458 replies to this topic

[Sassun]

AK-47
You raise an interesting point re: seeing Hijab-wearing women in the first state to accept Christianity.
Are you saying that Christian identity is inseparable from Armenian identity?
I know that historically Christianity has always been a strong (if not the strongest) element in holding the nation together, but do you think it is still as valid today, after we have a very solid national identity that is not related to practicing Christianity on a daily (or even monthly) basis anymore (mostly Christian in name)? I think here the issue of lifestyle is also important, and one of the main reasons why Armenians would not accept a "Muslim Armenian". But think about it. If a Muslim Armenian (someone who has converted to Islam willingly) identifies strongly as Armenian, speaks Armenian, thinks in Armenian, and eats the best food ever-- Armenian food of course, dolma sarma manti yevaylen , do you think that this person would really not be Armenian just because he is Muslim and prays 5 times a day, observes Muslim holidays, and so on? Regardless of whether or not you might think it's stupid for someone to go after organized religion or to convert to Islam.
A devout Christian Armenian would still be considered Armenian.
Thus, religiosity is not the issue here.
The issue is about different religion and also about lifestyle.
And then again, converting to Islam does not mean one abandons one's lifestyle or culture completely. Only some aspects that might be contradictory.

[Sassun]

Այժմ տաճիկ ազգերը սկսած են ազգային (իրենց) անուններով կոչուիլ, բայց ընդհանրապէս արաբական անուններով կը կոչուին:
Եթէ շիի պիտ ըլլայ հայ մը .հասան հուսէնի եւ զայնաբի որդի իսմայէլեան
Իսկ եթէ սուննի պիտ ըլլայ .օմար ահմետի եւ այշայի որդի մոհամեդեան
Հաճելի՞ է Սասուն Տալւորիկի որդի Տուրուբերանեան:
Դուն Ալհայաթ կայանէն եգիպտացի վարդապետ Զաքարիա Պետրոսի յաղորդումերը կ'ունկնդրե՞ս:

Անունը ի՞նչ կապ ունի ասոր հետ: Ոչ մէկ կապ չունի:
Մարդիք եթէ այդպէս կը կոչեն իրենց զաւակները, այդ չի նշանակեր թէ ստիպողական է: Իրենք պարզապէս այդպէս կը փափաքին եւ ազատ են այդպէս ընել:
Ոչ, ես Ալհայաթ կայանը չեմ դիտեր: Բայց հիմա նայեցայ թէ ով է այդ մարդը եւ այնպէս կ'երեւի կոր որ Իսլամներու դէմ է:

Ես ալ քեզի հարցնեմ՝ կարդացե՞ր ես Իմամ Ալիի «Նահճ Պալաղա»ն: Անգլերէնով՝ «Nahj Balagha» (Peak of Eloquence):
Եթէ կարդաս ուղակի կը զմայլիս: Արաբերէնով է եւ կրնայ ըլլալ որ գիտես լեզուն. Այդ վարդապէտին խօսքերուն հաւատալու տէղ բորձէ կարդալ այդ գիրքը: Անգլերէնով ալ կայ կարծեմ, բայց թարգմանութիւնը չի կրնար գեղեցկութիւնը եւ ճշգրտութիւնը լիովին պահել:

Edited by Sassun, 25 May 2007 - 06:43 AM.

[Arpa]

What I don’t understand is this compulsion to have a religion, any religion, if not one, the other.
Where is it written that man should have a religion? Who wrote it?
Granted that man is a spiritual, thinking, wondering, questioning, curious animal, as opposed to other mammals. I have said this before. It seems like man does need “religion”, otherwise we wouldn’t have invented it. As the saying goes “necessity is the mother of invention”. It seem there is a need for religion , hence the invention. I said "invention" since it is a human invention.
What it is that one cannot find in one religion that they must search in others. Hocus pocus is hocus pocus no matter in what language. How is Muslim mythology any different or better than Christian mythology, except that the latter is modeled after the Greek with trinity (father mother son) etc.
To me, searching another religion is reminiscent of those who undergo sex change procedures, who claim that even if their physique is of one gender their psyche is of another. Do you think those people find eternal peace? I doubt it.
They asked the skunk why it moves to a new house so often. It says that every house it moves in smells. The house??? smells???
Someone above said that Muslims acknowledge Jesus and Moses as “prophets”. First off , what is the Arabic for “prophet”, do they really have prophets in the judeo-christian sense? Mohammed is a “rassoul” a messenger առաքեալ/apostle** letter carrier, is that their term for prophet ? And also, as Jesus and Moses, in Islam Adam Abraham and Noah are also called “prophets”. So, don’t be so fast to judge. They place Jesus in the same level as that fictitious idiot Noah. Besides, no one has yet any evidence to show the historicity of either Abraham or Moses.
Let us go back to the skunk story. How is one house/religion better that the other when it is us that smells, not the house.

WHY DOES THIS SUBJECT CROP UP PERIODICALLY?
ARE ARMENIANS CONVERTING TO ISLAM EN MASSE?
OR ARE SOME PEOPLE TESTING THE WATERS BEFORE THEY MAKE A HEADLONG DIVE?

* do the Arabs have a word for prophet? The Persians use “peghambar” which is a legacy of their pre-Islamic culture.
** Do you see the "post" in "apostle"?

Edited by Arpa, 25 May 2007 - 07:51 AM.

[Arpa]

What I don’t understand is this compulsion to have
** Do you see the "post" in "apostle"?

Please “pardon my slip”.
I may have taken too many silly pills this morning..
If apostle means messenger, letter carrier then should we call our letter carriers առաքեալ, shall we rename our post offices առաքելատուն, առաքելարան, and similarly, call our mother church a mailroom, post office?
Once again. Please forgive my silliness, but then again how much sillier am I than that concept of religion?

[Johannes]

Անուանափոխութեան վերաբերեալ պատասխանէդ հասկցայ որ դուն աշխարհէն «բեխաբար» ես Սասունիկ:
Չըլլայ թէ՝ Սինիորայի դէմ նստացոյցերու ընթացքին Հըզբոլլայական սիրուն աղջիկ մը նուիրեց քեզ այդ նահջ բալաղան:
Կը խրատեմ քեզ՝ քիչ մը հայոց պատմութիւն կարդալ, «նահջ ըլ բակաղայ»ի առընթեր:
Յետ գրութիւն.
-գրուածներուն շատ մի հաւատար, մանաւանդ իմ գրածներուս:
-«Պեշկիր» թերեւս պարկերէն է, պարսկաստանի հոգեկից հարաւցիները թերեւս, այդ պատճաով այդ բառը կը գործ ածեն:

[Sassun]

Անուանափոխութեան վերաբերեալ պատասխանէդ հասկցայ որ դուն աշխարհէն «բեխաբար» ես Սասունիկ:
Չըլլայ թէ՝ Սինիորայի դէմ նստացոյցերու ընթացքին Հըզբոլլայական սիրուն աղջիկ մը նուիրեց քեզ այդ նահջ բալաղան:
Կը խրատեմ քեզ՝ քիչ մը հայոց պատմութիւն կարդալ, «նահջ ըլ բակաղայ»ի առընթեր:
Յետ գրութիւն.
-գրուածներուն շատ մի հաւատար, մանաւանդ իմ գրածներուս:
-«Պեշկիր» թերեւս պարկերէն է, պարսկաստանի հոգեկից հարաւցիները թերեւս, այդ պատճաով այդ բառը կը գործ ածեն:

-No need to be disrespectful , if you disagree with me I respect that, but you seem to be philosophizing about Islam when you clearly do not know one thing about it, except what your "father Zakariya" says about it.

-You are wrong about the name issue but you do not want to admit it. Many, if not most, do change their names, and name their kids such names, especially in the Arab world. However, this does not mean that it is obligatory. Many religious Muslims also name their kids names that do not have to do with religion, for example "Abir", etc.

-Again no need to get personal with your comments and to deal below the belt strikes. If you do not agree and have something against Islam I understand that, but what does this have to do with who gave me the Nahj al-Balagha?? And let us leave politics out of this. Thank you.

-Peshgir might be Persian or it might be Turkish. Many Armenians in Lebanon use it also, and I am not sure if they do so due to Persian influence (maybe I am mistaken though, someone who knows Persian, please inform us).

I presume your answer to my question is: no.

Edited by Sassun, 25 May 2007 - 09:10 AM.

[Sassun]

What I don’t understand is this compulsion to have a religion, any religion, if not one, the other.
Where is it written that man should have a religion? Who wrote it?
Granted that man is a spiritual, thinking, wondering, questioning, curious animal, as opposed to other mammals. I have said this before. It seems like man does need “religion”, otherwise we wouldn’t have invented it. As the saying goes “necessity is the mother of invention”. It seem there is a need for religion , hence the invention. I said "invention" since it is a human invention.
What it is that one cannot find in one religion that they must search in others. Hocus pocus is hocus pocus no matter in what language. How is Muslim mythology any different or better than Christian mythology, except that the latter is modeled after the Greek with trinity (father mother son) etc.
To me, searching another religion is reminiscent of those who undergo sex change procedures, who claim that even if their physique is of one gender their psyche is of another. Do you think those people find eternal peace? I doubt it.
They asked the skunk why it moves to a new house so often. It says that every house it moves in smells. The house??? smells???
Someone above said that Muslims acknowledge Jesus and Moses as “prophets”. First off , what is the Arabic for “prophet”, do they really have prophets in the judeo-christian sense? Mohammed is a “rassoul” a messenger առաքեալ/apostle** letter carrier, is that their term for prophet ? And also, as Jesus and Moses, in Islam Adam Abraham and Noah are also called “prophets”. So, don’t be so fast to judge. They place Jesus in the same level as that fictitious idiot Noah. Besides, no one has yet any evidence to show the historicity of either Abraham or Moses.
Let us go back to the skunk story. How is one house/religion better that the other when it is us that smells, not the house.

WHY DOES THIS SUBJECT CROP UP PERIODICALLY?
ARE ARMENIANS CONVERTING TO ISLAM EN MASSE?
OR ARE SOME PEOPLE TESTING THE WATERS BEFORE THEY MAKE A HEADLONG DIVE?

* do the Arabs have a word for prophet? The Persians use “peghambar” which is a legacy of their pre-Islamic culture.
** Do you see the "post" in "apostle"?

Arpa

How do you know that religion (any one of them) is a human invention?

Regarding the Prophets, the Arabic word for Prophet is Nabi (singular), Anbiya' (plural). Jesus is a Nabi so is Moses and Abraham. Muhammad is also referred to as a Nabi (al Nabi Muhammad / Prophet Muhammad), but he is elevated above the other Prophets. He is also more commonly referred to as Rasul Allah.

Why does this subject crop up periodically? I was not aware it was...
My post was not about discussion of Islam, or about conversion but about whether you would view someone who converts to Islam (whatever their reasons are) as Armenian.
Also you are saying that since you believe religion is man-made then it makes no sense that people would switch from one to the other. But the one who is converting is not doing so based on the belief that religion is man-made!!! He does so based on belief that there is such a thing as God, Prophet Muhammad, etc., so I don't know how you can talk about religion being man-made? What is the relevance?

Also, you are talking about religion in denigrating terms. I presume you would not differentiate between a devout Muslim and a devout Christian? So why do you talk about the idea of Armenians converting to Islam en masse? Would you think of that as a threat? If so then you are admitting that you are "pro-Christian" and not really against religions no matter what .

Would like to hear your views about this, and also, I think we are going a bit off-topic, so if you don't mind, would you also answer my question (with explanation if possible , as to why/why not) ?

[Johannes]

Խելօք ազգերը գիտեն երբ պիտի օգտուին տուեալներէն: Այժմ ուշ է: Այս զրուցարանի մէջ ուրիշ տեղ մը գրած եմ, թէ մենք հայերս, եթէ՝ հաւաքաբար ընդունէինք այդ կրօնը 7րդ դարուն, ապա միջին արեւելքի կերպարանքը այլ Կըլլար: Ինձ որպէս հայի մշակոյթս, առաջին հերթին հայերէնը կը հետաքրքրէ, առանց լեզուի ինչ ազգութիւն:

Ըսեմ. Եթէ այդ ժամանակ տաճկանային, ապա քուրդեր ընդհանրապէս չէին ըլլար, իսկ եկւոր թուրքերը տարածք չգտնելով կամ կը հեռանային, կամ կը հայանային:

Իրանը մնաց իրան, թէեւ շատ բան կորուսեց իր արիական իրանեան մշակոյթէն, այդուհանդերձ մնաց ամբողջական: Թերեւս մենք ալ պահպանուէինք, մնայինք աճէինք զարգանայինք եւ հայ-իսլամական կայսրութիւն մը ստեղծէինք:

Վերի տողերը կարդալու ընթացքին լաւ նշմարել եթէները:

Հիմա տաճկացող հայը մանաւանդ սփիւռքի տարածքին ապրող հայը, առյաւէտ պիտի կորսուի, որպէս հայ:

[Sassun]

Johannes
Sorry for replying to you in English. My written Armenian is not too good.

Հիմա տաճկացող հայը մանաւանդ սփիւռքի տարածքին ապրող հայը, առյաւէտ պիտի կորսուի, որպէս հայ:

Why?
Do you think a Muslim Armenian would identify as an Armenian less than he did before converting?

Don't you think that by making this assumption you are automatically pushing them away? Even though they do identify as Armenians?

[Sip]

Though I kind of feel offended that you think that someone converts to Islam merely to "get it on with a girl" or "to marry an Islamic man". In fact, neither is necessary in Islam, since a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim (Jewish or Christian) woman and a non-Muslim woman can marry a Muslim man.

I don' t know where you are getting your info but pretty much all cases of Islam conversion that I have seen among Armenians has had to do with Marriage. Maybe the kind of Islam they practice in Iran is a different Islam than you have in mind? But there is no way as far as I am aware that a Christian Armenian can marry a muslim in Iran without converting. Also, I highly doubt the Armenian Church (Orthodox) would allow a muslim to marry in their Church though admittedly, I am far from being an expert in such matters, including marriage.

PS, as far as I am concerned, if a Christian Armenian doesn't marry in the Armenian Church, then by all practical purposes he or she has abandoned the Armenian Church as has "converted" to something else.

[Sip]

Also you are saying that since you believe religion is man-made then it makes no sense that people would switch from one to the other. But the one who is converting is not doing so based on the belief that religion is man-made!!! He does so based on belief that there is such a thing as God, Prophet Muhammad, etc., so I don't know how you can talk about religion being man-made? What is the relevance?

I think the relevance is being Christian is Muslim in defining ones "Armenianness" is probably just as relevant as whether one wears briefs or boxers. In the end fo the day, people will do whatever makes them feel comfortable. As far as religion being "man-made", of course it is "man made". Why would Allah care how you wash your hands after wiping your ass with it? I mean come on.

[Johannes]

Why?
Do you think a Muslim Armenian would identify as an Armenian less than he did before converting?
don't you think that by making this assumption you are automatically pushing them away? Even though they do identify as Armenians?

Համշէնցիներու վերաբերեալ շարաններու մէջ տե՛ս թէ որքա՜ն պաշտպանած եմ մահմեդական համշէնցիները, որքա՜ն այպանած եմ հայ եկեղեցականները, որոնք ան որ քրիստոնեայ չէ՝ հայ չէ ըսելով ըսելով, մեր ազգէն ստուար հատուածներ տաճկացան-թուրքացան:
Այո այն հայը որ կ'իսլամանայ պակաս հայ կըլլայ. ապագային կորսուելու համար: Գիտե՞ս ինչու, վասնզի there is no Armenian moslem community anywhere, therefore you and your generations would melt down inside the huge moslem nations.
With whom will you live? Կը ներես աղքատ անգլերէնիս համար:

[Sassun]

I don' t know where you are getting your info but pretty much all cases of Islam conversion that I have seen among Armenians has had to do with Marriage. Maybe the kind of Islam they practice in Iran is a different Islam than you have in mind? But there is no way as far as I am aware that a Christian Armenian can marry a muslim in Iran without converting. Also, I highly doubt the Armenian Church (Orthodox) would allow a muslim to marry in their Church though admittedly, I am far from being an expert in such matters, including marriage.

PS, as far as I am concerned, if a Christian Armenian doesn't marry in the Armenian Church, then by all practical purposes he or she has abandoned the Armenian Church as has "converted" to something else.

The bolded part is not true. Unless the Christian Armenian you are talking about is a man and wants to marry a Muslim woman. Otherwise, the other way around it works, and it happens in Iran.

I think the relevance is being Christian is Muslim in defining ones "Armenianness" is probably just as relevant as whether one wears briefs or boxers. In the end fo the day, people will do whatever makes them feel comfortable. As far as religion being "man-made", of course it is "man made". Why would Allah care how you wash your hands after wiping your ass with it? I mean come on.

Where did you get that last sentence from?
You seem to know zilch about Islam.

Համշէնցիներու վերաբերեալ շարաններու մէջ տե՛ս թէ որքա՜ն պաշտպանած եմ մահմեդական համշէնցիները, որքա՜ն այպանած եմ հայ եկեղեցականները, որոնք ան որ քրիստոնեայ չէ՝ հայ չէ ըսելով ըսելով, մեր ազգէն ստուար հատուածներ տաճկացան-թուրքացան:

So don't you think that you are doing the same now in this thread as those people have done with regards to the Hamshentsis? Although there is no en-masse conversion of Armenians into Islam now, but still, don't you think it's important to encourage people to keep their ties to their roots and culture and ethnicity no matter what, instead of alienating them and pushing them away?

Այո այն հայը որ կ'իսլամանայ պակաս հայ կըլլայ. ապագային կորսուելու համար: Գիտե՞ս ինչու, վասնզի there is no Armenian moslem community anywhere, therefore you and your generations would melt down inside the huge moslem nations.
With whom will you live?

But why does the community one lives in need to be coupled with a religious adjective? An Armenian is an Armenian, and if I live somewhere where there is an Armenian community, even if they are not Muslim, don't you think I would want to associate myself with them and be viewed as an Armenian rather than as an outcast? Isn't it the community that alienates Muslim Armenians , and not Muslim Armenians who leave and melt away into another nation?

[Sip]

Where did you get that last sentence from?
You seem to know zilch about Islam.

For your enjoyment, please check this link mister Islamic expert How can you claim to know anything about Islam and not know about all the elaborate washing rules set forth by it?

[Arpa]

-Peshgir might be Persian or it might be Turkish. Many Armenians in Lebanon use it also, and I am not sure if they do so due to Persian influence (maybe I am mistaken though, someone who knows Persian, please inform us).I presume your answer to my question is: no.

Do you know what "peshgirji" means? Yep! you guessed it. It means that pimp who hands you the towel to wipe your .., whateber after you have penetrated that disgusting aperture of an "orosbi".
Does "orosbi/o-rospi" have anything to do with "prostitute"?
And as to sliding from Christianity to Islam, is it mandatory to visit a hospital to have a minor surgery to remove that "f*** extra skin?
Give us a better religion that does not place their theology on the prepuce, i.e that extra skin at the end of the phallus. If Allah, whoever F He may be, wanted us to be sans the prepuce He would have created us such. Is it beacuse, in the desert where they would only bathe once every blue moon/crescent, they realized that the prepuce, loaded with smegma was a hygienic impediment. Did they know what water and soap was? Or is their definition of water is synonymous to sand, and that the next water hole/oasis is a million miles away?
How primitive/ pre bathroom/shower/hamam/baghnik can one be?
Or is the sand too abrasive?

Edited by Arpa, 25 May 2007 - 10:48 AM.

[Sip]

By the way, I just learned this one myself:

Invalidation of wudu
Theoretically, one can perform one wudu for fajr salaat and this wudu would be considered valid for the rest of the day. However, certain things invalidate the wudu (often referred to as "breaking wudu") and these can be stated generically thus:

1. Defecation, passing gas or urination.

Well there goes the wudu of pretty much 95% of the men about 30 seconds after performing their wudu. I can just picture them all trying to hold it in before prayer is over. No wonder they want to blow up the world.

Ok sorry about my rediculous state in this thread and I appologize. But I just can't help with when I see people take such things so seriously and actually think it is some sort of divine rule worth killing over. Holding Gas? Baaaaaaaaaaahahaahahaha

Edited by Sip, 25 May 2007 - 10:46 AM.

[Sassun]

For your enjoyment, please check this link mister Islamic expert How can you claim to know anything about Islam and not know about all the elaborate washing rules set forth by it?

First, if you are basing your knowledge of Islam on wikipedia and want to argue with me based on it, then I feel sorry.

Second, you said: "Why would Allah care how you wash your hands after wiping your ass with it?"

Where do you see that??

[Arpa]

Why do I, Sip and others make fun of Religion?
Is it it because we may have more grey matter in our skulls than Allah, Jehovah and Astuac ever did? And that they never heard what a compueer is. Are you surprised? I am writing at a computer keyboard. When did Allah, Jehovah or Astuac use a computer?
Get with it. Get out of that Allah, Jehovah, Astuac garbage and welcome to the 21st century of reason and science, not voodoo myths and mythology/voodoology, as like the "muron"/holy water will absolve all you sins, be they murder, thiievery or adultery..

Edited by Arpa, 25 May 2007 - 11:06 AM.

[Sassun]

ًHow did you turn this thread into an attack on religion in general and Islam in particular??

I did not ask your views about Islam or about religion.

I asked you a clear question, and not many of those who have replied here have answered this question clearly and outright.

It seems you are evading the question, or do not understand that your view is yours and not everyone must agree with you.

I guess I should draw from the above posts the conclusion that you do not consider a Muslim Armenian to be Armenian.
Fine.

[Sip]

First, if you are basing your knowledge of Islam on wikipedia and want to argue with me based on it, then I feel sorry.

Second, you said: "Why would Allah care how you wash your hands after wiping your ass with it?"

Where do you see that??

1. Are you serious?
2. Are you saying the wudu rules in Wikipedia are incorrect? Please explain why you are putting down the link to wiki in this case? Why would you feel sorry for someone who is bringing you a FACT (unless you dispute the wudu rules as being fact).
3. "Muslims are required to perform wudu in preparation for ritual prayers and for handling and reading the Qur'an" ... I think this is more than enough of a justficiation for my statement above.

Do I have to explain more?