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Presidential Elections 2008 In Armenia


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#21 Aaron

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 03:22 PM

First and foremost, for the "nice" people out there who think that corruption will disappear one day from Armenia, that everyone will understand that he/she has to behave ...... well you should better examine the mentality of people in those regions. Italy is a developed country of the G7, yet corruption does clearly exist there and in all countries surrounding the mediterranean sea as a matter of fact. The aim of the government is simply to reduce corruption just below the level at which it is no longer a threat to national security. That's it. There is no talk of profound change and transformation of social values and traditions of the caucasus, mediterranean, and middle eastern nations. And most probably it will remain like this for a while. This also brings in the point that the leaders of Armenia are not the sole responsible individuals for this process..... everything depends on the entire nation.

I firmly believe that the highest leaders of Armenia are far from being as dirty as portrayed (Serge, Robert, Vartan, etc), I can't say the same about the average bureaucrat and government employee because their wages are very low, and I would also steel to feed my family if I was getting 30$ a month. A lot of people criticise them on this forum and in medias in general because it is easy to do so. Few people have the background to actually criticize war heroes. If you go on www.hetq.am you have decent criticism of the regime, it is constructive and intelligent criticism..... not bashing and insulting of the president.

For those who hate kocharian I have a simple question: where were you (or if you were too young, where were your parents) in the summer of 1992 ...... when 48% of karabagh was occupied and tanks were 17km from Stepanakert? Kocharian was in stepanakert, his family too, the option of moving probably existed but he did not take it nor did he send his family away. That's when kocharian first came to a serious power position at the head of the "state defense commitee" with pretty much the following mandate: "To avoid, by any means and by a sort of miracle, the loss of Artsakh and ensure the physical security of the people of Karabagh" .... 2 years later a ceasefire was signed! Of course he did not do all of this alone, the entire nation participated. So where were you? Or your family? The fact is most of us did not participate in the war and neither did our families, mine included (I was too young). I understand that some of you might have been there or members of your families were there, but in general this is an exception, most of us were not present ........ but most of us are present today to insult and bash a president! or a defense minister like Serge or his predecessor Vazgen Sarksian.

People say good things about Vazgen today but it wasn't the case before his death. I was in Armenia during the summer of 1999 and people would destroy Vazgen all day long (he had just been nominated prime minister .... envy and jealousy were all around), forgetting that he had organized the "mahabard" detachment during the same 1992 summer. Today, people say good things about Garen Demirchian? If your memory is good you should remember political conversations in every armenian home during the 80s, try to remember hearing good things about Garen..... I can't.... every taxi driver, every villager, every intellectual would tell you that he was sick of Garen ...... but when he died..... that's another story, everyone cried for him! I guess another proverb armenians use quite often is "kna merir, yegur sirem"!

About diasporans leading Armenia? Well, the first 2 presidents of Armenia were not born on the territory of the soviet socialist republic of Armenia (LTP was born in Syria and Robert in stepanakert).... if Serge, Raffi or Vartan is elected, he will be the 3rd president born outside Armenia! But who cares, as long as the job is well done, right?

Later guys and girls
A.

wink.gif

Edited by Aaron, 20 September 2005 - 08:05 PM.


#22 Aaron

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 07:39 PM

If I offended anyone, sorry...didn't mean to!

#23 Lev7

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 11:58 PM

You people live in some fary land. The only reason Armenia is at least somewhat better than lets say 5-6 years ago is the investment from Diaspora, mainly the money from Lincy foundation, which literally re-constructed the whole Yerevan and construction, new roads, new buildings always lead to economic surge. But this will not continue forever if something else is done. If the whole Armenian economy is controlled by a handful people, this means that there is something wrong with this scenario. Try importing sugar into Armenia, you will get killed the next day. Kocharyan and the whole government is controlled by the mafia, which consists of several families. This is not right!

Yes, Armenia got better, but please do not say that Kocharyan is best for Armenia now, when you say this you automatically make people quesiton your intelligence or your understanding whats really going on over there. If Armenia was ruled with people with western education and mentality Armenia would be a much prosperous country than it is now, where you either have to steal, lie or bribe someone to make a buck.

As Aaron said, yes Kocharyan was in Karabagh during the hard times, good for him what can I say, but this does not mean that he is a good president. Monte Melkonian left his sunny California and fought in the Karabagh war, but this does not mean we should make him a president.

Armenia needs order and needs to end its corruption and under Kocharyan or under any of his people I do not see this ever happening!

Edited by Lev7, 21 September 2005 - 12:02 AM.


#24 Armen

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:28 AM

We have already seen how the diasporans are "not corrupt". Don't want to mention any names but some of you have raised corruption to international level, something poor Hayastantsi leadership could only wish in their wildest dreams.

#25 Takoush

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 04:23 PM

QUOTE (karakash @ Sep 20 2005, 03:44 PM)
You are absolutely right.  The only problem is that the people that own such places are not your average businessmen.  They are owned by the political elite and their friends.  They grant themselves the right to operate such establishments and then funnel money to other projects.


And what about the local and poor people who do'nt have any jobs and they are starving. Some of them I heard on this site are doing illegal and demeaning jobs such as pimping and or starving.

Shouldn't the government think about the people? Where's the love of their country? I get worried, because Armenia is sort of a 3rd world country, it is not the U.S. large industrial and rich. The people are very important for the little Armenia; especially when about a million and a half have gone abroad.

#26 karakash

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:15 AM

QUOTE (Anahid Takouhi @ Sep 21 2005, 05:23 PM)
And what about the local and poor people who do'nt have any jobs and they are starving.  Some of them I heard on this site are doing illegal and demeaning jobs such as pimping and or starving.

Shouldn't the government think about the people?  Where's the love of their country?  I get worried, because Armenia is sort of a 3rd world country, it is not the U.S. large industrial and rich.  The people are very important for the little Armenia; especially when about a million and a half have gone abroad.



Sort of a third world country? I think it is...

Things will get better over time. I'm sure there are individuals who can speed things up more than the current administration, but without the diaspora, nothing can be done.

#27 Lev7

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE (karakash @ Sep 22 2005, 02:15 PM)
Sort of a third world country?  I think it is...

Things will get better over time.  I'm sure there are individuals who can speed things up more than the current administration, but without the diaspora, nothing can be done.


yeap I totally agree

#28 Azat

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 04:41 PM

QUOTE (karakash @ Sep 22 2005, 07:15 AM)
Sort of a third world country?  I think it is...

Things will get better over time.  I'm sure there are individuals who can speed things up more than the current administration, but without the diaspora, nothing can be done.


I have a different view. I say without Armenia Diaspora will vanish

#29 Lev7

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 12:24 AM

QUOTE (Azat @ Sep 22 2005, 10:41 PM)
I have a different view.  I say without Armenia Diaspora will vanish


How did it not vanish for 80 something years when there was no Armenia during the SU?
The important is not Armenia, but the Armenian spirit, Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself smile.gif

Edited by Lev7, 23 September 2005 - 12:25 AM.


#30 Takoush

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 12:54 AM

QUOTE (Lev7 @ Sep 23 2005, 01:24 AM)
How did it not vanish for 80 something years when there was no Armenia during the SU?
The important is not Armenia, but the Armenian spirit, Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself smile.gif


Lev and Azat:

I say that both are important. Armenia and the Diaspora. Yes we survived; but because of the Genocide and the first generation of the Genocide Armenians were more so to speak, deeply rooted Armenians as they were the first and the 2nd generation from the Genocide. Having once been in their anscestral lands, then having seen all that atrocity and the animocity from the merciless enemy (the Turks) with their own eyes and their own flesh and blood made them to be more vengeful and more Armenian. Now the 3rd and the 4th generations are already intermarrying with odars and I don't know if the Diaspora amidst the 'djermag chart' as it is said plenty of times, can withstand without the actual Armenian land.
A land for a people is a vital thing. Without your land in time you will parish.

Yes, today the Diaspora is helping out; however I don't know if the future generations will continue that legacy and the love of their country when they do continue to intermarry with 'odars' non Armenians. An 'odar' never do feel what you and I feel for Armenia nor for Armenians. That is why Armenia must prevail, must prosper and become bigger yet. smile.gif

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 23 September 2005 - 01:02 AM.


#31 karakash

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 09:03 AM

QUOTE (Anahid Takouhi @ Sep 23 2005, 01:54 AM)
Lev and Azat:

I say that both are important.  Armenia and the Diaspora.  Yes we survived; but because of the Genocide and the first generation of the Genocide Armenians were more so to speak, deeply rooted Armenians as they were the first and the 2nd generation from the Genocide.  Having once been in their anscestral lands, then having seen all that atrocity and the animocity from the merciless enemy (the Turks) with their own eyes and their own flesh and blood made them to be more vengeful and more Armenian.  Now the 3rd and the 4th generations are already intermarrying with odars and I don't know if the Diaspora amidst the 'djermag chart' as it is said plenty of times, can withstand without the actual Armenian land.
A land for a people is a vital thing.  Without your land in time you will parish.

Yes, today the Diaspora is helping out; however I don't know if the future generations will continue that legacy and the love of their country when they do continue to intermarry with 'odars' non Armenians.  An 'odar' never do feel what you and I feel for Armenia nor for Armenians.  That is why Armenia must prevail, must prosper and become bigger yet. smile.gif


I must agree with the above. One cannot survive without the other. I am however pessimistic about the prospects for the diaspora, especially here on the East Coast. I've been to many Armenian churches and communities and they don't compare to communities on the West Coast or to the ones in the Middle East. Because of smaller numbers and a greater percentage of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation Armenians, the situation looks like it is getting worse. It seems like there has always been an influx of Armenians here on the East Coast to help sustain the community. From the 1960-1980s the ones from the Middle East and then the ones from Armenia after the earthquake, Artsax, and independence. What would have happened had the large group had not come to the US from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, etc. What about the Armenians from Baku and Armenia. The diaspora cannot sustain itself with 2nd and 3rd generation Armenians in for example a community like Worcester (one of the oldest on the East Coast) without new people. The older gneeration dies off, the younger ones marry odars most of the time, and without new immigrants, the churches suffer, communities reduce in size, and some people even say church services should be in English. Now I'm going off point. I'm not trying to be pessimistic but what's going to happen in 20 or 30 years on the East Coast without a new wave of immigrants.

#32 Azat

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 09:49 AM

QUOTE (Lev7 @ Sep 22 2005, 11:24 PM)
How did it not vanish for 80 something years when there was no Armenia during the SU?
The important is not Armenia, but the Armenian spirit, Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself smile.gif



Exactly my point. one guy will be left in Africa, one is Asia and maybe even one in Australia but at least we will have 10000 churches.

FYI, Armenia did exist for 80 year during SU and it prospered very well. But even with that you cant tell me that the diaspora has not gotten gotten more assimilated and that every year we loose more and more Armenians. Without Armenia, Diaspora will disappear from the face of the world.

#33 phantom22

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 10:24 AM

The way to hold on to the Armenian diaspora is to remain flexible. When there are litmus tests as to who is accepted as an Armenian, you lose those who potentially would maintain loyalty to the group.

#34 Arpa

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (Lev7 @ Sep 23 2005, 06:24 AM)
Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself smile.gif

In don’t know about the authenticity of that story but it brings to mind a joke.

There was this highly successful Armenian who bought himself an Island, much like Long Island. He made a whole country for himself. He built himself a palace, a museum, a theater, a sports complex, a library and a convention center and TWO CHURCHES on either end of the Island. When asked; Why ONE of everything, but TWO CHURCHES? He pointed to one of the churches and said; “That is the church I don’t go to”.

End of joke.
Remember the 1001 curches of Ani?
Can you touch them?

Edited by Arpa, 23 September 2005 - 11:05 AM.


#35 phantom22

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 11:07 AM

My cousin once scolded me. He asked me "How dare you go to those Dashnag dances?" I told him that I was not a "dyed-in-the-wool" Armenian like he was and considered an Armenian an Armenian regardless. I ended up marrying a woman whose family attended a Dashnag church. My brother ended up marrying a Jew.

#36 Aaron

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 11:33 AM

I was talking with a friend a while ago about what type of model is most appropriate for the armenian nation. Having a country (i.e RoA) is essential, it is actually a very big thing, a sort of basic starting point that we are very lucky to have (some people take it for granted!). But the story is not as simple as it seems: bringing all armenians in the homeland and living there happily, in the "land of armenians" is not realistic in my opinion. The diaspora will exist for a very long time, always fueled with new migrants.... this is not an armenian phenomenon, the entire world has become like that, find a US city that does not have an italian. pakistani, indian, chinese, greek, or mexican community, you can't!

The difference should be in the type of diaspora we want to build. I just read an article from the armenia2020 website on armenia-diaspora interactions and perspectives. Very intelligent and accurate study, you should definitely read it, it will clarify many things (it's only 35 pages, you'll go over it in one or 2 hours). They present a scenario entitled "organized decentralization" which, in my view, seems to be the optimal outcome: Different communities in the world, fairly well organized, with a sense of belonging to the community but strongly related to armenia through contacts (friends, visits, work terms, studying at armenian universities, etc). This way, when armenians in the world move around, whether from armenia, or from community to community, they will always find an extension of Armenia, a school to send their children to, a church, a community center, friends, contacts, help, advice, etc. This is actually very probable. how many of you on this forum are students who don't know exactly where they will be working after graduation, it's probably going to be in big cities of the world, where industries are.... and we'll have a community in each one of them!

This will be a globalized sort of nation, with a base, Armenia, that fuels the peripherals and is in turn helped by the latter. The fact that diaspora armenians will be moving around very often, and that only a small percentage of them will settle in Armenia (in the best case scenario) is undeniable. Even armenians from Armenia will want to go abroad, work, gain experience, make money, perhaps come back, and this is not only related to the economic situation. There are tens of thousands of french who immigrate to canada every year, yet France is a G7 country. It's just the way the world has become and in order to survive this, we basically need to amend some organizational aspects of our communities. Note that a lot has already been done, communities, churches and schools exist, this new task is not to be seen as a "mission impossible". President Kocharian said it during a meeting with diaspora organizations 6-7 years ago, something like: "The diaspora with its institutions, traditions and organizations is an asset for Armenia and the armenians, if these structures did not exist, it would have been necessary to create them at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars which Armenia does not have."

Just read that study about armenia and diaspora and let me know what you think!The topic was about armenian leaders, no? how did we get all the way here?

Later boys and girls

A. wink.gif

Edited by Aaron, 23 September 2005 - 11:39 AM.


#37 Killuminati

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Posted 24 September 2005 - 01:18 AM

I can rule.
And I will.

#38 Takoush

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Posted 24 September 2005 - 02:40 AM

QUOTE (Azat @ Sep 22 2005, 05:41 PM)
I have a different view.  I say without Armenia Diaspora will vanish

I agree to this.

Armenia is very vital to Diaspora.

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 24 September 2005 - 02:43 AM.


#39 Takoush

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Posted 24 September 2005 - 02:43 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Sep 23 2005, 11:59 AM)
In don’t know about the authenticity of that story but it brings to mind a joke.

There was this highly successful Armenian who bought himself an Island, much like Long Island. He made a whole country for himself. He built himself a palace, a museum, a theater, a sports complex, a library and a convention center and TWO CHURCHES on either end of the Island. When asked; Why ONE of everything, but TWO CHURCHES? He pointed to one of the churches and said; “That is the church I don’t go to”.

End of joke.
Remember the 1001 curches of Ani?
Can you touch them?

Although this is a funny story; but years ago when some Armenian people separated our church here in the U.S., then I heard unfortunately it wasn't funny. wink.gif

#40 Proud EXPAT

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Posted 24 September 2005 - 04:23 AM

QUOTE (karakash @ Sep 20 2005, 02:44 PM)
You are absolutely right.  The only problem is that the people that own such places are not your average businessmen.  They are owned by the political elite and their friends.  They grant themselves the right to operate such establishments and then funnel money to other projects.


This generalization sucks. I know many diaspora Armenians who are not in any way involved in politics who run these kinds of businesses.

karakash you mentioned something about a diasporan not being elected but someone close to kocharian such as oskanian or sargsian. ah, isn't oskanian a diasporan? second if sargsian became president, completely completely impossible if there were fair elections, but believe me NO ONE will vote for that idiot. if he became with unfair elections the only thing that will lead to is another revolution in eastern europe.

Edited by Proud EXPAT, 24 September 2005 - 04:25 AM.





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