15 replies to this topic

[SAS]

Sireli Arpa,

nerqobervats barern inch tsagum unen( turqakan, arabakan,parskakan) yev, yete hnaravor e, khndrum em tal stugabanutyun@?

1.BastURMA = bastirma/pastirma ( turq.)

2.GavURMA/KavURMA = gavirma( turq.)

3.DondURMA ( turq.)

4.ShaURMA( shavrma/shauvrma/shavurma) - araberen bar e?

5. Dolma ( turq.) = tolma( hayeren)

Arajin yereq turqeren barer@ pokharutyun en araberenic/parskerenic, te @ndhakarak@?

Kankhav shnorhakal em`

SAS

[ October 08, 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: SAS ]

[MosJan]

SAS jan axorjak es batsuum
Mi shihs el Qarahuni Orri im Kormits de vor petpesa

Arpa jan indz nuinpes hetaqrqir e patasxan@

SAS barekamnerits@s mej@ vor misht portsuma HAyeren xosel Basturmayin anvanum er Chamanov Apuxt 0 yani chaman@ HAyerena /
yete chamani Hayeren anun@ gtnenq klini X-Apuxt.

Ghavurman - Yuri mej Tapakvats yev Kave Karasi mej pahvatsn e -

[Arpa]

Ayo sireli Movses and SAS, it is a compelling and interesting subject and I may have much to say aboutit, however, this being under the subject topic of "CULTURE" I have reserved my right to not enter that site as long as it is being hijacked by writers whose messages have very little to do with culture, if at all. One hijacker who spreads his "aromatic" efluum in that topic, I am surprised that some even bother to respond, they may be newcomers and may think something of wisdom is being said. One hijacker titles his garbage as "As I See It" What is that he sees? Yeah, yeah! You see my v...k

Here is a story;

Some time ago when there were public bathouses on every block a young man whose hormones were making his head spin had found an opening in the wall of one of these bathouses and was wathing a lady in her birthday suit. It was delightful even if he had a view of the woman's behind. The young man was overwhelmed, he could contain himself anymore, he tries to get the lady's attention to let her know that she was being watched he excliams; "I see you, I see you". The bathing beauty, without even turning around to see where the voice coming from answers; "Yeah, yeah you see me, you see my A..".

[MosJan]

Sorry Arpa jan - iyt mek hartsum - vochinch chem karror anel - iysinq@n karror em sakayn - lav ban chi lini -

sorry

[ October 09, 2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[Arpa]

Voch sireli SAS, bolorn al zut Trqeren en. They are all original Turkish.

In my past response to the topic I wrote a sermonette to whom it may concern. I consider it our duty to (re)build and reclaim our heritage, not to destroy it. Heaven knows it has been destroyed enough. In Antony's words; "I come to praise (Julius) Caesar, not to bury him".
Beware! There may be another sermonette at the end of this post.

1. Basturma, Turkish to mean "pressed". We will see why and where the word and the notion comes from when we speak about "apukht/apuxt". Sometimes I wonder whether that delicacy the Jews claim to be their own is not a corrubpted form of the Turkish word as well as the delicacy itself. Does not "pastrami" sound perilously similar to "basturma"?

2. Gavurma, Turkish based on the verb "gavir/gavur" to fry. Movses is correct, it is amnother way of preserving meat and saving for the future or taking along on a journey. I wonder if the Turkish word "gavur" to fry has anything to do with "giavour". They have fried us enough times

3. Dondurma, Turkish based on "don" to freeze, i.e. frozen.

4. Shaurma, Turkish. This is very interesting, even though it is originally Turkish this form is arabicized. The native Turkish word is "chevirme", it is arabicized to shaurma because ther neither CH not V in the Arabic. Another curious thing about this is that even though this word is Turkish the Turks themselves have abandoned it and instead they use "doener kebab" instead. Doenme (unlike donma which means to freeze) means to turn.

5. Dolma, Turkish. It is from to fill, to stuff. Add to that "sarma", also Turkish to mean to roll, to wrap.

I will write about apuxt/chaman under separate cover. In the meantime here is the sermonette.
The subject of names of foods is a recurring event.
I have, on many occasions, without success challenged my correspondents to list uniquely Armenian cucinal names and or for a list of uniquely Armenian dish with an Armenian name. I don't know any except "khash"? We have a word for barbecued meat, "khorovats" which is based on the root of "khorel/kharel" to sear, to char. Almost all of our dishes have foreign names, if it is not Turkish it is Arabic, Persian or other.
It is very easy, that is if we are willing. It may be too late already. We introduced most of the Middle Eastern to Americanand the west but we taught them their Turkish names. We brought barbecued meat and we called it kebab instead of khorovats, we introduced sour milk and we taght them "yogurt". Mind you, contrary to the prevailing wisdom "yogurt" is not a Turkish word, it is Armenian based on "yogh/yegh" an IndoEuropean word that is the origin of words like "olil/olio/huile" etc., definitely not original Turkish even though they borrowed it and use it in the form of "yagh". Yogurt is Armenian, it was probably "yeghort" originally to mean the remnant the "mnatsord" after the yegh/oil/butter was extracted.
On the contrary "madsun/matsun" is a foreign word, it is from Arabig "maajun" that means "kneaded/shaghvats". we use the word in another form too "matsik" to mean paste. We brought that delicacy of rice and hamburger rolled in grape leaves and we called it "sarma", turkish, even worse, we called the meatless kind "yalanchi", also Turkish to mean "liar/fake" because it is meatless. Mind you, even though those words may be Turkish none of the dishes are original Turkish

More than a hundredd years ago Garegin abp Srvanstiants in his book "Hamov Hotov" suggested to Armenians most of these foreign food names. He suggested that dolma be renamed lits, ice cream/paghpaghak be shortened and used in more esthetically appealing "sarnoush"(based on sar/ice and [an]oush), that baklava be named "tertush" and more. He was poohpoohed and ridiculed since by then our alienation was so ingrained that the public did not even realize that what they were spesaking was not Armenian but Turkish. I have seen this in America even now, some speak Turkish thinking that it is Armenian. He may have not taken seriously for all the aforementioned but perhaps mostly because he suggested that sarma be renamed "bllor/pllor" that sounds like a childish word for a certain anatomical part.

And the beat goes on. We advertise food festival at an Armenian institution, often at that most Armenian institution, the Church and display, pilaf, shish kebab, dolma, sarma, baklava, burma, tabbouleh, lahm ou ajin, mhammara, hummus.... ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

Go ahead, pooh pooh me and dismiss me to as Garegin Srvantstyants was a century and half ago and the meantime sell food with Turkish names at the church. It was easy at one time, there were no Turks in America and we got away easy, now they are coming to the food fairs and challenging us and asserting that we claim to be Armenian dishes are all Turkish, and they are selling those same foods at their mosques and cultural centers as Turkish food, and they are right. In this department we have no leg to stand on.

[SAS]

Arpa jan,

anchap shnorhakal em, bayc...
H.A&aryan@ "matsun" hamarum e bnik hayeren bar( verjapes yes el uneca Armatakan bararan
), isk vraceren "matsoni"-n` pokharutyun e hayerenic:

========================================================

MosJan,

turq@ anitsvats e, isk &ashern` orhnvats:

[MosJan]

SAS jan klin yete chpatasxanem anitsvatsnei masin urraki sarsapeli Zayratsats em - mek el tesar mi ban asem - mer liberal Hayer@ chsiren - gorts chunem - qani berans paka tor pak el mna

Movses

[Jano1968]

[QUOTE]I wonder if the Turkish word "gavur" to fry has anything to do with "giavour..Dear Arpa.I think you are correct on all your answers,except that "gavur"comes from the arabic word "kafer",which probably you means "infidel"....

[Jano1968]

which probably you knowmeans "infidel..Sorry

[Arpa]

which probably you knowmeans "infidel..Sorry

Dear Jano,
I have been very busy, sorry for the delay.
Thank you Gamavor for reminding me.
You may not have been here when we discussed about "gavur" in length. Ali may have had relevant comments hence begging the questionif the Arabic word "kafer" is the original, as Ali points to, labeling that pagan priest as blasphemer or the Arabs learned the word from that "priest".
BTW if "gavurma", to fry has anything to do with "gavur" it eludes me. Unless it comes fro the premise when they "fried" the infidels, the gavurs and began to use the word to threaten to fry, subject to the fate of gavurs all those who did not qualify as "true beleivers".
Beleivers in what? Which myhology?
My mythology is better than yours?

Click below.

http://armenians.com...t=1554&hl=kafir

[Arpa]

which probably you knowmeans "infidel..Sorry

Dear Jano,
I have been very busy, sorry for the delay.
Thank you Gamavor for reminding me.
You may not have been here when we discussed about "gavur" in length. Ali may have had relevant comments hence begging the questionif the Arabic word "kafer" is the original, as Ali points to, labeling that pagan priest as blasphemer or the Arabs learned the word from that "priest".
BTW if "gavurma", to fry has anything to do with "gavur" it eludes me. Unless it comes fro the premise when they "fried" the infidels, the gavurs and began to use the word to threaten to fry, subject to the fate of gavurs all those who did not qualify as "true beleivers".
Beleivers in what? Which myhology?
My mythology is better than yours?

Click below.

http://armenians.com...t=1554&hl=kafir

Ooops!
Once a gain I lied.
I should have taken more time. Whe I did it daned on me that "gavur" as in "gavurma" is not the same as "gavur" as in "kafer", that the word meaning to fry is orginally written and pronounced as "khavur/ghavur" kh and gh as khaghogh. Which made me think if it had anything to with the Armenian word "kharel/khorel/khorovel/khorovats. I had alrady concludec to be so but I asked Mr. Ajarian anyway...

Surprise, surprise!!!

Khar/kharel is a native Armenian word based on the root of "qor/qer" common with other European languages as in "char/car/car-bon/charcoal". One of it ealier uses was "kharuyk/bonfire"..

And yes, dear Jano the Turks did borrow it from us, perhaps because when they first came to our lands they had no concept of cooked/preserved meat.

BTW. I think I did write about "khorovats" some time ago. It may be under the topic of "HyeKhorum"

[Caucasian]

Don't know about the others but I know that pastirma and sudjuk are Armenian food.

[Arpa]

Don't know about the others but I know that pastirma and sudjuk are Armenian food.

Dear Kovkasian,
It is funny how you have the most Armenian sounding nickname(surname). Not only its structure is very much Armenian but by definition Caucasian simply means Armenian. The story goes that this European traveler was so struck by the beauty of the caucasian woman/people) that from then on "caucasian" became synonymous with beauty and eventually to mean "white" i.e not African, not Asian etc. I'm sure you know that in the English language "caucasian" is usd to mean "white".
If your fist name is Armen then we will crown you his majesty Armen Kovkasian, King of Armenia.
Don't know about the others but I know that pastirma and sudjuk are
Armenian food
As to the above, I am sure you read all that was written about the subject. I am sure I also wrote about "bastirma"(you may find it using the key "apukht".
If what you mean is that these are Armenian delicacies you are right, not only that, you will be delighted to know that the best bastirma and sucuk are/were made by Armenians of Kesaria, they still are, even here in America.
As to them being Armenian words?
It is obvious that neither bastirma nor sudjuk are of Armenian origin. In Armenian we call them apukht/apuxt and ershik respectively.
The first one is easy. "bastirma" (in quotes to mean the word, not the delicacy) is clearly Turkish it is derived from "bas" to press/step on, it means "pressed" as the part of the process of making it is to press(in salt). (I won't go into detals, look up apukht). As to "sudjuk", I must thank you for this beacuse I learned, deducted something that I had never considered before. Sucuk is a corrupted form of "sausage", we may see it clearly when we consider this. This is the part I did not know. The Italian word for sausage is "salsiccia", this would commonly be pronounced as salsicha(many words lose the L from one language to another, like albergo becomes auberge), since in the Italiian "cci" is pronounced as ch. But look at the composition of the word. "sal" means salt, and "sicca" means dry. Put them together and you get salted-(and)-dried. Those who know what sudjuk is this will be very obvious.
As to "sudjuk" (the word) being Armenian, once again no. I said above that we call the delicacy "ershik", sorry to say that even that is not an Armenian word. The only possible source of it may be "erishgi", Turkish, the Armenians of Adana and Kesaria used the word first as "erishgig/irishgig" then just plain "ershik/yershik".
Further, another Turkish word that is common among Armenians is basmaji-(ian), as the "bas" in bastirma. I'm sure you know what that means. It describes the art of textile design by pressing.

BTW. In case you can't find "apukht", it is a word common with persian that simply means raw, uncooked, i.e the negative prefix a- and pukht(cook), therefor uncooked. It explains the fact that the meat is preserved by salting and spicing rather than cooking as opposed to "khavurma" which is taken from Armenian that means to roast, to char. Note the English word "char", see if it is not pronounced "khar" at times, like in German. In Armenian kharel means to sear sometime used in reference to branding animals. Khorel is a common variation thereof from where come khorovel, khorovats that the Turks know as kebab.

I have no reasoon to lie or bend the truth, that is an exclusively Turkish art form. We win some, we lose some , we mostly win.

[Caucasian]

Name may be Turkish but it doesn't mean it's not Armenian kind of food

[Arpa]

Name may be Turkish but it doesn't mean it's not Armenian kind of food

If you were to read my above post carefully you would have noticed that I was mainly speaking about the origin of the words. That in no way will negate your assumption that they(the delicacies themselves) are Armenian in origin.
Armenians have lost and ceded a lot of culture to their neigbors. There is a strong tendency that all those words that we dismiss as (from) Persian may have very well Armenian in the first place. There is a reason for Armenian scientists and lexicographers to be cautious as all of our native original culture has been obliterated many time, the Assyrians did it, the Persians did it, the Romans did it, the Byzantians did it, the Arabs did it, and the biggest of them all the Turks did it. Not to forget when we ourselves did it too, remember the year 301 and its destructive aftermath.
All of our libraries and depositories have been destroyed numerous times hence leaving us only records of our naighbors far and near.

As to those words being Turkish, see also where I said "We lose some, we win some"
You sound like you are from around Kesaria. Not too far from there is a mountain, about 20-30 miles south of Rize, called Kackar Dag. Do you know what that means?
See below;
http://www.armenianh...ronicle312.html

Kackar is the turkified variation of Khachkar, yes we are not Ataturkicized yet, we still have the kh (as in khiyar)sound. Open your Turkish dictionary and tell us what the word for "cross" is, among, salib (Arabic), chapraz(Persian).... hac/hach, like in the "khach" above. What is the name of that mountain that the world knows as Ararat? Of course, Turks did/do not read the Bible so they had no idea what the mountain was called, otherwise they would have named it Ereret, they had to give it a name and the first name they saw as Agori/Aghory, the Armenian town and monastery that had been there since antiquity, they named it Agri. The Turks are well known for their corruption of Armenian words, names and culture. I am surprised they did not call ir "egri", "crooked" as thew crooks they are-"stolen".
Are bastirma and sujuk Armenian creations? You bet!! Except that they must be known by their proper Armenian names... apukht and ershik.

[MosJan]

Որտեղի՞ց է գալիս մածունը, ո՞վ է առաջին անգամ այդ ուտելիքը անվանել մածուն

18.Հուլիս.2013 - 01:33

 

 

Ո՞վ չի սիրում մածուն. երևի չկա այդպիսի մեկը: Իսկ ո՞վ է առաջին անգամ մածուն մերել, և ո՞վ չի վախեցել ու այդ մերածը կերել է: Որտեղի՞ց է գալիս մածունը, ո՞վ է առաջին անգամ այդ ուտելիքը անվանել մածուն: Անշուշտ, հետաքրքիր հարցեր են. փորձենք խորանալ: Տեսնենք, թե որն է մածուն բառի արմատը, բնիկ հայերե՞ն բառ է, թե՞ ոչ:
Առաջին իսկ հայացքից երևում է, որ մածուն բառի արմատն է մած-ը: Մած «կպած, կից, իրար միացրած» արմատով բազմաթիվ բառեր կան հայերենում. մածուցիկ «կպչուն հատկություն ունեցող և թանձր», մածվել «կպչել, մակարդվել», մածուկ «բջջանյութի լուծույթ, խմորանման զանգված, թանձրուկ», մածական, մածան «կպչուն», մածիկ «ճեղքերը փակելու, արանքները լցնելու նjութ» և այլն: Այս շարքին է պատկանում նաև մածուն-ը: Մած արմատը հանդես է գալիս նաև բառավերջում. տախտակամած, այսինքն՝ «իրար կպած տախտակներ», փայտամած, թանձրամած «պինդ, անթափանց, թանձրորեն պատող», խավարամած, ծխամած և այլն:
Բնիկ հայերեն բառ է՝ ծագած հնդեվրոպական մած արմատից, որը նշանակում է «շաղախել, խմոր շինել»: Այս արմատից բազմաթիվ լեզուներում առաջացել են իմաստով իրար մոտ շատ ու շատ բառեր: Օրինակ՝ ռուսերեն мазь, мазать,мажу,масло:
Մածուն բառով ունենք մի շարք դարձվածներ ու առածներ:
Մածնի աման լպստող ենք ասում ուրիշի մնացորդներով կերակրվողին՝ նկատի ունենալով, որ կատուն է լպստում ամանները:
Փորձված թանը լավ է, քան անփորձ մածունը. այսինքն՝ իմացած, փորձով արդեն հաստատված որևէ բան ավելի նախընտրելի է, քան ավելի լավ, բայց չիմացած, չփորձած բանը:
Մածնին սև ասել. մեկի ասածը հաստատել՝ նույնիսկ բացահայտ սխալ կամ անիրավացի լինելը գիտենալով:
Մածուն բառը մեզնից փոխառել են հույները, վրացիները՝ մածոնի, թուրքերը՝ մազուն: Վերջիններս ունեն նաև յոգուրտ, որը նույնպես «մածուն» է նշանակում և այժմ լայն գործածում ունի:
«Շատ հավանական է, որ մածուն բառի հետ ուրիշ ազգերը փոխառել են նաև մածուն պատրաստելու եղանակը», – գրում է Հր. Աճառյանը: Այդ բանը տեղի է ունեցել նաև վերջերս: Ռուսները, Կովկասում ծանոթանալով մածնին, վրացիներից փոխառել են մացոնի բառը, որն, ինչպես տեսանք, վրացիները մեզանից էին վերցրել, իսկ Նոր Նախիջևանում (այժմ՝ Դոնի Ռոստով) անմիջապես հայերից փոխառել են մածուն բառը (мацун):
«Կեսարացի մի հայ բժիշկ (դ-ր Տատրյան), վերջերս մածունը փոխադրելով ԱՄՆ, պատճառ եղավ անգլերեն մազոոն (մածուն) և մազոլ (յուղով խառնված մածուն՝ թուլակազմ մարդկանց սննդի համար) բառերի փոխառության», - գրում է Հր. Աճառյանը դեռևս 1898 թվականին:
Ինչպես տեսնում ենք, մեր բառը շրջում է աշխարհով մեկ ու նոր կերպարանք առած հետ վերադառնում:

 

 

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