Jump to content


Photo

“love And Loyalty”: Marriage In Secret, In An Environment Of Fear


  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#1 MosJan

MosJan

    Էլի ԼաՎա

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,228 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:My Little Armenia

Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:28 PM

“Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear
By Vahan Ishkhanyan
ArmeniaNow reporter
Harut and Misha got married in Echmiadzin last Sunday. In case you don’t know, those are both men’s names. Harut and Misha are gay.






The couple sealed their commitment, with rings in Echmiadzin
Of course, it was a symbolic ceremony, as the Armenian Apostolic Church does not condone gay marriages. They exchanged rings in the church and staged a small wedding party at a restaurant with Misha’s mother and their friends. They came from Paris especially to exchange vows in Echmiadzin.

Both grew up in environments – one here and one abroad -- where homosexuals are not only disapproved, but despised. They say they were connected by love and wanted to express it in Armenia’s holiest site.

Misha Meroujan, 35, left Yerevan in 1994, after he could no longer tolerate the intolerance toward homosexuals in Armenia.

At the age of 15 he understood that he was gay and suffered from the contradiction of the dominant ways of life and the conflict of his desires.

“I was raised in a strictly Armenian, rabiz (considered low culture), traditional family. When I was still a child I wanted to get away from home.” He left for Russia to study and felt a little freer there. He returned and his parents wanted to arrange a marriage for him.

“I felt I had three options: the first was to get married, the second was to lead a secret life, the third was suicide. I chose a fourth – to leave the country.”

Before leaving for France, even in Russia, Misha thought that his sexuality was an illness. He could not put up with his sexuality: “I considered myself guilty, abnormal, deviated, defective. I was aspiring to become normal. I forced myself to sleep with girls to become normal for everyone. No matter how hard I tried, I could not do it, and suffered even more. And on the contrary, I felt myself dirtier when I slept with a girl and more normal when I slept with a guy. I began to look at my situation more calmly in Europe and understood that I had no problems; the problem was not in me, but it was in Armenia.”

In 2001, he founded the Armenian Gay and Lesbian Association, AGLA, (www.agla.info), and through its website met Misha.

Harutyun Zhonzhikian, 38, was born in Beirut, into a family of a Dashnaktsutyun party member. As a child he moved to Paris together with his family. In his adolescence, when his being homosexual became clear, his parents decided that their son was ill and took him to different psychiatrists:

“My father told one psychiatrist: ‘My son is a homosexual, that’s why we’ve come. I want him to be treated not to lose his life, to be a man.’ The doctor got angry and said: ‘I am a homosexual, too, but as you see I have not lost my life’.”

It was important for the family that their son got married (in the traditional sense), that the traditional family had a continuation: “My mother said she wanted me to get married, ‘do what you want on the side, we will not pay attention to that’. Many gays among Armenians get married and do what they want on the side.”

Harut tells that the community in Beirut caught his cousin with a guy, took him to the club and shaved his head and eyebrows, beat him brutally and threw him into the street. Now the cousin is married, but has a gay partner and his wife knows about him.

Harut refused to marry and lead a double life, and left his family. He didn’t see his family for nine years until they accepted his homosexuality. Even his uncle in Beirut, Dashnak leader Hakob Chanchikian, who wanted to take Harut to Beirut to bring him up there, came to Paris and admitted his having treated him wrong and shook his hand.

Harut began to look for Armenian friends. During a Google search he found AGLA. He met Misha in January. “When we met we didn’t know that we would build a relationship,” Misha says. “Later we fell in love with each other so much that neither I nor he was able to work.”

Misha, as he himself says, led “a hooligan life”, changed his partners very frequently. And Harut, on the contrary, had stable ties, he had one partner for nine years, then another for three years: “Harut told me that he was used to stable connections. I had to make a choice. And what – should I have said yes, copying heterosexuals, choose their sad family model? Something inside me was saying ‘no’, but I looked into Harut’s eyes and said: if he wants we should find a way. When you have feelings, you will go to church and exchange rings.”

Harut is a jeweler and he made the ring that Misha gave him and engraved inside in Armenian: “Love and loyalty.”

Marrying by church was his preference: “I am an Armenian and that’s why I want to get married in Armenia, and as my family taught me, I wanted it to be in church.” He feels sorry that the Armenian church does not accept gays and gay marriages: “I would like the church to change its attitude, it is unfair.”

The couple say they also want to be parents and will perhaps find a lesbian who also would agree to artificial insemination. But the mother, Harut says, must be Armenian.

Until 2003, homosexuality was a crime in Armenia under article 116 of the Criminal Code and a person could be jailed for up to 5 years for having homosexual relations. Under the pressure of the Council of Europe the article was removed, but homophobia remains a national character.

Misha says his mother gradually accepted his sexual orientation. But she asks him to hide it while he is in Yerevan.

“What terrible thing have gays done that they are hated?” Harut asks.

Nevertheless, AGLA played a certain role in changing the attitude towards gays in the Armenian community in Paris. When the organization was established, it was treated with animosity and then they began to tolerate it. “Four years ago when we participated in a demonstration on April 24, they spat at us, but we kept marching without paying heed to it. And then they got accustomed to us,” Misha says.

Misha and Harut want to promote tolerance toward gays in Armenia, too. They help Armenian gays who established an NGO. They did not mention in the statutes of the organization that it is oriented for homosexuals, not to have obstacles in registration and not to become a target for homophobia.

And, as indication of their uneasiness in Armenia, the couple asked that their story not be told until after they had returned to Paris.

#2 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:56 PM

This article is about homosexuals, some of whom lead false lives as "heterosexuals" lying to themselves as well as others.

Society has yet to comprehend that there are those who are truly attracted to both sexes, yet may not practice one or the other. Not all persons who have homosexual leanings are 100% homosexual in their feelings. Not all such persons are living a lie. They are genuinely attracted to both sexes!


---
edit: removed long quoted article. -Sip

Edited by Sip, 10 July 2006 - 02:47 AM.


#3 Harut

Harut

    Վերնագիր

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:հորիզոն...
  • Interests:uninterested...

Posted 08 July 2006 - 03:20 AM

just to clerify that this harut is not me... i still love you girls...

Edited by Harut, 08 July 2006 - 03:20 AM.


#4 Harut

Harut

    Վերնագիր

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:հորիզոն...
  • Interests:uninterested...

Posted 08 July 2006 - 03:28 AM

QUOTE(MosJan @ Jul 7 2006, 11:28 AM) View Post
Marrying by church was his preference: “I am an Armenian and that’s why I want to get married in Armenia, and as my family taught me, I wanted it to be in church.” He feels sorry that the Armenian church does not accept gays and gay marriages: “I would like the church to change its attitude, it is unfair.”


church is a social establishment based on certain doctrines and laws written by the god... are they asking the church to turn against the god? they make no sense...
and why would they want to marry in a church if they're not christian, since they don't follow christ's teaching anyway?

#5 aSoldier

aSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 04:55 AM

QUOTE(MosJan @ Jul 8 2006, 04:28 AM) View Post
In 2001, he founded the Armenian Gay and Lesbian Association, AGLA


hammer.gif I say we tear it up,

anyone care to lend me some ammo? gunsmilie.gif

#6 aSoldier

aSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 04:56 AM

QUOTE(Harut @ Jul 8 2006, 07:28 PM) View Post
church is a social establishment based on certain doctrines and laws written by the god... are they asking the church to turn against the god? they make no sense...
and why would they want to marry in a church if they're not christian, since they don't follow christ's teaching anyway?


Well said!

Edited by sSebB, 08 July 2006 - 04:57 AM.


#7 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 09:02 AM

Hey Harut,

My ambivalence is directly related to the church. How can one's psyche not be impacted by a violation at such a tender age as I was subjected to. You state:

QUOTE(Harut @ Jul 8 2006, 04:28 AM) View Post
church is a social establishment based on certain doctrines and laws written by the god... are they asking the church to turn against the god? they make no sense...
and why would they want to marry in a church if they're not christian, since they don't follow christ's teaching anyway?


Is child molestation part of the church's role in society?

The churches are GODLESS, given what is transpiring and being covered up, as in my case.

"certain doctrines and laws written by the god." Oh please, Harut these doctrines were written not by Gods, but by men. Other doctrines written by Jesus' close associates, including his wife Magdalene, were expunged from his formal teachings by the church "fathers."

What do you know about Christ's teaching that you state that they are not Christian?

Edited by phantom22, 08 July 2006 - 09:03 AM.


#8 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 09:06 AM

Hey sSebB,

Please change your avatar. One does not honor Christ by advocating murder, you hypocrite.

QUOTE(sSebB @ Jul 8 2006, 05:55 AM) View Post
hammer.gif I say we tear it up,

anyone care to lend me some ammo? gunsmilie.gif


#9 aSoldier

aSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE(phantom22 @ Jul 9 2006, 01:06 AM) View Post
Hey sSebB,

Please change your avatar. One does not honor Christ by advocating murder, you hypocrite.


If you couldn't tell I was joking, jeez...

#10 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 08 July 2006 - 09:28 PM

QUOTE(phantom22 @ Jul 7 2006, 06:56 PM) View Post
This article is about homosexuals, some of whom lead false lives as "heterosexuals" lying to themselves as well as others.

Is that a congenital disease like down syndrome or inherited like schizophrenia?
Some may want us to believw that it is so. Yeah right pedolphilia and cannibalism is also congenitally inherited.

If this kind of sacrilege were done in another place of worship…??!!
The Moslems have a saying.
Roughly; “ When the dog has death wish it soils at the entrance of the Mosque”.
You interpret as to what that means.
Is there no limit to sacrilege? Of all the places, the holiest of holy place of all Armenians!
Yes we make fun of our own religion and theology. It only shows, unlike some other religions, we are secure in our beliefs and no matter how much fun we poke at our tenets ( we have recently learned how adherents to other religions lack that sense of humor .. and security in their beliefs) . We make fu of our bishops and poke fun at them and other self appointed “gods on earth”, yet we still reserve the right to defend our sanctities and our sacred sites. Would we tolerate a dog or other varmint to run loose in the sacred sanctuary of Ejmiatsin and soil all over the place?
How is what these idiots are doing any different than a dog running loose and doing its business and copulating in public. Those misguided perverts can do whatever they please in their private quarters, we know they are self destructing themselves with all those filthy diseases… but… please allow us to have at least…

ONE SACRED SANCTITY.

Go do your perverted acts at a mosque, a ….J…..h or pagan temple and see how long you may live.!
Let me repeat; “A dog with a death wish will desecrate a…. mosque, church or temple.”
They must count their blessings that we Christians don’t have such strict and lethal laws as the Moslem Sharia!
Tolerance molerance.
There ought to be a limit!!

STOP MAKING A MOCKERY OF OUR MOST SACRED GROUNDS!!

Go do it in the sewers of Paris.

Yeah, yeah! You will challenge me with my other posts where it assumes that I am cynically agnostic. Maybe I am. But, would I, this little me desecrate a place like Ejmiatsin when 7,999,999 other faithful Armenians would kill to keep the Cathedral sacred??
I will criticizeYerevan and our religious tenets to no end, I have and I do, but let no Turk or other pervert even dare make a mockery of our sacred culture.
AT times I make fun of our culture, just among ourselves but my Otar friends know me as the “crazy Armenian” with good reason as they know very well to not touch certain aspects of our culture. They may have fun with my “big Armenian nose”, but they also know that I will break their noses when , as Geoge Bernard Shaw had said; “Your freedom stops where my NOSE begins”.

#11 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 10:34 PM

Hey Arpa,

Enough about your dolma keet. Where does it say they are doing perverted acts in Echmiadzin Cathedral?I sort of knew that this article that Mosjan posted would make you go unhinged. As for my nose, it was always an aquiline Roman nose and was slighly improved by a famous Armenian plastic surgeon. Lots of French blood in my Armenian Catholic family.



QUOTE(Arpa @ Jul 8 2006, 10:28 PM) View Post
Is that a congenital disease like down syndrome or inherited like schizophrenia?
Some may want us to believe that it is so. Yeah right pedolphilia and cannibalism is also congenitally inherited.

If this kind of sacrilege were done in another place of worship…??!!
The Moslems have a saying.
Roughly; “ When the dog has death wish it soils at the entrance of the Mosque”.
You interpret as to what that means.

Is there no limit to sacrilege? Of all the places, the holiest of holy place of all Armenians!

Yes we make fun of our own religion and theology. It only shows, unlike some other religions, we are secure in our beliefs and no matter how much fun we poke at our tenets ( we have recently learned how adherents to other religions lack that sense of humor .. and security in their beliefs) . We make fun of our bishops and poke fun at them and other self appointed “gods on earth”, yet we still reserve the right to defend our sanctities and our sacred sites. Would we tolerate a dog or other varmint to run loose in the sacred sanctuary of Ejmiatsin and soil all over the place?

How is what these idiots are doing any different than a dog running loose and doing its business and copulating in public. Those misguided perverts can do whatever they please in their private quarters, we know they are self destructing themselves with all those filthy diseases… but… please allow us to have at least…

ONE SACRED SANCTITY.

Go do your perverted acts at a mosque, a ….J…..h or pagan temple and see how long you may live.!
Let me repeat; “A dog with a death wish will desecrate a…. mosque, church or temple.”

They must count their blessings that we Christians don’t have such strict and lethal laws as the Moslem Sharia!
Tolerance molerance.
There ought to be a limit!!

STOP MAKING A MOCKERY OF OUR MOST SACRED GROUNDS!!

Go do it in the sewers of Paris.

Yeah, yeah! You will challenge me with my other posts where it assumes that I am cynically agnostic. Maybe I am. But, would I, this little me desecrate a place like Ejmiatsin when 7,999,999 other faithful Armenians would kill to keep the Cathedral sacred??
I will criticize Yerevan and our religious tenets to no end, I have and I do, but let no Turk or other pervert even dare make a mockery of our sacred culture.

At times I make fun of our culture, just among ourselves but my Otar friends know me as the “crazy Armenian” with good reason as they know very well to not touch certain aspects of our culture. They may have fun with my “big Armenian nose”, but they also know that I will break their noses when , as Geoge Bernard Shaw had said; “Your freedom stops where my NOSE begins”.


#12 aSoldier

aSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 08 July 2006 - 11:53 PM

QUOTE(phantom22 @ Jul 9 2006, 02:34 PM) View Post
Hey Arpa,

Enough about your dolma keet. Where does it say they are doing perverted acts in Echmiadzin Cathedral?I sort of knew that this article that Mosjan posted would make you go unhinged. As for my nose, it was always an aquiline Roman nose and was slighly improved by a famous Armenian plastic surgeon. Lots of French blood in my Armenian Catholic family.


A gay marriage in Echmiadzin? What could be worse?

#13 Zartonk

Zartonk

    Magnificent!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,764 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Մարդկության ու ճշմարտության միջև

Posted 09 July 2006 - 04:46 PM

I accept that approaching the Mother See such and appealing to the church regarding the homosexual union is discourteous and even " blasphemous" - altough against whom or what is a detail I am willing to emend- and that a secular ceremony is far more realistic and apt, but I can't stomach the brutality of the homophobia and the wounding intolerance. Mart en eli, I mean let them be.

#14 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 09 July 2006 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Jul 9 2006, 10:46 PM) View Post
I accept that approaching the Mother See such and appealing to the church regarding the homosexual union is discourteous and even " blasphemous" - altough against whom or what is a detail I am willing to emend- and that a secular ceremony is far more realistic and apt, but I can't stomach the brutality of the homophobia and the wounding intolerance. Mart en eli, I mean let them be.



Yes, of course Zartonk.
Remember, above I said; “It is nobody’s business what they do in private” ? But, when they do it in public, then they become subject to public criticism.
BTW, Phantom. I don’t know what you are talking about. Here we are talking about exchanging of sacred symbols such as rings and applying such sacred words as “marriage”.
“Homophobia”?
Homo means man(kind) , gender neutral.
Why are we using such words to describe a disease?
Would it not be more correct to use “gyno-phobia”? Fear of women, or men, as the case may be?
Yes, yes, I know. Even in the Armenian the word “amusin” has come to mean the male partner of a marriage, but, I am sure you know that technically it is gender neutral, it means “partner in a marriage”(amusnum) , male or female.
Speaking of desecration. Recently I was at a wedding ceremony at another sacred shrine, the Gayane Church, where a long homily was read about Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve.
What is their problem? Why can’t they be attracted to the opposite sex. Don’t they see their own naked bodies in the mirror every morning?
And, of course, we also know that the whole thing is not so much physical but spiritual. Who says we can’t have our spiritual and intellectual partners, be they of the opposite or the same gender? I love my brother even to death, and I love many people of my own gender, we even go as far as kissing and hugging. Who says I can't love a person of the same gender, even if, physically speaking, I would much rather have a Venus of Milo, or Anahit smile.gif smile.gif Does that mean we have to exchange rings and take vows in sacred places, using such sacred terms as “marriage”??
Is there no limits to making a mockery of our long established sacred institutions??

Edited by Arpa, 09 July 2006 - 05:44 PM.


#15 Zartonk

Zartonk

    Magnificent!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,764 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Մարդկության ու ճշմարտության միջև

Posted 09 July 2006 - 05:51 PM

Good point Arpa. Sometimes their actions become really in-your-face and contentious. That is another thing I can't stand: Running around the square with a megaphone screaming "look, I am different/better/a victim/gay/purple etc. instead of just living quietly as whatever you are ALONGSIDE and WITH anyone else.

Edited by Zartonk, 09 July 2006 - 07:52 PM.


#16 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 09 July 2006 - 07:18 PM

I agree with you. This is a political move on their part. They are doing it in-your-face style.

I led a quiet predominantly heterosexual life until one of my co-workers, irate because I spurned her affections and began a relationship with a sexy young executive secretary outed me at work. She had stalked me for weeks, trying to find out my activities. She ascertained who the woman was that I was seeing and also ascertained that I was "doing" guys on the side. She proceeded to tell everyone in my office, destroying my career. Her mother's first cousin is a famous astronaut and former US Senator. The co-worker did this to spite me.

My girlfriend went on to marry a world famous LA attorney, who sent her to Loyola Law School. She is now a successful LA attorney.

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Jul 9 2006, 06:51 PM) View Post
Good point Arpa. Sometimes their actions become really in-your-face and elevationistic. That is another thing I can't stand: Running around the square with a megaphone screaming "look, I am different/better/a victim/gay/purple etc. instead of just living quietly as whatever you are ALONGSIDE and WITH anyone else.

Edited by phantom22, 09 July 2006 - 07:19 PM.


#17 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 09 July 2006 - 08:22 PM

I was "doing" guys on the side. This "friend" was dating Valerie Bertinelli at the time, had recently been dating Paula Abdul and was 1/4 Georgian. His grandmother was born in Tiflis.

Edited by phantom22, 09 July 2006 - 08:23 PM.


#18 Takoush

Takoush

    Veteran

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,025 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 09 July 2006 - 10:50 PM

Arpa, I honestly believe that homos are sick people, they are not normal, and I agree with your statement. To announce their union and go right to our sacred institutions, I think it's insane. I don't like what they did. They are mimicking the bold odars. huh.gif

#19 phantom22

phantom22

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,343 posts

Posted 10 July 2006 - 02:26 AM

Do you have a degree in psychology? Perhaps a medical degree with a specialty in psychiatry? Perhaps a Phd. in genetic biology? You must have the credentials to make the statement that you have made. Achket looys, congratulations on obtaining your advanced degree in this area of expertise.


QUOTE(Anahid Takouhi @ Jul 9 2006, 11:50 PM) View Post
Arpa, I honestly believe that homos are sick people, they are not normal, and I agree with your statement. To announce their union and go right to our sacred institutions, I think it's insane. I don't like what they did. They are mimicking the bold odars. huh.gif


#20 aSoldier

aSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 10 July 2006 - 02:40 AM

It's common sense phantom.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users