this lust has seemingly overtaken Islam.

* I don't say "Allah" because I think it is kinda foolish when people translate Allah, which simply means God in Arabic. It's like saying "Adzvats" when talking about the Armenian Apostolic religion. Also, it creates further devisiveness and makes it seem like there are multiple "Gods", which none of the Abrahamic religions believes.

[Sassun]

Marriage is a requirement because Islam is "din wa dunya."
Moreover, you are trying to take my words out of context. When I talk about marriage as a contract , I intend to say that just like any contract entered into by two adults by mutual agreement, it can be cut off (divorce). I am not talking about God's stipulations and expectations from marriage. Yes, of course there are reasons why God stipulates marriage. Marriage brings about a healthy society, in terms of organizing healthy relations between men & women, raising children in a caring household, etc. All these are very important in the general welfare of society. Temporary marriage covers the other aspect , the issue of premarital sex, among other things.

If you read Arabic i would be able to send you some stuff on Islam's take on marriage... Anyway the bottom line is, just because marriage is required for sexual intercourse does not mean marriage IS ABOUT sexual intercourse only (or even primarily ) .

Islam recognizes human sexual desires as natural , and while it must abide by the rules set forth (like forbidding premarital sex, etc. ) , it does not mean that people must abstain from sex unless they get into permanent marriage. And note that by permanent marriage I do not mean that it is to last till the couple dies (divorce is permissible ) , I only use the term to distinguish it from temporary marriage.

This discussion is becoming pointless since you are using the Christian argument to apply on Islam . If I judge Christian rules and practices based on an Islamic viewpoint , and say that this is illogical or stupid , then what would be left to discuss ? Please review your mode of argumentation .

And I do not care if you say Allah / God / Asdvadz / etc. , I use all those terms interchangeably myself.

[SAS]

Սասուն,

քանի՞ կին ես առնելու, թե՞ մեկով ես բավարարվելու: Հետո էլ ասում ես, թե շատախոս չես: Քո ամեն մի պատասխանը առնվազն կես էջ է զբաղեցնում:

Edited by SAS, 05 June 2007 - 10:41 AM.

[Sassun]

Սասուն,

քանի՞ կին ես առնելու, թե՞ մեկով ես բավարարվելու: Հետո էլ ասում ես, թե շատախոս չեմ: Քո ամեն մի պատասխանը առնվազն կես էջ է զբաղեցնում:

Ինչու մէկ կին գտա՞յ մը որ աւելիին մասին պիտի մտածեմ:

(լա՞ւ է հիմա: Կարճ կտրուկ պատասխան մը տուի քեզի: )

Edited by Sassun, 05 June 2007 - 10:46 AM.

[vahan79]

Marriage is a requirement because Islam is "din wa dunya."
Moreover, you are trying to take my words out of context. When I talk about marriage as a contract , I intend to say that just like any contract entered into by two adults by mutual agreement, it can be cut off (divorce). I am not talking about God's stipulations and expectations from marriage. Yes, of course there are reasons why God stipulates marriage. Marriage brings about a healthy society, in terms of organizing healthy relations between men & women, raising children in a caring household, etc. All these are very important in the general welfare of society. Temporary marriage covers the other aspect , the issue of premarital sex, among other things.

If you read Arabic i would be able to send you some stuff on Islam's take on marriage... Anyway the bottom line is, just because marriage is required for sexual intercourse does not mean marriage IS ABOUT sexual intercourse only (or even primarily ) .

Islam recognizes human sexual desires as natural , and while it must abide by the rules set forth (like forbidding premarital sex, etc. ) , it does not mean that people must abstain from sex unless they get into permanent marriage. And note that by permanent marriage I do not mean that it is to last till the couple dies (divorce is permissible ) , I only use the term to distinguish it from temporary marriage.

This discussion is becoming pointless since you are using the Christian argument to apply on Islam . If I judge Christian rules and practices based on an Islamic viewpoint , and say that this is illogical or stupid , then what would be left to discuss ? Please review your mode of argumentation .

And I do not care if you say Allah / God / Asdvadz / etc. , I use all those terms interchangeably myself.

I wrote a response but it was lost in cyberspace.

Anyway, I see your point about my argumentation. I guess there was two parts and I didn't make this clear: (1) Islam's position (as you have defined it) is logically unsound; and (2) even if it were sound, it is wrong from a Christian perspective and as a Christian, I therefore think it is wrong. Since you won't see the latter (and shouldn't, I guess!), I'll stick to the purely logical argument.

Okay, so God has a requirement that people enter into marital contract before they engage in intercourse (i.e., premarital sex is haram). Now, God must have a reason for this, right? Is it marriage for marriage's sake? Or is there some deeper, more logical reason. If it's just for the piece of paper, then sure, these temp. marriages should be okay. But, this makes God's requirement of marriage seem highly whimsical. (Indeed, entering in and out of marriages just for the sake of having sex undermines the requirement altogether; the exception swallows the rule). I can have sex with as many people as I want as long as I am married to them, where marriage to them means nothing to me but sex. (You try to argue that marriage is more than just sex, but you know that temp. marriage ISN'T more than just sex. So, you define marriage very differently depending on what you are trying to argue. You need to have one unified definition or else the word is meaningless.) Temp. marriage makes a mockery of God's requirement.

You can't bifurcate marriage. You say "Yes, of course there are reasons why God stipulates marriage. Marriage brings about a healthy society, in terms of organizing healthy relations between men & women, raising children in a caring household, etc. All these are very important in the general welfare of society" But temp marriage doesn't bring this about, right? So by definition (your own!) it is not genuine marriage! Simply put, since temp. marriage doesn't advance these goals, it does not fulfill the basic reason why (based on what you said!) God stipulates marriage. Thus, it is a sham unto God.

Also, re: Hadiths. I know what they are, but as you know, they have been oftentimes disproven as not true statements of Mohammad. Also, there is no uniformity within Islam as to which are real and which are not, so this makes it very very hard to rely on them.

Lastly, Al-Anisa doesn't say very much about this at all. I think it is a stretched reading of the text to infer the correctness of temp. marriages from this particular text.

[Sassun]

Hi Vahan,

Okay, so God has a requirement that people enter into marital contract before they engage in intercourse (i.e., premarital sex is haram). Now, God must have a reason for this, right? Is it marriage for marriage's sake? Or is there some deeper, more logical reason. If it's just for the piece of paper, then sure, these temp. marriages should be okay. But, this makes God's requirement of marriage seem highly whimsical. (Indeed, entering in and out of marriages just for the sake of having sex undermines the requirement altogether; the exception swallows the rule). I can have sex with as many people as I want as long as I am married to them, where marriage to them means nothing to me but sex. (You try to argue that marriage is more than just sex, but you know that temp. marriage ISN'T more than just sex. So, you define marriage very differently depending on what you are trying to argue. You need to have one unified definition or else the word is meaningless.) Temp. marriage makes a mockery of God's requirement.

Islam views marriage both from a spiritual as well as physical/natural perspective! That is what is so beautiful about it. Marriage is about spiritual unity between husband & wife , but at the same time Islam's take on marriage stipulates a realistic view , where both the spiritual and physical aspects are put into their normal & natural context and functionality , and one aspect does not override the other or ignore others . And sexual relationship is one of those things that are of primary importance , and it also functions as a means to bring the husband & wife closer together spiritually . And also Islam does not seek to restrain human desires and aspirations and people are supposed to be people and not angels or saints !!!

**

I am not defining marriage differently according to what I am arguing. There are two types of marriage, which differ in their methods btw (thus, in temporary marriage there is no such thing as "divorce", and when the time frame for which the contract was made expires, the couple are no longer married ), and I clearly referred to them distinctly , as opposed to using the same term for both of them. One is temporary marriage, while the other is permanent marriage. Marriage as a word , is understood to be a contract of union (it could be spiritual + sexual union, or it could be just sexual in nature .... )

Temporary marriage does not make a mockery of God's requirement, because God Himself approved of it, as can be seen in the Qur'an. Btw, no, there is no disagreement as to what is meant by Verse 24 , Sura Al-Nisa'a in the Qur'an. (btw I noticed you seem to know Arabic, which is good, as you can understand some of the terminology I am using which is difficult to translate accurately into English ! ) . Some Sunni clerics have attempted to invoke the "naskh"/mansookh argument, but this argument has failed miserably , as Shiite clerics have shown/proven!!! Yeah, some people have attempted to forge Hadiths , and these have been done away with . However , the Hadiths that are accepted unanimously , including the ones that Sunnis rely on , like Bukhari , etc., all admit to the legitimacy of the marriage of pleasure . In addition, Allama Tabatabai in the Tafsir al Mizan shows beyond the shadow of a doubt that the zawaj mutaa was prevalent and is legitimate.

Besides, there is absolutely no proof that Prophet Muhammad prohibited such a thing , and so what we are left with is the very logical argument that Omar bin al Khattab is the one who came up with the idea of rejecting what Prophet Muhammad Himself had accepted !!! Which says a lot about Sunni distortions of Islam and of Prophet Muhammad's words!!!

Edited by Sassun, 06 June 2007 - 11:40 AM.

[Sip]

Oh I see so Shiite Islam Good, Sunni Islam Bad. Well, that's good to know

[Sassun]

Oh I see so Shiite Islam Good, Sunni Islam Bad. Well, that's good to know

Not really... Distortions are bad. Mass murder based on these distortions are even worse.
Besides, there is no such thing as Sunni Islam or Shiite Islam , there is Islam , then there are Shiites and Sunnis , which is a difference not on the core of Islam (except some issues which Sunnis have distorted ) but on the succession.

Anyway , back to Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women...

Today I met this Armenian girl while sitting with one of my (Arab) friends , and my friend asked her what her name was. She said "Davigh". So my friend told her , what kind of name is that ? She said Armenian. My friend told her I was Armenian and asked me what Davigh meant. LOL!!! I did not know what it meant. So she said : You don't know what Davigh means ?????? (was I supposed to know?? I've never heard of that word before ) ... i told her no , and asked her what it meant. She said "harp".

OK, what does this have to do with Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women ? hmm, never mind.

[vahan79]

Not really... Distortions are bad. Mass murder based on these distortions are even worse.
Besides, there is no such thing as Sunni Islam or Shiite Islam , there is Islam , then there are Shiites and Sunnis , which is a difference not on the core of Islam (except some issues which Sunnis have distorted ) but on the succession.

Anyway , back to Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women...

Today I met this Armenian girl while sitting with one of my (Arab) friends , and my friend asked her what her name was. She said "Davigh". So my friend told her , what kind of name is that ? She said Armenian. My friend told her I was Armenian and asked me what Davigh meant. LOL!!! I did not know what it meant. So she said : You don't know what Davigh means ?????? (was I supposed to know?? I've never heard of that word before ) ... i told her no , and asked her what it meant. She said "harp".

OK, what does this have to do with Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women ? hmm, never mind.

Davigh does mean harp! I always use this as an example to show that the Armenian language is gendered because the word for "harpist" is "davghaharuhi" which implies that only women can play the harp! What about harpo marx or whatever his name is/was?!

So, was she attracted to your Muslim-ness? (to keep it relevant) Are there many Armenian-Muslims in Lebanon? Have you always lived there?


oh, and ana baaref SHWEYET 'arabi.

[Sassun]

Davigh does mean harp! I always use this as an example to show that the Armenian language is gendered because the word for "harpist" is "davghaharuhi" which implies that only women can play the harp! What about harpo marx or whatever his name is/was?!

So, was she attracted to your Muslim-ness? (to keep it relevant) Are there many Armenian-Muslims in Lebanon? Have you always lived there?
oh, and ana baaref SHWEYET 'arabi.

Can't it be davghahar also ? Is there a rule that stipulates that it always be "davghaharuhi" ???

Eywaa!! Ta'ref to'ra Arabi kamen , walla bas btehki ? Min 'allamak ? Enta mn Lbnen shi ?

There aren't many Muslim Armenians in Lebanon.
Yeah I have always lived here. Born here / raised here / live here .

I did not tell her I am Muslim , so I wouldn't know. heh..

[Anonymouse]

Is this Sassun guy an Armenian musulman? Is this a bad joke or nightmare I haven't waken up from?

[vahan79]

Can't it be davghahar also ? Is there a rule that stipulates that it always be "davghaharuhi" ???

Eywaa!! Ta'ref to'ra Arabi kamen , walla bas btehki ? Min 'allamak ? Enta mn Lbnen shi ?

There aren't many Muslim Armenians in Lebanon.
Yeah I have always lived here. Born here / raised here / live here .

I did not tell her I am Muslim , so I wouldn't know. heh..

Yeah, I thought about that. It can be, but if you look it up in the dictionary, that is what it will say.

I had lots of Lebanese and Syrian friends (Muslim and Christian) growing up in Greece. In Greece, Armenians and Arabs often cling together (at least in my area). But, I have lived in California for 15 years now.

Your English is very good! How is that?

[vahan79]

Is this Sassun guy an Armenian musulman? Is this a bad joke or nightmare I haven't waken up from?

Yes, so what? What bothers me most about people posting on here who are anti-Armenian-Muslim is that I doubt (HIGHLY doubt) that most of them are even church-goers. Effectively, I am sure they are atheists anyway (even if they SAY they are Armenian Apostolic). At least Sassun is devoted to God!

I have been to churches all over LA and you NEVER see young people there (15-35). You see children and տատիկներ . The only time young people show up is when their friends are getting married (or they are)

Ամոթ ձեզ !!!

[Anonymouse]

Yes, so what? What bothers me most about people posting on here who are anti-Armenian-Muslim is that I doubt (HIGHLY doubt) that most of them are even church-goers. Effectively, I am sure they are atheists anyway (even if they SAY they are Armenian Apostolic). At least Sassun is devoted to God!

I have been to churches all over LA and you NEVER see young people there (15-35). You see children and տատիկներ . The only time young people show up is when their friends are getting married (or they are)

Ամոթ ձեզ !!!

Um, you must be inverted.

If he is an Armenian musulman, then oxymoron just got a whole new meaning.

And you know what? I am not a church goer and never claimed to be. My stance on religions are kind of like buffets, take what you want from them but otherwise don't committ yourself to them. However, with Christianity, I do proclaim myself as a Christian because it has been woven into the Armenian cultural fabric and it is more of a cultural marker for me than anything else. And therein it receives its prime importance.

The problem with Islam are many (and no this does not say that there are no problems with Christianity particularly with the Armenian brand). Moreover, on a cultural and racial plane, an Armenian musulman in my eyes has regressed instead of progressed.

My two cents.

[Sassun]

Yeah, I thought about that. It can be, but if you look it up in the dictionary, that is what it will say.

I had lots of Lebanese and Syrian friends (Muslim and Christian) growing up in Greece. In Greece, Armenians and Arabs often cling together (at least in my area). But, I have lived in California for 15 years now.

Your English is very good! How is that?

LOL I do not have Armenian dictionary. But I think I need to get one , in case I meet another Armenian girl with a weird name I have never heard of .

Ah ok , Leb. & Syrian friends - that explains it .

My English is good thanks to the internet !! believe it or not. and also the fact that all the subjects we have studied in school were in English (although English was technically 3rd language !!) When I finished Armenian school , I knew how to speak English better than Arabic. LOL ... Armenian schools are really weak in Arabic which is a shame cos many parents are now sending their kids to Arabic schools for that reason , and as a result the kids end up not knowing Armenian (unless they get those Armenian tutors , which still will not have the same impact as going to Armenian school and being in Armenian society and learning Armenian history etc ) , so when I got into the army , I could barely make people understand me when I spoke in Arabic. although the written and reading skills were better than even those of Arabs. but now i speak Arabic better than Armenian....

Edited by Sassun, 08 June 2007 - 01:18 AM.

[Anoushik]

Yes, so what? What bothers me most about people posting on here who are anti-Armenian-Muslim is that I doubt (HIGHLY doubt) that most of them are even church-goers. Effectively, I am sure they are atheists anyway (even if they SAY they are Armenian Apostolic). At least Sassun is devoted to God!

I have been to churches all over LA and you NEVER see young people there (15-35). You see children and տատիկներ . The only time young people show up is when their friends are getting married (or they are)

Ամոթ ձեզ !!!

Talk about brainwashing.

Sassun, you succeeded.

[Sip]

... My stance on religions are kind of like buffets, ..

If I were a hot chick, you would be a VERY busy guy tonight.

[Anonymouse]

If I were a hot chick, you would be a VERY busy guy tonight.

Well, ain't that a tragedy!