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#41 Arpa

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE (shiner @ Mar 26 2001, 06:04 PM)
Is there such a thing as Armenian food? I mean, is there a food/drink item that is particularly Armenian, without it also existing in other cultures? I can't think of anything.

Does basturma qualify?

[ March 26, 2001: Message edited by: BTac ]


Yes there is.

It is called ծիրտ/tsirt as in bird droppings, as in "turkey droppings".

Dammit!

Who said that "dolma", "sarma" and "lahmejun" were Armenian!!??
No dictionary worth its ink will define those words as "armenian".
Why do Armenian institutions, i.e. churches, advertise "Armenian" smorgasbord with such obviously Turkish dishes as "shish kebab", "dolma", "sarma", "baklawa(Arabic)", "tabouleh"(Arabic), "lemjum" (Arabic, or whatever the hell).

Sorry MJ, "dolma" is not Greek it is glaringly from the Turkish to mean "to fill/to stuff", as if we don't have words to mean the same.
Do we?
When will the Armenians learn to cook for themselves and stop using such alien words as "dolma" "sarma" and "kaklama"!!
Why don't our own "Julia Childs" have the least decency to not advertise Turkish names of our own cuisine?!! A cuisine that those savages had never seen until they set foot in our "kitchens".

Name me one Armenian dish with an Armenian name!!
When Turks rename "kebab" as "khorovats" then maybe I will once again start eating "Armenian food".

Do we have a national cuisine or are we forever condemned to eat "TURKEY/arab,greek,persian droppings"?

Me?
I will keep on eating pasta, pizza and hamburgers. At least I know they are respectively and exclusively purely Italianand non-Turkish.

The hell with dolma and sarma!!!
That is until we rediscover their original Armenian names.
Yes. They were Armenian dishes until we forgot our own language and succumbed to that gobble-di-gooky turkey droppings.

Edited by Arpa, 04 October 2005 - 10:57 AM.


#42 kakachik77

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 01:09 PM

Arpa jan, you made my day, great points throughout.

Of course XASH AND XOROVATS is our smile.gif

#43 kakachik77

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 01:13 PM

BASTURMA is a very turkish thing, in fact it came to Anatolia on the backS of the turkish horsemen, the method was developed by them to preserve the meat for long journeys.

#44 Anileve

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 02:17 PM

Jeez Arpa, who cares? Nothing in gastronomy is authentic and exclusive, each culture borrowed something from another. Arabs brought olive oil, rice and oranges into Spain, and now paella is considered to be a cultural dish. Spaghetti originated in China and was brought to Italy, now it's considered authentically Italian. I don't think that anything was stolen, trade and geographic location had a major influence on several cuisines, and I find that to be fantastic. It just shows that despite political differences people can always connect through food. Shows people's sense of superiority (insecurity) when they try to prove that they are solely responsible for some creation, there are so many other principles that are worth enduring, I just can't see this one being the sensible one.

#45 Azat

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 02:27 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Oct 4 2005, 09:44 AM)
...
Name me one Armenian dish with an Armenian name!!
...

Xash, Harisa, Spas, Xashlama, lavash, and I am sure there are many others.

#46 Arvestaked

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 02:46 PM

One thing people should keep in mind is that just because the words used for some dishes are from Turkish, it doesn't mean the dish is Turkish. I believe soujoukh and chikufteh are both Armenian.

#47 Arpa

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 03:50 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Oct 4 2005, 08:46 PM)
One thing people should keep in mind is that just because the words used for some dishes are from Turkish, it doesn't mean the dish is Turkish. I believe soujoukh and chikufteh are both Armenian.


Is my English defficient?
Why can't I get it across?
We are not talking about whose ethnic food or whose creation it is. We are talking about their Turkish names. Why? Don't we have a language of our own?
I wish you would have chosen another example to label Armenian, that is other than "chikufteh" which is(linguistically) as "turkish" as can be. You could have at least called it "hum-kufteh" instead of the Turkish word "chi-raw".
Who repeated that myth about "pasta being Chinese"? It can't be further from reality as wheat is not cultivated or consumed in China. Remember their main dish- "flied lice" (fried rice)?
Is Turkish coffee Turkish?
Where in Turkey does coffee grow?
Guess who inroduced that demitasse brew to Europe and called it "turkish"!
Speaking of which, this was aired some time ago but may be useful now as well.
It is not written by an Armenian but look and see who says "coffee" was brought to Vienna by whom.

The savvy traveler

So what else is Chinese?
Even Sip knows that barbeque is Mongolian, not Chinese. smile.gif smile.gif



Edit note - i fixed the broken link

Edited by vava, 18 November 2005 - 10:17 AM.


#48 Arvestaked

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 04:10 PM

At no point did I address you specifically.

I'm sorry but I'm quite sure "kufte" is an Indo-European word. Ask the Indians. So it's not "as Turkish as can be."

You know quite well why it's called Turkish coffee. You know it's the preparation and not the beans. Are they deserving of the credit? Probably not but that's different.

The reason why Armenians used a lot of Turkish words to describe things is probably similar to why my maternal grandfather's completely Armenian father didn't speak a word of Armenian. It's called Ottoman oppression. You can be upset at the empire for it but don't get so passionate about blaming the Armenians for being in a situation that made it difficult to hang on to cultural elements.

I can't be a 100% certain that pasta is a Chinese concoction but I can say that your reference to the origin of wheat being elsewhere does not even come close to proving that it is otherwise.

#49 ED

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Oct 4 2005, 02:50 PM)
Even Sip knows that barbeque is Mongolian, not Chinese. smile.gif smile.gif



chi karogh patahel, xorovats da haykakan e,
Arpa du lriv aghavaghumes mer xorovats@ wink.gif

there is nothing wrong with dolma/tolma, i dont care who invented it i just miss my mothers tolma very much, oh people its only a food smile.gif ,

have you tried dolma with yougert? mmmmmmmmM pilav with potatoes in the bottom of a pan? or pilav with chamich?...man i'm out to make some wonderfull chamichov pilav before my wife gets home smile.gif

#50 Arpa

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Oct 5 2005, 12:26 AM)
chi karogh patahel, xorovats da haykakan e,
Arpa du lriv aghavaghumes mer xorovats@ wink.gif


Bari akhorzhak!
Edward, yes yerpeq mer khorovats@ chem aghavagher smile.gif, ankaskats ayn lriv yev zut Haykakan hnarq e. We have already spoken about that even the word is based on the Armenian"khore/kharel" that means to singe to char.

Yet, no one dare even suggest that Sip's favorite dish the Mongolian barbeque is Chinese. One never knows how he may react. He may make khorovats of our seats. He seems to be in bad enough mood with his computers playing hide and seek on him already. smile.gif smile.gif

#51 Arpa

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:09 PM

I also noticed that some time ago, (you can see it on page 1 of this thread)Mosjan had listed quite a few Armenian dishes.
Apris Movses. I have never seen so many purely Armenian dishes in one place.

Here is that list again;
======
ok lets see
#1 Xash
#2 XAshlama
#3 Harisa
#4 Lavash
#5 Matnaqash hats
#6 Sibex - ( T@tu )
#7 Shushan ( T@tu )
#8 Chanax Panir
#9 ~Korak-Karkraxith-Ishxan
#10 HAjar-Ajar -Pilaf-
#11 Aveluk
#12 Qyavara Qyufta
#13 Qyalla -TAvari<>Vochxari
#14 Chanax - Soup - KAvi amani mej - HImnakanum Lennakanum
#15 chobani XAshlama - Vochxari Tiki mej a yepvum Kraki Tak
#15 Tonir-i Xorovats
#16 PAnir-Xash Tel panir+Lavash+Sox+Your=Jur -
#17 Qrchik - t@tu KArambo + Dzavar + Your Jur + TAvari mis ( Soup )
#18 Bishi - GArni-Gerrard shrjanum klor Qartser hatsatsesak
#19 j@mur - HAykakan Boqon hats +HAlats Yur+ Merrer - Sisyan Goorisi Shrjan
#20 BAnjarov Soup
#21 TApakats JAV - JAknderi t@per@ dzvi yev yturi mej tapakvats - marinat yerats
#22 DAL - nor ts@n@ndaberats Kovi Katov yev m@r@rov + Dzu
#23 s@nkapur _ Dilijani TSari Sunk + Hajar + MIss
#24 RApama - MIjin chapsi d@dum Tondri mej yepvats hamemunknerov yev hnderenov ltsvats
#25 t@jvjik - Sox@ mandder mander - MArmand Gragin vra
#26 MAndak
#27 TSirani Djem
#28 TSirani Hyut
#29 TSirani Chir
#30 Anushabur
#31 KAtnov
#32 TEl MAnir
#33 Sindz
#34 Arandz
#35 Doshabov - MAtsun
#36 Tarxana - "Soup Tan"
#37 Tan Apur " Spas "
#38 Motal Panir ( Leninakan )
#39 Masur-Matsun ( Goris _ Sisyan )
#40 Gata ( qarster Arri )
#41 Kololak Soup ( Horti msov & dzavarov )
#42 Pochov Apur ( Tavari Poch )
#43 Derdzi Anali ( dertsi chir ltsvats Tarnber teski Hnderenov yev urish chirerov )
#44 Lavashov duk - Lavash+Dzuk+Vochxari karaq + qari vra yepvvats (Qyavar )

Jrik Jasher-> Qyavari Inknavar Jorovrtakan Sharjum Gerb@
Qarahunji Orri
N@rran Gini
Tsirani Orri

Avazi Vra yepvats Paplavoki Coffe
es verchin@ 101% Haykakana En el Erevenyan et yes dzez Garant em talis

[ March 27, 2001: Message edited by: MosJan ]


#52 skhara

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:09 PM

So there was a reason why I always hated dolma, even more than tomatos, and Arpa has shown me the light. Its turkish, that's why I hate it. Although the grape leaves I can tolerate a bit more than cabbage.

Now of the khorovadz and kebab -- in our 'neck of the woods', it was always shashlik. Arpa, is it ok to eat shashlik? Is it kosher?

QUOTE
have you tried dolma with yougert?


I always have dumped a whole bunch of sour cream, with lots of bread on the side, to avoid tasting dolma. wink.gif

#53 ED

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE (skhara @ Oct 4 2005, 06:09 PM)
  Arpa, is it ok to eat shashlik?  Is it kosher?



oh boy, Shkara you shouldent have said kosher, god help you now biggrin.gif

#54 skhara

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:16 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Oct 4 2005, 07:12 PM)
oh boy, Shkara you shouldent have said kosher, god help you now biggrin.gif



Its G-D Ed! smile.gif

#55 Arpa

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE (skhara @ Oct 5 2005, 01:09 AM)
So there was a reason why I always hated dolma, even more than tomatos, and Arpa has shown me the light.  Its turkish, that's why I hate it.  Although the grape leaves I can tolerate a bit more than cabbage.

Now of the khorovadz and kebab -- in our 'neck of the woods', it was always shashlik.  Arpa, is it ok to eat shashlik?  Is it kosher?
I always have dumped a whole bunch of sour cream, with lots of bread on the side, to avoid tasting dolma. wink.gif



Of course. You can eat anything you want.

Be advised that we are not talking about the dishes themselves but their nomenclature. Why are we using Turkish names for Armenian dishes? Don't we a have language of our own? Or are we still speaking Turkish after so many years?

As Ed already said we don’t use the word “kosher”, it belongs to certain other people. It simply means clean as opposed to unclean. In Armenian it will be maqour.

I don’t care for the cabbage kind either. Yet what you refer as dolma, western Armenians call sarma (a Turkish word meaning to roll to wrap, just as dolma means to fill to stuff). In the west dolma is stuffed eggplant, zucchini or any other vegetable all the way from tomatoes, peppers, potatoes , and even, are you ready? Sheep intestines. Yech!!
I’m not sure I quite know what shashlik is, from all indications it seems to be a Russian dish, the Russian version lamb khorovats.

Here is something ironic. As we all know all of those dishes are prepared and eaten by most everybody in the Middle East and beyond. The Syrians and the Lebanese also make stuffed/wrapped grape leaves but oddly enough they call it “yabraq”. It is from the Turkish “yaprak sarma”, they have dropped the “sarma” part. It literally means “leaf” as in grape leaf.
Why can’t we learn a lesson from the Lebanese and name that delicacy simply “terev” or “terev lits“? Yet one goes to an Armenian Church food festival where everything is labeled in Turkish. Do the Turks label their barbequed meat as “khorovats”, or their sweet soup “anushapur“?

If we had as much ethnic pride we could have been living in Van and Sebastia now.

That’s alright. When the Turks take over Yerevan they can feel right at home with, dolma, sarma, yalanchi, kebab, imam bayildi, sou boerek and sini kufteh. How about lemjem *or whatever the hell it is and basturma.

If I were a king for a day I would take all those so called Armenian cookbooks where there is not even one Armenian recipe, and make a huge bonfire to cook khorovats with.

* It is Arabic, lahm-ou-ajin, it simply means meat-and-dough. Would not msahats descriptive enough?

#56 skhara

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 08:39 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Oct 4 2005, 07:59 PM)
I’m not sure I quite know what shashlik is, from all indications it seems to be a Russian dish, the Russian version lamb khorovats.


It is a Russian word, but I think Russians varied it from the turk name. And although lamb is most popular, it can also be pig and cow. The term is pretty widely used in the Caucasus.

QUOTE
If I were a king for a day I would take all those so called Armenian cookbooks where there is not even one Armenian recipe, and make a huge bonfire to cook khorovats with.


Make sure you make enough for everybody.

Edited by skhara, 04 October 2005 - 08:40 PM.


#57 Harut

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 09:46 PM

hats u panir,
ker u banir...

#58 kakachik77

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:02 AM

How about Sevani Ishkan zhuk smile.gif iskakan haykakan

#59 Takoush

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 02:09 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Oct 4 2005, 08:59 PM)
Here is something ironic. As we all know all of those dishes are prepared and eaten by most everybody in the Middle East and beyond. The Syrians and the Lebanese also make stuffed/wrapped grape leaves but oddly enough they call it “yabraq”. It is from the Turkish “yaprak sarma”, they have dropped the “sarma” part. It literally means “leaf” as in grape leaf.
Why can’t we learn a lesson from the Lebanese and name that delicacy simply “terev” or “terev lits“?

* It is Arabic, lahm-ou-ajin, it simply means meat-and-dough. Would not msahats descriptive enough?

Arpa:

All this talk about 'khorovats' and 'dereve litsk' at 4 o'clock in the morning makes me very hungry.

However all my life, my mother hates anybody saying sarma in front of her.
She always says "dereve litsk" and she would be upset at me anytime if I said sarma or the like. In her presence especially, I have to say dereve litsk. She knows all the good Armenian vegetable words such as, hazar, garos, esdebghin, aghtsan, azadkegh, sempoug.....and many many more, and she always likes to utilize only the Armenian words. She always says, we are Armenian we must utilize only our language which is rich. She also hates anyone who mixes any other language with the Armenian. Armenian must be spoken only in Armenian in its entirety, she says.

You and my mother will get along together very well. tongue.gif

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 07 October 2005 - 02:21 AM.


#60 Arpa

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 05:14 AM

QUOTE (Anahid Takouhi @ Oct 7 2005, 08:09 AM)
Arpa:

All this talk about 'khorovats' and 'dereve litsk' at 4 o'clock in the morning makes me very hungry.

You and my mother will get along together very well.  tongue.gif


Yeah!
Are we invited? smile.gif

I feel passinately about the subject since just like George W, (not this one you silly smile.gif ), I cannot tell a lie either. That is I cannot fight the Turks from one side of my mouth and eat "Turkish"? food at the other side.

It is noteworthy that the so called western Armenians, specially those who hail from Kilikia, and whose ancestors spoke /knew Turkish, not by choice mind you, for the most part are more sensitive about the issue.
I have noticed that those who have no inkling of Turkish, or for that matter Armenian, like some American-Armos, and sad to say even Yerevantsis and Isfahantsis , for lack of linguistic diversity do actually think that the names of those dishes are in fact Armenian. Let me repeat; THE NAMES of those dishes.. Why do we call that delicacy “chiy kofteh” or that pilav “bulghur pilav” (the jury is still out as to where “pilav” comes from, the Indians call it “pilaw”). Don’t we have a word for chiy/raw? What does hum mean? Don’t we have a word for bulghur, what does tsavar mean? I have seen many a Bulghurjian family change their surname to Tsavaruni.

I have said this before. THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW, and it must come down from the top, our institutions, mainly the church who are our front to world, at least in the Diaspora. How can one advertise “Armenian Food Festival” where every dish is labeled by foreign names? Many with that disgusting (non)language. Here we are fighting tooth and nail to disassociate ourselves from that Ottoman legacy , yet we speak Turkish every step of the way, specially in our kitchens.
Which do we believe?
We viciously attack those poor little Turks that come here and innocently, at times propagate their l of perception of the issues, yet we turn around and have dinner where every dish is labeled in Turkish. I am glad that they have not yet graduated to the level to comment on our Turkish surnames and our so called Armenian cuisine.
It is ironic that the Turks have relabeled that dish “doner kebab” that the Arabs call, “shawurrna”, from “chevirme” an original Turkish word meaning swirling./turning.

Speaking of “there ought to be law”, some time ago I learned, much to my delight that the Diocese had made it known that belly dancing was not welcome at Armenian parties, not so much based on its ethnic implication but rather on cultural and moral bases. Why can’t the diocese advise that food at Armenian festivals be labeled by their Armenian names? There was a time when nobody would have noticed it but now that there are sizable Turkish communities here, imagine that at respective festival the same dish will be labeled with the same Turkish name as at the Turkish food festival . Duhhh ! Which is it?
There was a time we felt safe that the general public would associate such as dolma, sarma, yalanchi… ad infinitum, ad nauseam with Armenian culture. But now that there are so many other ME and Asian cultures promoting their wares in their own language, be it Arabic, Persian, Turkish or Afghani, is it not time that we develop our own vocabulary, lest the public, going from one food festival to the other be confused and eventually judge US as imposters for displaying Turkish and Arabic dishes and calling them as Armenian?

There are only so may dishes to go around yet each people call them in their own language.
Kafta is Arabic for “hamburger”, we use it to mean kneaded mixture of meat and tsavar, same idea. Steak is the same no matter where yet each nationality has their word for it. Hot dog with slight variation of ingredients is known as wiener in Europe.

Are we the only “idiots” to not have a cuccinal lexicon, and instead promote Muslim Turkish culture at our Christian Armenian Churches?
With the free propagandist like us who needs a lobby.
Every one should boycott those so called Armenian Food Festivals until they relabel their wares with the proper Armenian names.

I do!!




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