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#1 Blizzardman

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:18 AM

Parev everyone. After ~12 years I am trying to read in Armenian again. I need some clarification on a few character sounds. What is the difference between:

թ and տ
ք and կ

Also, I found out that when I learned to read, I was learning the Western script (i.e. պ as b, բ as p). Should I adjust myself to Eastern, because it seems to be the more commonly used one on the internet.

Thanks in advance

Edited by Blizzardman, 05 May 2010 - 10:19 AM.


#2 Arpa

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:46 AM

Parev everyone. After ~12 years I am trying to read in Armenian again. I need some clarification on a few character sounds. What is the difference between:

թ and տ
ք and կ

Also, I found out that when I learned to read, I was learning the Western script (i.e. պ as b, բ as p). Should I adjust myself to Eastern, because it seems to be the more commonly used one on the internet.

Thanks in advance

Dear Bliz, first off. Welcome.
Good questions.
There is no East or West in Armenian. There is only ONE MIDDLE ARMENIAN, it is the Mesropian, where Ա =Alpha Բ=Beta Գ=Gamma Դ=Delta Ե=Epsilon and Է=Eta. We can go on to juxtapose the rest of Ayb-Ben-Gim with the Greek and the Latin
Please note that Ե=Epsilon and Է=Eta were never meant to sound alike
And all those who tell you that word for "բան/ban/word" is "փան/pan/պան" ,or thոse who tell you that Գ is equal to K as Գագիկ=Kakig or Q are full of poopoocaca/պուպուգագա

Edited by Arpa, 05 May 2010 - 11:04 AM.


#3 Blizzardman

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 02:22 PM

There is only ONE MIDDLE ARMENIAN, it is the Mesropian, where
... ... ...

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Can someone tell me what these languages are?

յունարէն - yoonaren
իփայերէն - eepayeren

#4 Johannes

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 11:47 PM

յունարէն - yoonaren
իփայերէն - eepayeren


Յունարէն (hunaren) - Greek

Եբրայերէն (yebrayeren) Hebrew


#5 Johannes

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 12:19 AM

Ionia (Ancient Greek Ἰωνία or Ἰωνίη) is an ancient region of central coastal Anatolia in present-day Turkey, the region nearest İzmir, which was historically Smyrna



See here, to know why Younaren.
Now we say Hunaren.

#6 Armenak

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 06:54 AM

Dear Bliz, first off. Welcome.
Good questions.
There is no East or West in Armenian. There is only ONE MIDDLE ARMENIAN, it is the Mesropian, where Ա =Alpha Բ=Beta Գ=Gamma Դ=Delta Ե=Epsilon and Է=Eta. We can go on to juxtapose the rest of Ayb-Ben-Gim with the Greek and the Latin
Please note that Ե=Epsilon and Է=Eta were never meant to sound alike
And all those who tell you that word for "բան/ban/word" is "փան/pan/պան" ,or thոse who tell you that Գ is equal to K as Գագիկ=Kakig or Q are full of poopoocaca/պուպուգագա

Where's Shahan Araradian when you need him? :D

#7 Blizzardman

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 05:30 PM

So, can help me with my original questions, what is the difference between

թ and տ
ռ and ր
չ and ջ


Also, how is "ու" pronounced when its alone? Is it the same as when its in the middle of a word ("ooh")?

#8 Arpa

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 09:56 AM

So, can help me with my original questions, what is the difference between

թ and տ
ռ and ր
չ and ջ
Also, how is "ու" pronounced when its alone? Is it the same as when its in the middle of a word ("ooh")?

The Greek symbols will not show, see them here;
http://www.appliedla...k_alphabet.aspx
It is no secret that Mashtots was a (western)Hellenophile. The reason why he chose to follow the Greek model, i.e detached rather than the linked (eastern)Assyrian/Semitic, just as left to right rather than the right to left of the others. To answer your question,it is as simple as ABC/Alpha, Beta, Gamma. All one has to do is juxtapose the Greek v the Armenian where applicable, as many of consonants like Ծ Ց Չ… etc. are not found in other scripts. When you juxtapose you will see that the Ben/Բ is the Beta, Գ is the Gamma, Դ is the Delta, Ե is Epsilon Զ is Zeta Է is Eta ,and Թis Theta…. so on…
Coming to ՈՒ/OU note that the letter Hyun/Ւ is placed against the Greek Upsilon, and the Latin U.It was meant to sound like the English W or the diphthong “OU” as in “you”. It seems Mashtots was ahead of his time when he decided to make sure to give the sound of the Anglo-French “OU” he devised the Ու to not confuse it between W and OU. Even then we still confuse the sound of ՈՒ with V as in “ալուան/aluwan / ալվան” an Arabic word that thanks to the Persian and furkish, neither of which have the sound of the Arabic or the English W instead pronounce it as V. and that we cannot pronounce the TH. A lie!!!
----
the greek alphabet
Greek name of letter Symbol English equivalent Pronounciation
alpha a A = Ա
beta b B =Բ
gamma g G =Գ
delta d D =Դ
epsilon e E =Ե
zeta z Z =Զ
eta h E =Է
theta q Th =Թ
iota i I =Ի
kappa k K =Կ
lamda l L =Լ
mu m M =Մ
nu n N =Ն
xi x X =Ք
omicron o O =Ո
pi p P =Պ
rho r r, rh =Ռ/ Ր
sigma s S =Ս
tau t T =Տ
upsilon u U =Ւ
phi j Ph =Փ
chi c Kh =Խ
psi y ps
omega w M =Օ= ԱՒ
-----
Please, don’t let me repeat this.
Those Frankish idiots in Kilikia suddenly realized that we did not have the letters to coincide with the Latin F and the O, so they introduced the Օ and Ֆ. Little did they know that we had the diphthong AU/ԱՒ/O and the PHI=Փ=F. And now, thanks to those other russky idiots, where the Ւ/U is removed and totally replaced with Վ/V. They write AUTO /ԱՒՏՈ as avto instead of “oto/ՕտՈ” Ավտոմեքենայի աgսելը/axle up their noses.Also note that «ավտո մէքենա» =auto-machine that some other idiots call "makina". The Armenian word for "auto-mobile" is ԻՆՔն- ա- ՇԱՐԺ
La Donna e Mobile/Woman is Fickle(movable)/Կինը շարժուն(փոփոխական) է :P

Have you noticed that English "move" is from the Latin "mobile" as in "mobilia", furniture, movable assets?

Edited by Arpa, 17 May 2010 - 05:25 PM.


#9 Blizzardman

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 07:15 PM

-edit-

Edited by Blizzardman, 25 May 2010 - 07:17 PM.


#10 Louise Kiffer

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 09:50 AM

-edit-

--------------------------------------------------

The letters that seem to you the same, are not quite identical:
My mother could hear the difference between the pen and piur - qim and ke - Ta and TO - tsa and tso - tcha and tche...
Nowadays, we cannot hear the difference and we make mistakes when we write.

As for learnign armenian, ther are more Armenians in diapora speaking the occidental armenian.
Oriental armenian is spoken only in Armenia and those who have lived there and who understand it.
But if you want to go to Armenia, you have to learn their language.

Louise

#11 Arpa

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 11:26 AM

--------------------------------------------------
The letters that seem to you the same, are not quite identical:
My mother could hear the difference between the pen and piur - qim and ke - Ta and TO - tsa and tso - tcha and tche...
Nowadays, we cannot hear the difference and we make mistakes when we write.
====
Louise

Yes Louise , I am not surprised. I don’t know when this pronouncing Ben as Pe , Gim as Ke , Da as Ta started. Just like you, my Marashtsi ancestors , when they spoke in the dialect they would distinguish the sounds. See where where I posted a childrens’ rhyme/game “Jor, jor, jor @lla” , “jor” as in “joor/water” not “chor/choor“ Many other examples. Just as many others like Kharberdtsis etc. also did.
I don’t know when this Ayp Pen Kim Ta started. We, as a rule we blame the Polsetsis. I was flabbergasted when I met a woman , born in New York of Polsetsi parents and learned to speak Armenian from them would pronounce “Գող/Gogh, Դուռ /Door, Բաց/bats/open” etc. That is when I began to question where and when this phonetic corruption had started. I wish someone would seriously research. Too bad we don’t have audio records of how Armenians spoke a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago and during Mashtots’ time.
My ancestors would say "door@ bots/open the door/դուռը բոց/դուռը բաց " where often the A would turn to O, like "հաց" would turn to "հոց".

Edited by Arpa, 28 May 2010 - 05:49 AM.


#12 Louise Kiffer

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:41 AM

Some people say: ինչ կընէս կոր
կը կարդամ կոր

Are they Bolsetsi ? or what else ?

#13 Johannes

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 11:20 AM

Some people say: ինչ կընէս կոր
կը կարդամ կոր

Are they Bolsetsi ? or what else ?


Պոլսեցին, ես, դուն ու Արփան արեւմտահայ ենք, աւելի ճիշտ՝ ՀԱՅ:


#14 Arpa

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 01:51 PM

Պոլսեցին, ես, դուն ու Արփան արեւմտահայ ենք, աւելի ճիշտ՝ ՀԱՅ:

Այո, մենք երեքս եւ այլք կոչեցեալ Արեւմտահայ ենք:
Yes, the three of us and a few more are so called Western Armenians.
“gor/կոր “ is neither “bolsetsi “ or any other “tsi”. We have spoken about this at length. “gor” is kind of furkification of the native Armenian G@/ԿԸ when it is used after a verb.
We were strictly forbidden to use “gor” as it was deemed not Armenian, but little did we and our teachers know that it is actually Armenian with a twist. In a few of my posts I indicated that the G@/Gor placed after a verb, sometimes placed both before and after , like “կը կարդամ կը” is of Sebastatsi dialect to stress the present continuous declension. It turns out it is officially recognized as the dialect of Karin/Կարին, nowadays known as “erzurum”. Among others, see the sample below.

Ձեր տղային տվեք
Մէ կնիկմ կերթա տրկցին կնկանեն խնթրե կը`
- Մըմ ձեր տղին տվեք, քա փարխաջը ֆորեն հանե: Ջուրը ֆորեն հանելեն չվանը կտռավ, փարխաջը ընկավ ֆորը:
-Է ձեր տղին ինչ է էղե՞, թող ձեր տղան հանե:
-Չվանը քիչըմ նըրըն է, կյնա օր կռի: Տղիս չէմ ղըմշի:

My take of it is, the G@/ԿԸ placed after a verb turned to “ GOR” to emulate the furkish as in “գամ կը/geliyor, երթամ կը/gediyor”.
Hey SAS, ուր ես "կը կենում կը/կոր»? :P

Edited by Arpa, 28 May 2010 - 02:07 PM.


#15 Louise Kiffer

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 10:47 AM

I once received a letter from Armenia, it was full of "gor" after each verb.

#16 Blizzardman

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 01:34 PM

Hi again everyone. Ignore my first two posts- I've learned the difference between Eastern and Western now. Sorry if my question seemed vague.

Basically what I was trying to ask was, why do we have multiple letters that have the same sound. For example if I wanted to write ջուր (water), how would I know to write ր instead of ռ.

Edited by Blizzardman, 30 May 2010 - 01:35 PM.


#17 Sarkis11

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 12:25 AM

That is when I began to question where and when this phonetic corruption had started. I wish someone would seriously research.

Hello,

I don't know how much of this is true and accurate, but this is what I have read:

Written Armenian used to be only "Grabar" until very recently, that is, 18th Century, and spoken Armenian was composed of a multitude of local dialects, often unintelligible from one region to the other. Armenians from different regions could not communicate with each other in Armenian, and used either Turkish, Arabic, Farsi or Russian. Some didn't even speak Armenian at all, but the foreign language of their closest neighbors.

When the persecutions against Armenians became more intense, a stronger sense of nationality was awakened and the need for a uniform contemporary language became apparent. People began to work on that in several places.

The Constantinople School (Istanbul) began gathering linguistic materials from the Western areas of Anatolia and systematized something that eventually evolved into what we know today as Western Armenian, hence the name "Turkish-Armenian." This happened approximately in the late 18th and early 19th Centuries.

At the same time similar efforts were carried on in Tiflis (Tbilisi), Georgia, and St. Petersburg (Leningrad), Russia, with the dialects of the Ararat region and surrounding areas. Eventually, the Leningrad School came up with what we know today as Eastern Armenian, hence the name "Russian-Armenian." Since the language spoken in the regions that comprise Armenia was more similar to the Leningrad variety, that was adopted as the official language of the country. The Tbilisi school also made great contributions to the systematics of the Eastern Armenian.

It is interesting that the main impetus behind Modern Armenian was not from Erevan, but from Leningrad and Tbilisi for the Eastern language and from Istanbul for the Western language. That means both languages, Eastern and Western, are somewhat artificial and diasporic.

This is the reason why all the literature in Modern Armenian starts in the 18th Century. Before that, everything was in Grabar.

So to answer your question, on one hand, this phonetic corruption started with the persecution that caused the Armenians to lose their language and a new language was made up afterward, or rather two new languages, Eastern and Western; but on the other hand, the local dialects all over Armenia, Russia, Persia and Turkey were so different from each other, that there was no right and wrong way to pronounce things. Of course, I agree with you in that the original pronunciation was closer to the Greek and Latin, but I don't think there was a way to prevent the local changes of the sounds. My grandmother, who was from a little Armenian-speaking village at only 60 km from Istanbul, used to pronounce many words differently, more in line with the original sounds than with Modern Armenian, and I learned to pronounce them like her when I was little.

I don't know how much we can blame the authors of these changes or corruptions of sounds, because they were some of the greatest writers and poets that existed in the Armenian language, and they gave us a language where there wasn't one. Remember that most people in Istanbul and the whole Western Anatolia didn't speak Armenian, but Turkish, and those who were able to go abroad to study, spoke French, German, Italian and English. It was very difficult for them to start speaking Armenian. And many on the Eastern side didn't speak Armenian either, but Russian, Farsi and Arabic.

I hope I didn't make many factual errors, but as I said earlier, this is what I read. I have no way of proving or disproving the accuracy of this information.

Greetings

Edited by Sarkis11, 21 June 2010 - 12:32 AM.


#18 Sarkis11

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 08:58 AM

Basically what I was trying to ask was, why do we have multiple letters that have the same sound.

I think Arpa explained that part of your question very well.


For example if I wanted to write ջուր (water), how would I know to write ր instead of ռ.

The same way you learn how to write English or any other language: by reading a lot and paying attention to the spelling.

I have the same problem. After I left Armenian school at the age of 12, I didn't read or write Armenian for a good many years and forgot great part of the spelling. Now I am having a hard time remembering and relearning it. Often my friends from Middle Eastern countries laugh at my spelling errors, such as գայլ instead of քայլ, and similar misspellings, which change the meanings of phrases in very funny ways.

Another thing I still have not mastered, is what names are male and what names are female. For example, I don't know whether some of the people in this forum are male or female, unless their names are very obvious and similar to English or Latin names or have the typical endings in -ուհի or -ոս.

The only way to learn it is by reading a lot, speaking a lot and looking words up in dictionaries.

Sarkis

#19 Arpa

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 02:02 PM

Hi again everyone. Ignore my first two posts- I've learned the difference between Eastern and Western now. Sorry if my question seemed vague.

Basically what I was trying to ask was, why do we have multiple letters that have the same sound. For example if I wanted to write ջուր (water), how would I know to write ր instead of ռ.

Dear Bliz,
I had not responded to this part of your question.
It may be the worst kept secret that there are two R’s, one soft Ր and one hard Ռ in the Armenian and the reason why. If you listen to the way you speak, perhaps unknowingly you will know why. First off, there are no native Armenian words or names beginning with the “soft R”. “Robert/Րոբերտ” does not count as it is foreign. First listen how we pronounce the R as in arev and barev, then listen how we pronounce the hard R as in RRamkavar and RRaffi. Do the English speakers pronounce the R the same as in “river” and “Ralph“? Do the Londoners pronounce the R like the Scottish? Do the French pronouncez thze R as in rois like the RRUssian RRasputin?
Once again, listen to yourself and see how you pronounce “աՐեւ and աՌիւծ”, the latter being based on the sound of RR/ՌՌ as in lion's “roar”.
As to your question which it is, Ր or Ռ, listen to how you speak. Does how you say “baRev” and Raffi **
sound the same?
**No Wonder the Zeituntsis and the Hamshentsis elide the R/Ր to Y/Յ. We do too. ALMOST. Only when we rezmove the cotton swab betwen our ears and our mouths! :P :D
ԲաՅեւ բաՅեկամ
BTW, Sarkis responded quite adequately avove.

Edited by Arpa, 21 June 2010 - 02:07 PM.


#20 Sarkis11

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 10:14 AM

Hello,

In my previous post about the origins and development of Modern Armenian I should have mentioned the role played by the Armenian translation of the Bible by the American missionary Elias Riggs around 1850. Although many armenophiles criticized it harshly, especially people from the Loosavorchagan Church and the Mekhitarist Fathers, saying that it was not a good translation, that it was either Armenian with Turkish grammar or Turkish with Armenian words, and that it was merely an imposition of American imperialism, it was actually a very good translation, amazingly accurate as far as translations go, in popular language accessible to everyone and was made available to everyone. Every household had one, for many decades it was the only Armenian book that many could lay their hands on, it was the only textbook that schools and orphanages had, and many thousands of Armenians learnt Armenian through it. Many Armenians who knew only Turkish learned Armenian by reading and memorizing the Elias Riggs translation; people who couldn't even pronounce the Armenian letters and sounds, who had never even heard the Armenian language spoken, ended up very fluent and were able to read and write and compose poetry in Armenian. And other translations that came many decades later were not significantly better, if at all.

The Nareg began to be translated from Grabar into Modern Armenian towards the late 19th Century, but the Nareg is a much more difficult book. It has a much richer vocabulary and the sentences are long and complex, with great profusion of figures of speech. The level of literacy required by the Nareg is at least 12th grade or better, and very few people can read it without having a dictionary at hand. The Elias Riggs translation of the Bible, on the other hand, is written in everyday language, easy to read and easy to understand.

Then came some real textbooks, most notably the series by the brother-and-sister team Hrand and Zabel Asadour, called Tangaran, Nor Tangaran and their accompanying grammar books. Later many more were written in Beirut and other places.

It would be a very incomplete history of the Armenian language one that doesn't mention this.

Greetings

Edited by Sarkis11, 22 June 2010 - 10:16 AM.





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