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Why Are There Armenian Protestants?


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#61 Sasun

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 04:13 PM

America-hye. what's wrong with Animal sacrafice?

Nothing wrong with it, it is just not Christian. You give an animal (which belongs to God) to God. Actually, you don't even give, in the end you eat it, God doesn't eat. So what is the value in that?

Actually, there is some value. Although not Christian, a sacrifice means you care about God, no matter how big or little the animal could mean to you (provided you do it soulfully and sincerely rather than out of custom). You have little, and you sacrifice that little for God.

In fact, in the ancient Aryan culture sacrifice had a quite different meaning. I suspect what we call "matagh" is the Christianized version of the Aryan sacrifice.

#62 Arad9

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 10:37 PM

[SIZE=14]America-Hye
Jesus was not a vegetarians. by the way do you eat fish?
MJ

Since I don’t think that you are capable of conducting yourself properly, and since you have a tendency to make pompous statements on subjects that you don’t know enough about or haven’t thought enough yet, I will give you two references as my last word with you:


Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.


Ephesians 5:33

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.


Proove what you say don't just call names.
colossians 1:24 or Eph5:33 in no way says

Christ has defined the Church as a gathering of three people who speak in His name. Therefore,

If there is one person is God present?
MJ you haven't proove your point and you are building theology on that false statment.
I'm saying The church of Christ that you belong to is a cult.I can proove that it's a cult. Why would you leave the Armenian church for that?
My advice to you [SIZE=14]get out[SIZE=14]

#63 America-Hye

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 10:56 PM

Arad,

I am a VEGAN and a strict one. I do not eat fish, dairy or eggs. I do not even eat honey. When I visited Armenia, the border guards (who were Russians and not Armenians by the way) pulled me aside at customs because they thought that I was an impostor. I look much younger than my chronological age. When I was in Yerevan, when the locals asked me how old I was I lied and told them that I was 10 years younger than my true age, and they still did not believe me.

The books of the Bible originally stated bread, not fish. Look beneath the surface please. Do not accept what you have been handed at face value.

#64 Arad9

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:27 AM

America hye,
There is nothing wrong with being a vegatarian.
The Bible doesn't teach to be a vegaterian, especialy not the way you are keeping it. John the baptist ate only locust and honey, Jesus caught fish,jesus was even the one that provided the ram for Abraham to sacrafice. it's all over the Bible. If you read romans 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."
I have a Chinese employee who looks twenty years younger and he eats things like ducks' feet, eggs that are partialy hatched.
I'm a vegan only during lent, also i don't eat meat on wed and fridays(fish is ok) i don't think it's healthy not to eat meat or drink milk. do you have infants and would you give them milk?





















' 4Who
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#65 Sip

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:00 AM

... jesus was even the one that provided the ram for Abraham to sacrafice.

What? How did that happen? Didn't Abraham's whole sacrifice thing happen waaaaaaaay before even Noah landed in Armenia whose decendents ended up giving birth to Marry who somehow magically gave birth to Jesus?

#66 Arad9

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:51 AM

Sip
here is a quote from john chapt 8:56-59
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Jesus is God according to The Armenian church and the Bible.
here is a quote from Philipians chapter 2
6Who, being in very nature[1] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[2] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

BY the way noah was before Abraham.
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#67 axel

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:55 AM

As usual, MJ is twisting everything and using sophisms of all sorts. What is his point? That there be problems inside the Armenian Church as an institution? Who says there aren't? Does this imply we should reject our Faith?
___________________________________________________________________

Vartanantz
Excerpts from Sermon Delivered by Fr. Vazken Movsesian
15 February 1998

Once again we are given an opportunity to reflect on Vartanantz
- a battle which took place in 451 A.D. Vartan has become a
hero for the Armenian people. He has a special place in the
Armenian soul. One of the first poems that Armenian children
are taught is a couple of verses claiming, "I am the grandchild
of Vartan." It's interesting, because we remember a war that we
have lost and yet we celebrate it. Today, I'd like to share
with you a few ideas about Vartanantz and its importance to us,
not merely as Armenians but as people.

Vartan is not just an Armenian hero. He's not only a warrior.
Rather, he's received one of the highest honors of the church,
he is a saint. We refer to him as saint Vartan. In fact, its
because of the Church that Vartan is remembered today. As all
the saints, Vartan too was a human being. He had all the
frailties of a human. He went through all the trials and
tribulations that we go through; however, he was able to rise
to the occasion and leave his mark in this world.

Let's go back to the time of the Battle of Vartanantz - to 451.
Christianity had only been accepted for 150 years. The
conversion of Armenia took place at the time of St. Gregory and
King Dirtad in 301. Don't think that Armenians woke up one day
and they were Christians. The conversion process took many
years (in fact, as we see, its still taking place). The Bible
was translated to Armenian in 431. But in this short time the
Light of Christ and had infected the soul and psyche of a vast
number of Armenians. For the first time, their new found faith
was going to be put to the test and they we willing to die
rather than betray their Christian faith.

I don't want to get into the details today about Hazgerd, Vasak
and the rest. What is important is that Vartan lead a battle of
the freedom of conscience. Christianity was part and parcel of
their being and the freedom to express themselves essential.
They wanted to express their faith in Christ Jesus in the same
manner that we did today - through the worship, scriptures and
the receiving of the Holy Communion. On the night of the
battle, Catholicos Hovsep and Ghevont the priest the troops in
prayer and they received Holy Communion - the body and blood of
Jesus.

The legacy that St. Vartan leaves us is one of self-
determination. We as people, being created in the image of God,
have the right to determine our own future. This characterizes
us human beings. But unfortunately, our psyche as a people has
been so battered that we may not believe this. If you think
about what we teach our children as Armenian history, it's very
negative. We talk about one defeat after another. We talk about
Armenians being killed, tortured, raped, massacred and being
the victims of Genocide. Have you ever asked yourself why
anyone would want to be a member of such a group? This negative
history creep into our collective psyche. We being to see our
selves as some dispensable commodity. We lose hope and we
believe in destiny rather than self-determination.

St. Vartan leaves us a legacy of self-determination. Throughout
history we've come to many crossroad, just as we do throughout
our lives. Self-determinations means we have the option to
choose which road we will take. If St. Vartan believed in
destiny, i.e., his fate was written in the stars or in the
grinds of his coffee cup, he would have folded his arms and
kicked back. Why fight? We're going to die anyway? Why buck the
system? Instead he stood up and knew that it was their right to
determine their own future. A person who cannot write his own
future is a slave. He might as well give up on life. But Christ
did not bring slavery. He brought freedom. Through the Church
Vartan understood that freedom. He understood Christ's word's
"I cam that you may have life and have it more abundantly," as
a promise that was already fulfilled.

God gives us the tools in life. He gives us intelligence,
talents and most importantly He gives us life. The rest is up
to us. We have the power to make or break life. But with that
power comes responsibility. We are responsible for our actions.
The childish approach is to blame an outside force - "the devil
made me do it!" The mature approach is to take the
responsibility for our actions. In our Church, the sacrament of
Penance is exactly that - taking the responsibility for our
actions.

The Battle of Vartanantz is not just a moment in history. It is
not a story or a memory. It is not some nationalistic holiday.
It is a commission. It is a call to action. It is a call to
determine our future and at the same time to take
responsibility for it. In other words, the Battle is not over.
That is what is so special about Vartanantz. It is a battle
which begins in 1500 years ago and its outcome will be
determined today! Vartanantz has not finished.

Vartanantz 451 is history. Vartanantz 1998 is reality. We are
the generation who will determine who won the war. As long as
we sit back idle and let the stars determine our destiny… as
long as we see the spiritual decay of our community and say,
"it's meant to be" … as long as we stay away from the Armenian
Church and Her Orthodox Faith… as long as we erect artificial
barriers between the different members of our community… as
long as we remain complacent about our faith and national
aspirations… we have lost! The Persians have won the war. But
every time we take charge of our lives… every time we spread
the love that Christ has taught us… every time we rise to the
occasion to demonstrate the Christian experience… Vartan has
not died in vain. We win the war.


Today, take with you the message of action. Whether its your
individual life or the life of the community, nothing will
happen unless you first decide that you need to get involved.
God empowers you to make a difference. Take hold of that power.
Don't abuse it, but at the same time don't let it slip through
your hands.

#68 America-Hye

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 03:37 AM

Armenian unity will not come from a narrow perspective, but from a wide one. It seems that I have to repeat over and over again that WE came very close to getting a Genocide Resolution passed in the US Congress in 2000 because WE Armenians worked in unison. Place a Gregorian Armenian on a highrer moral plane than a Catholic or Protestant Armenian, or a Ramgavar higher than a Tashnag or Hunchag or visa versa and you will create division.

#69 axel

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 04:33 AM

Place a Gregorian Armenian on a highrer moral plane than a Catholic or Protestant Armenian, or a Ramgavar higher than a Tashnag or Hunchag or visa versa and you will create division.


No one has put Gregorian Armenians on a higher moral plane than Catholic or Protestant Armenians. We are not judging individuals here. We may express a critic of protestantism without implying that its followers (who are mistaken) are morally inferior.

One should also recall that those Armenians who were converted to catholicism or protestantism are the ones who created division in the first place.

The Armenian Apostolic Church is the only place where we may unite as a People.

#70 America-Hye

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:07 AM

Axel,

Your views are not exceedingly clear. Just as I supposed. We come from VERY divergent world-views. We are speaking on different planes, whose tangents will not meet. I have experienced this before, especially among my own people. That is why I have exhiled myself form the Armenian community and am now with those whose views are more similar to my own.

#71 Harut

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:53 AM

The Armenian Apostolic Church is the only place where we may unite as a People.

i thought it was the Freedom Square just next to the Opera House.

#72 axel

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 10:32 AM

Your views are not exceedingly clear


My views are quite clear. If you are not able (or willing) to understand them, that is your problem.

i thought it was the Freedom Square just next to the Opera House.


This is a materialistic point of view :D

I should have added the time dimension and emphasized spiritual unity between past, present and future generations.

Edited by axel, 16 September 2003 - 10:33 AM.


#73 America-Hye

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 11:51 AM

Axel,

That was a typograhical error on my part. I meant to type "NOW" not "NOT."
It should have read " Your views are NOW exceedingly clear."

#74 Arad9

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:09 PM

How can you hold on to your identity as an Armenian yet depart from your Church? Did Vartan Mamigonian fight a lost cause? Where not Sahak and Mesrob, the inventors of our alphabet(not to mention a couple of others alphabets as well) Armenian Priests? Why be proud of our heroes, if you don't share in their beliefs and what they stood for?

Did countless Armenian clergy, Saints, soldiers and people die, so we as Armenians could either escape or move to another country and then have the audacity to criticize there beliefs as, and let me put it in the terminology that Protestant missionaries used, “degenerate and backwards”. Some American Armenians rather assimilate, case in point, then to stand out differently in society for there Church, culture and ethnicity cause they want to “fit in” or “be cool”.

Perhaps, America-Hye you can tell us how could Armenians be proud of there history yet reject the Armenian Church?
How can we be proud of Vartan Mamegonian and not believe on what he fought for?
How can we be proud of Sahak & Mashtots for giving us the alphabet, when the most important for the alphabet was to translate the bible. As for you exiling yourself from the Armenian community haven’t you done that already by not holding to your faith as an Armenian and what we stand for?

America-Hye you have a church which is your home, which our ancestors have fought for, pick-up your cross and join your brothers and sisters in Christ.

#75 Arpa

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:29 PM

Surprise, surprise!
During those days Sahak and Mesrop were the only TWO who could read and write.
Are you surprised that I can read and write not only in Armenian but in several other languages.
Get real!
Learn to read!
I'm afraid that next you're going to tell us that Tigran Mets was also a Christian priest, that he had the sign of cross held high when he invaded all the way to Jerusalem.
Vardan Mamikonian did not do us much good by DYING. Vahan Mamkonian did us us much more good by surviving and conducting guerilla warfare. (Read my post about Nvarsak). If dying is your definition of a good Armenian, then please include me OUT. And if you don't know what "thanatology" and "martyr mentality" is look it up.
We need to LIVE not DIE.

#76 America-Hye

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:53 PM

Arad,

Tell me! What do we stand for? In LA, do we stand for the criminal activity rampant in our community? Do we stand or intolerance in all it's forms? Do we stand for prostitution in all the red light districts of Turkey and the Middle East? Is this what we stand for?

#77 America-Hye

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:59 PM

Arad,

I did not depart from "MY" church. Parts of my family have been Catholic since the Cilician Kingdom, and in fact we are partially French from that era. The Church I departed from at a tender age was the Catholic Church, or the Church departed from me. My parents abruptly pulled us out of that Church when I was 7 to raise us as Protestants.

#78 axel

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:59 PM

We need to LIVE not DIE.


Well this is true. But it is better to die as a human than live as an animal.
A people with no ideal nor faith is mere cattle.

#79 Arad9

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 03:04 PM

Jesus said
matthew 10:38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
pick up your cross and follow him. It means to pick-up your cross of suffering, I am not saying, go and kill yourself, what I am saying is to keep our faith and traditions regardless of suffering.
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#80 Harut

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 03:20 PM

I am saying is to keep our faith and traditions regardless of suffering.

that's one good piece of advice.
i'm going to keep OUR faith and traditions, OUR VERY own faith and traditions. you know, the ones the Christians tried to erase from within us.
how's that for a change?




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