ARF historical role

Dear MJ
Does the treaty of Alexandropole rings a bell to you?
Or should I go into lengthy details...

Armenians in the Middle East, (Lebanon, Iran and Egypt) had their McCarthyism years thanks to ARF's cruel, shameful and fratricidal accusations of innocent Armenians of being communists. Their collaboration with the CIA and the Turks under Dr. Khatanassian & co. is well known. They even divided the church...
They destroyed many innocent peoples' lives just because these people did not share their ideology.
These are true facts. Not just an opinion.

Dear Bartev, it does, I suspected that that's what you meant, just wanted to make sure. No need for the details.

That treaty was a Treaty of capitulation. By all norms of international law, it is non-binding. Additionally, the treaty never was ratified by the Parliament of the Republic of Armenia. So, it remains as a piece of recyclable paper of no other than historic significance. Not to lose our objectivity, we have to admit that it was a clever political maneuver by the Government of Armenia, which had resigned just before signing that Treaty, and had not informed the Turkish side. At the same time, they had quietly formed a Bolshevik Armenian Government, which was at the same time negotiating with the Russians to have them to stop the Turks. They had to choose the least evil.

There are only two acting documents, which specify the parameters of the existence of even today's Republic of Armenia:

1. Bilateral Russian-Turkish Treaty of March 17(?), 1921 between the then Russian Federation, and Turkey.
2. The surrogate of this Treaty, the October (?), 1921 Four-lateral Treat between Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkey, with Russia’s signature on the capacity of an observer.

I think you get the idea on hand twisting, which should’ve taken place here.

Cheers,
Martin

Bartev, I believe you. And in the large picture, I think that can be forgiven. Things do happen. But what is important, now that things have changed, and years have past, if the ARF wants to restore its good name, it has to give a political assessment to its past, and condemn it. But I don't think that for another decade to come, anything of the kind is foreseeable.

Dear MJ
This subject were discussed for months, and I will tell you that I absolutely agree with Bartev (in all his thoughts). The only VERABAHUM in this case could be banning of ARF in Armenia. I think it will be for their benefit if they banned.

Just one wishes. I hope young moderate dashnags will win to this evil Communist style bureaucratic GARUYTS.

Harganok
Ararat

Dear MJ,
My intention here is not to condemn the past.
I'm a Ramgavar and Ramgavars did many mistakes in the past and probably will do in the future. But what annoys me deeply is Tashnaks' PRESENT intransigent and un-cooperative stand in every field with ANY non-Tashnag. They don't seem to evolve and their brain-wash "education" is still going on. That's why they should not meddle in Armenia's internal problems. With their present unchanged mentality they might harm again.
For me the TRUE Tashnaks were those who faught and died on the battlefield.
My grand father was one of them.
Regards.

Dear Bartev, I have no particular sympathy for ARF. I just have one comment - If it is fair to ban ARF, it is also fair to ban Armenian Communist Party, and HHSh - Armenian All National Movement. They all are equally guilty, in my view.

BArev dzez
Nax yev arach k@tsankanayi Vorjyunel Hye-fourm'i nor masnakitsnerin .
MJ - Bartev - Boghos yev myusnerin - Barov ek yekel .

Naxorok asem vor chem patkanum yev voch mi kusaktsutyan yev nuynisk chem el hamakrum yev voch mekin,im kusaktsutyuns im azgn e Hayots , tsnvel yev metsatsel em Naxkin CCCP petutyunum ur kusaktsutyun@ amen inchits ver er, yev kusaktsutyan qori tak inch eyin anum mardik bavakanin lav gitem .
Galov ARF kam AYF kam dashanktsutyun .
Arten 2 or e portsum em heru mnal iys temayits sakayn chem karor , chem karor qani vor tesunum em te inchpisin e yerel dashanktsutyan gortsuneyutyun@ yev inchpisin e na iysor.
mek korm dnenk te inch e arel dashanktstyn kochvats kusaktsutyuN@ #1 Hayastani Patutyan orok, inchov e n@pastel yeri-turkrin turkyaum rekavarutyun dzerk berelu mej yev um yev inchi gnov e minchev iysor goyatevum.

yev chmoranank vor dashanktsutyun kusaktsutyun@ kazmvats e rekavarutyunits yev andamnerits , andamner vorontsits shater@ irents kyank@ k@tan Hayreniki hamar yev te Hayutyan hamar.
Yes chem hadurjum dashank rekavarnerin yev yerbek hargank chem el unena n@ranst n@katmamb,
dashanktsakan rekavarner@ voch avel yev voch pakas shakalner en voronk patrast en amen inch tal vor gone mek angam yevs rekavaren Hayastani petutyan@, yev anum en amen inch iydter hasnelu hamar.
avar janaparh@ iydt parstkali yerazankin hasnelu antsnum e bazmativ hayeri diyakneri vrayov. dashanktsakan rekavarner uj yev yerand chen xnayum ashxarkov mek ishxelu Haykakan masanerin lini da Mamuli - TV - radio - mijotsov ,
sra var orinakn e Glandale qaraki Haykakan TV kayani skandal@ ur Mr. Jan Kosakyan@ yev ir mi kani kusaktsakan @engerner@ urraki l@pirshoren gravets yev durs hanets voch kusaktsakan 24Hr-awtv yev mi kani urish HAykakan Tv tsragirner.
hima irenk en yev irents Zurnayi tak paror Tv jamer@.
sa miyayn mek orinak e .
isk qaraqakan volrtnerum dashankner@ bavakanin mets vnas en hastrel Hayastanin yev n@ra bargavajman@, LTP orok ( levon ter petrosyani ) amen dzevov varqabeum eyin HAyastanin yev n@ra rekavarnerin / portsum kangnetsnel tsankatsats ognutyun ( $ ) vor@ Hayastanin er hatkatsvats tarber yerkrneri kormits, varqabekelov yev aselov vor hayatsanum demorkatya chka yev mafyan e rekavbarum yerir@ Hayots. Axer pos@ poror@ inkn e pos@ @enknum yev inch statsvets verchum ?,
1988 dektemberi yerkrasharjits heto der dashanktsutyun@ konkret dzevov chi karoratsel asel te inch patahets iyn milyonavor $$$ vor@ havakvel er Hayatsan urrarkvelu hamar mi kani teletoneri @entaskum.
dashanktsutyn@ der patasxan chi tvel 1970 tvakanerin beyrutum katarats ir vojragortsutyuneri hamar.
dashanktsutyun@ der patasxan chi tvel OCt27 ir katarats deri masin yev@s,
der patasxan chen tvel te inchu hamar Haraf-amerikyan yerkrnerum ur jamankain haka-komunistakn sharjum er matnum eyin urish kusatsutyuneri patkanor HAYERIN, vorstikanerin aselov te n@rank Komunist en , kani kanisneri glux@ keran iyspes.
der patasxan e talu te inchu > hamagortsaksum e CIA - KGB - MUjahed - IZRAYEL yev turkyai het amen dzev portselov tapalen nerka Hayastani rekavarneri vorpist lini Tagavori Atorin,
shat shateris haytni e te inch kardabalet sarketsin Karabaghum, portsum eyin iys norasterts petutyun@ dzerk berel, kani kanisi gluxnern el ester keran irents kusaktsakan garaparaxosutyamb yev amen amis mi kani x@rjuk $4 talov kusaktsakaneri @entaniknerin.
Kazmetsin DRO karuyts@ heto el hrajarvetsin ,

gitek inch karor enk orerov 1000 u mi meradrank tal dashnaktsutyan rekavarneri hastseyin,

Sakayn yes kaseyi mi ban, yeraxtapart em dashnaktsutyan@ menak yev miyayn mek banov
da dashaktsutyan propogandayi hamar.
stertsvats Haykakan dprostneri yev Haykakan Akumbneri - HAykakan yekeretsineri hamar,
iyo iyo yeraxtapart em , chnayats vor sa miyayn yev miyayn irents propogandayi hamar e,
Katarel en shat mets gorts azgapahpanman gortsum . miyayn iys mek@ vor@ kartsum em poker ban che. karutsel Haykakan Dprotsner yev Haykakan yekeretsiner yev akumbner asxharkov mek.
Gone es mek@ karoratsel en anel , gone Hayeren lezu yev Hayots patmtyun grakanutyun en sovoretsrel bazmativ Hayerin trainer sharunak .
Bats en pahel Haykakan Yekeretsineri drner@ / sakayn pakel irenst kusaktsakan @nkerneri achkeri .
Zarmanali e che kan kusaktsakaner voronk Kureren pashtpanum en iys kusaktsutyun@, zarmanali e,
Voch miyayn zarmanali iyl apshetsutsich.

im kartsikov tsankatsats depkum mer sireli Hye-dashnaktsakaner@ petqe haskanan vor irenk Hye en arachin@ minchev dashnak linel@.
qani vor n@rantsits shat shater@ dashnaktsutyun@ dasum en Hayutyunits yev HAyastanits ver.
yev iyspes dashnaktsutyu yevkam dashanktsakan rekavarner@ darstel en mi kertot mashvats tashkinak , mi petutyun ir kitn e srpum dranov mekn el ir yetev@ . isk mejter@ Hay azgn e tujvum yev yerkparaktvum .
de bavakan e mart ek te dashnak.


[This message has been edited by MosJan (edited September 01, 2000).]

I just thought of this: How come no ARF member ever participates in these discussions? Why don't we have them here? Is it because they don't know about this forum, is it becuase they think they will be attacked, or is it because they have their own "forum?"

I am an ARF Member and I posted something earlier which you can check out and actually read before making such strong comments.

They are busy with their propaganda and how to take-over Armenia.
But I have another question: do we need two "gatoghigossner"?
The tashnaks "saved"(!) the Armenian church from Echmiadzin's communist regime.
Now that our chuch is "saved" do we need another Catholocos? Or is he there as a...spare part? Or is it because Echmiadzin is not another tasnnak puppet?

Bartev, I totally agree with you...

Dear Bartev,

I think you are absolutely right. Uniting the church should be a priority. The only serious obstacle on the way is the ARF>

There are signs that the ARF is losing its grip in the diaspora. Just look at the recent elections in Lebanon. A party bigwig couldn´t get elected !

This may mean that they will want to stick to what they have, Antelias, as long as possible. I think they are quite disappointed with their presence in Armenia and Karabagh. Now that they see that even in their traditional strongholds things are not going well, they may retort to their old tactics. I hope not.

iyster LA'um ka mi shat geretsik yev modern Tseranots ( Ararat Home )
ur mer Hye taretsner karor en irenst kyanki verjin tainer@ antskatsnel zbarvel amenorya tarber tesaki mijoitsaruneri, Ararat home'i taratskum e gtvum Dokmekjyan Dahlij@ yev nayev mi geretsik Yekeretsy , vor karutsman jamanak mer metsapativ Kirg Grigoryan@ asel e " iys yekeretsin nvirum em Hye Jorovrtin yev voch echmiyatsnakan yev kam Kilikyo temin , iys yekeretsin tor lini n@rants 2i hamagortselu yev myanalu mek patjar," yev iyspes iys geretsik Ykeretsin Tapur e mnatsel , minchev iysor der chi otsvats kani vor echiyatsnakan tem@ portsum e iren vertsnel yev kilikyo tem@ portsum e ir dzerki tak vertsnel iyn , bavakanin txur e che . yes kaseyi inchpisy korust manavand vor mer tseruniner@ stipvats en 15Mi amen shabat kiraki gnal vorpesi motik Haykakan Yekeretsy hasnen , minchder Haykakan yekeretsy ka henst Ararart Tseranotsi bakum.
ahha yev mek urish orinak Hye Yekeretsu vra dashnaktsakan jnshman masin ,
inchu bajanel / yerkparaktel / yev mimyanst n@kadmamb atelutyun arajatsnel ? artsyok sa e garapar@ dashnaktsutyan - vori n@shanakutyun@ n@shanakum e hamagortsel - dashnaktsel ?

I guess ARF still uses it's intimidation politics. It's a pretty interesting article.

Why would parliamentary elections in Lebanon interest us, here in the US or
any other Armenian communities in the world? Because Armenians are involved,
because they herald the beginning of a new political era and because those
elections have implications to Armenian community life as a whole.
Since the Cold War years, parliamentary elections in Lebanon were nothing but
a sham. Today democratic processes in that small country, where Armenians
play a political role, still has a long way from becoming exemplary. Yet a
new dynamics is in play to change the political landscape.
During the Cold War years, the ARF (Dashnag) party had established a full
hegemony in the Armenian community through the help of the Lebanese police
and foreign ties which influenced the political life in that country.
Intimidation, beatings and assassinations were the hallmarks of that party's
policies. That hunger for power had all but silenced any opposition to the
decisions and whims of the ARF leadership.
The same tactics were used to take over the Cilician See in Antelias, to be
used as the world headquarters for the dissident church.
In recent decades, the civil war in Lebanon and the shrinking of the Armenian
community there gradually brought new changes to the political scene. The
ARF, intoxicated by its fanaticism, failed to notice the changing tides and
continued to implement the same outdated tactics and follow the same path
which led the party to a complete failing.
Out of the seven seats allocated to the Armenians in the parliament, ARF
managed to win only one, that of Sebouh Hovnanian, which is still being
contested by the opposing candidate, Raffy Madoyan.
The Protestant seat, which traditionally was assigned to an Armenian
candidates, was won by a non-Armenian, because Armenian political parties
failed to come to an understanding, mostly again because of ARF intolerance.
Sometimes, in the past, to save face, the ARF managed to enlist recruits from
the Hunchak party to do its bidding. This time around, that task was assigned
to one Mihran Seferian, who failed miserably and the incumbant Dr. Yeghia
Djerejian was re-elected to represent the Hunchak party. The ARF was never
able to buy converts from the ADL ranks and that is why that party was never
able to brace the Cold War era intimidation and win a parliamentary seat.
During these elections, the ADL chairman, Hagop Kassarjian, running on the
Rafik Hariri list, won an impressive victory, garnering the highest number of
votes among Armenian candidates in his district.
Kassarjian, who was instrumental ' along with Haigashen Ouzounian ' in
uniting the party after its recent internal crisis, was able to rally the
entire membership around his candidacy. A young and prominent business
leader, the charismatic new parliamentarian has already gotten his feet wet
in the political arena.
This election changed entirely the political complexion of the Armenian
political leadership in Lebanon, where ADL has a crucial role to play. More
transparent democracy is in the cards. The Druze community leader Walid
Jumblat has warned already that the Cold War is over and that the Dashnag
party has to revise its way of thinking and operating. Should that advice be
heeded by the party concerned ,we may witness more democratic representation
in the political spectrum. That welcome change may also be reflected in the
Antelias power structure where Cold War relics still continue clinging to
their seats. Should that also happen we may see the light at the end of the
tunnel, where a divided Armenian Church was confined for so many years.
Herein is the relevance of the recent elections in Lebanon to issues that
concern all Armenians around the world.
With the demise of the Cold War, the fresh air of democracy has been bringing
changes to many countries. Fortunately that fresh air has been also effective
in Lebanon, where Armenians began to enjoy its dividends.

MY ANSWER to all of you is i think you all forgot who decided to punish all the organizers or the genoicde and who sent its fedayis to fight in the wars of Armenian until today, you forgot personal sacrafices likes lisbon 5, 5 young armenians none older then 21 gave their life to help get the armenian genocide recognized, pleae reply.