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#1 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 03:41 PM

I heard from a family friend that recently came back from Armenia that Jews are buying up property in Armenia? Is it true? I sure hope Armenians do not mix with Jews due to fact that Jews now claim that they are not "Semites", but directly are related to Hittites and Armenians? By the way, If you want Articles published by Jews that try to connect themselves with Armenians I will gladly find them for you.

Edited by Vigil, 29 August 2004 - 03:42 PM.


#2 vava

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Vigil @ Aug 29 2004, 05:41 PM)
I heard from a family friend that recently came back from Armenia that Jews are buying up property in Armenia? Is it true? I sure hope Armenians do not mix with Jews due to fact that Jews now claim that they are not "Semites", but directly are related to Hittites and Armenians? By the way, If you want Articles published by Jews that try to connect themselves with Armenians I will gladly find them for you.


Geez Vigil - this is beginning to sound like an obsession... what gives anyway? I mean, what is the big deal?

Actually, nevermind, I won't have time to read your explanation.

#3 Arpa

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:09 PM

Vigil, does your "family friend" also see boogey men and martians?
Did he say what kind of money is being used, Drams or Sheckels?
How are they moving the property to TelAviv?
Or are they using them as new "settlements"?
Now that Jew are not Semites any more, do we have to invent a new term as substitute for A-S?
How about anti-Hittic, or anti-Armenic?

#4 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Aug 29 2004, 04:56 PM)
Geez Vigil - this is beginning to sound like an obsession... what gives anyway? I mean, what is the big deal?

Actually, nevermind, I won't have time to read your explanation.


Vava, you may think I am "paranoid", but did you know that most of the genetic studies conducted on Armenians were done by Jews and the results were directly traced to Jews and Turks? WHy the hell are they trying to connect Armenians to Jews? Furthermore, I have read several articles that tries to connect our history with theirs.

Here is one example:

QUOTE
WHO ARE THE MODERN JEWS?
By Scott Stinson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this age of brain-dead media programmed zombies, would it still be possible for the facts to speak? If so, there is something worth saying about the modern "Jewish" race, not written by anti-semites, but by Jews themselves - and where else but in The Jewish Encyclopedia! Please excuse me for being so abrupt, but I had to get your attention. You see, this article is worth reading because it has some facts that you need to know about the authenticity of today's Jewish race. The question that must be asked as well as answered is simple: Are the modern Jews really the descendants of the ancient people of Israel? The source of our information is also quite simple: The Jewish Encyclopedia. Hopefully we will not find any anti-Semitism in the writings of these Jewish scholars. However, the reader should be forewarned. Their articles were written long before the age of mass-media social engineering and do not contain any of the familiar buzz-words common to today's new views. In other words, brace yourself for a factual scientific analysis of the racial origins of the modern Jews. Oh, and should you decide to verify any of these facts, you will find them in your local library in the 1901-1905 edition of The Jewish Encyclopedia. So, please, do read on.

At the turn of the last century there was great interest stirring in the science of anthropology. In the wake of this, Jewish scholarship turned its watchful eye upon itself and began to examine the racial claims that modern Jews make to the ancestral heritage of ancient Israel. The results were startling. The religious community found itself completely alienated by its scientific counterpart. The scientific method was coming face to face with religious traditions and there was a great unsettling in the land. The facts were telling a different story than what had been heard for centuries in the local synagogue. In his article on Purity of Race, Joseph Jacobs relates something of the dilemma that was gripping the Jewish community at this time. He writes: "The question whether the Jews of today are in the main descended from the Jews of Bible times, and from them alone, is still undecided" (Jew. Enc. X (1905), 283). What a startling statement to come from a Jewish scholar and to be printed in The Jewish Encyclopedia! However, scholarship must have its reasons. Let us look further to see what the scientific community had discovered that would warrant such a radical and perplexing statement.

In his article on Purity of Race, Jacobs gives several important facts that were forcing anthropologists of his day to reconsider the modern Jew's racial claims to be Biblical Israel. In the study of craniometry which involves the measurements of the skull, the evidence was clearly mounting against the modern Jews. After extensive samples were taken from a broad spectrum of Jewish groups world-wide. The conclusion was evident. Jacobs writes; "They are predominantly brachycephalic, or broad-headed, while the Semites of Arabic origin are invariably dolichocephalic, or long-headed" (Jew. Enc. X (1905), 284). Simply put, all known Semites have historically been long-headed, but the modern Jews were predominantly round-headed! While Jacobs avoids drawing any personal conclusions, he relates a prevailing view of his time: "Some anthropologist are inclined to associate the racial origins of the Jews, not with the Semites, whose language they adopted, but with the Armenians and Hittites of Mesopotamia, whose broad skulls and curved noses they appear to have inherited" (Jew. Enc. X (1905), 284). The findings of some anthropologist were leading them to conclude that the modern Jews were not in fact Semites at all. but rather descendants of the ancient Hittites. Jacobs however was personally hesitant to confess that the Jews were not the Jews, simply because of the profound implications it imposed. He also wrote the article on Anthropology and there declared: "Much turns upon the preliminary question whether contemporary Jews are of the same race as those mentioned in the Bible" (Jew. Enc. I (1901), 619). Jacobs obviously realized the implications of the data he was receiving. It suggested the revolutionary idea that the Jews were not in fact the Jews. He again presented the anthropological evidence the cranial measurements of the modern Jews, stating: "Their skulls are mainly brachycephalic; that is, the breadth is generally over 80 per cent of the length. This has been used as an argument against the purity of race, as most Semites - like the Arabs and Syrians - are dolichocephalic, or long-headed" (Jew, Enc. I (1901), 619). Jacobs avoids any personal conclusions. He was the former president of The Jewish Historical Society of England and obviously could not bring himself to break with the great strength of the "Jewish" tradition.

But Jacobs was not the only Jewish scholar of his day that was attempting to come to terms with the startling discoveries of his time. After all, it was the talk of the Jewish community. The haunting question persisted, Were the Jews really the Jews? In his article on Craniometry, Jewish scholar Maurice Fishberg provides a more comprehensive treatment of the "Jewish" cranial findings that were turning the Jewish world upside down. Moreover, Fishberg was a licensed medical Doctor and a medical examiner in New York City. He was clearly an expert in his field and eminently qualified to comment on the data at hand. Unlike Jacobs who was tied to the Jewish historical society, Fishberg presents the facts much more objectively. Forthwith, he declares: "As is at present accepted by nearly all anthropologists, the shape of the head is the most stable characteristic of a given race" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 335). The article by Fishberg is thoroughly educational as well as informative. His scientific frame of reference is immediately evident. He includes numerous charts and statistics, a complete inventory of all the cranial data collected on the Jews to date. Fishberg also gives an understanding of some of the basic concepts and terminology. He writes: "The cephalic index is expressed by multiplying the width of the head by 100 and dividing the product by the length ...The broader or rounder the head is, the higher its cephalic index, and vice versa. When the cephalic index is above 80 anthropologist term it 'brachycephalic'; between 75 and 80, 'mesocephalic'; and less than 75, 'dolichocephalic"' (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 333). Dr. Fishberg then proceeds to present all the Jewish cranial findings in classical scientific form. He writes: "Appended is a table of nearly 3,000 Jewish heads, from various countries, measured during the last twenty years" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 333). In the table that follows, there is not one Jewish head that has a cephalic index below 80, and they are taken from a wide variety of countries spread throughout Europe, Russia, and Asia Minor. Fishberg comments on the data: "On an examination of the figures in this table a remarkable uniformity of the cephalic index of the modern Jews will be noticed....nearly 90 per cent are between 81.5 and 83 ...Another remarkable fact is the striking absence of the dolichocephalic type, which is characteristic of all the other modern Semitic races" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 334). Dr. Fishberg also presents a large graphic chart which shows the cephalic indexes of the Jews by percentage. This chart peaks upward at the cephalic index measurement of 82, indicating the average Jewish mean. Fishberg comments on the overall percentage factor: "What is worthy of notice is the small percentage of dolichocephaly - only 1.58 percent - and the large preponderance of brachycephaly, 76.48 per cent" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 334). The Jewish medical examiner also confirms the representative nature of his findings. He states: "The cephalic indexes from which this curve was obtained were those of Jews in various parts of the world" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902L 331). Fishberg then provides a table of cephalic indexes by gender which shows little significant difference. He writes: "There appears no perceptible difference between the cephalic index of Jews and that of Jewesses" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 335). Finally, Fishberg addresses the most obvious and confronting problem with his findings, specifically how they relate to the racial claims of the modern Jews. He writes: "The most important problem suggested by a study of craniometrical results concerning Jews is the relation of the type head of the modern Jews to that of the ancient Hebrews and to the modern Semitic skulls. The pure Semitic skull is dolichocephalic, as may be seen from a study of the heads of modern Arabs, Abyssinians, Syrians .... The only way the type of the head may change is by intermixture with other races. If the ancient Hebrews were of the same stock as the modern non-Jewish Semites, and if the modern Jews are their descendants, then a pure dolichocephalic type of head would be expected among the Jews. As has been seen, all results of craniometry prove that the Jews are brachycephalic, and that the dolichocephalic form is only found among them in less than two percent of the cases" (Jew. Enc. IV (1902), 335). Fishberg presents an excellent summary of the problem. If the modern Jews are descendants of the ancient Hebrews and are supposed to be Semites, then dolichocephalic skulls would be expected. However, the exact opposite is true. The Jews are predominantly round-headed. Fishberg provides some other cranial data, but draws no further conclusions. The factual data he presents, however, is some of the most incriminating evidence to have ever been collected against the racial claims of the modern Jews.

Like the shape of the skull, the shape and configuration of the nose is another important racial index that was recognized by anthropologist at the turn of the century. It is also another clear sign against the modern Jew's racial claims to be Biblical Israel. It turns out that the so called "Jewish nose" is not Jewish at all, but rather comes from the ancient Hittites, as do also their round skulls. Dr. Fishberg is also the author of the article on the Nose. On the importance of this area as a racial index, the Jewish medical examiner writes: "The relation of the breadth of the nose to its length, known as the `nasal index,' has been considered one of the best means of distinguishing the various races of mankind" (Jew. Enc. IX (1905), 339). Fishberg proceeds to present a table of the nasal indexes of the modern Jews. Their marked similarity to one another and peculiarity to others again predominates in this table. Joseph Jacobs, in his article on Anthropology, also mentioned the peculiarity of the Jewish nose, stating: "The nose is generally the characteristic feature of the Jews, who have, on the average, the longest (77 ram) and narrowest (34 mm)" (Jew. Enc. I (1901), 619). In attempting to address this peculiarity, Fishberg presents some of the current thinking circulating among the anthropologist of his day. He writes: "Some authors show that this form of nose is not characteristically Semitic, became the modern non-Jewish Semites, particularly such as are supposed to have maintained themselves in a pure state, as the bedouin Arabs, do not possess this characteristic nose at all Their noses are as a rule short, straight, and often 'snub' or concave. Luschan holds that the hook-nose is by no means characteristic of the Semites, and contends that the number of arched noses that are found among the Jews is due to ancient intermixture with the Hittites in Asia Minor. He shows that other races also, as the Armenian, for instance, who have a good portion of Hittite blood in their veins, have hook-noses" (Jew. Enc. IX (1905), 338). Thus, the notorious "Jewish" hook-nose is another clear sign to the true racial origins of the modern Jews.

According to all the racial indicators recognized by leading anthropologist at the turn of the century, the modern Jews have more in common with the ancient Hittites, than with the ancient Israelites. In another early publication written about the same time, this statement is found in the article on the Hittites: "The human type is always brachycephalic [round-headed], with brow receding sharply and long nose making almost one line with the sloping forehead. In the sculptures of the Commagene and the Tyana districts, the nose has a long curving tip, of very Jewish appearance" (Enc. Brit. XIII (1910), 537). It should be evidently now that the round-headed hook-nosed Jews of today have a definite racial connection with the ancient Hittites, remembering or course what Joseph Jacobs wrote: "Some anthropologists are inclined to associate the racial origins of the Jews, not with the Semites, whose language they adopted, but with the Armenians and Hittites of Mesopotamia, whose broad skulls and cuffed noses they appear to have inherited" (Jew. Enc. X (1903), 264). Moreover, a portrait of one of these Hittites taken from a sculptural relief found on the tomb of an Egyptian Pharaoh clearly reveals what looks like a typical modern Jew (Jew. Enc. VI (1904), 427). The resemblance is so startling it is uncanny! In light of this, and all the other scientific evidence, confirmed and verified, it should be enough to convince any rational person that the modern Jews are standing on very shaky ground in their racial claims to be descendants of Biblical Israel. If you don't believe me just read The Jewish Encyclopedia, remembering of course that there is nothing anti-Semitic about it. After all, the Hittites were not Semites at all. hittites.htm


Now, my take on this article is that it was written to discredit Jews, however, why is the Jewish Encyclopidia trying to connect Jews with Armenians? Furthermore, the recent edition (YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT ONLINE JUST GOOGLE IT) states that Armenains originated from Jews? They are using the Khorenatsi idoicy to connect us with them.

ARTICLES ON GENETICS AND ANTHROPOLOGY THAT TRIES TO CONNECT ARMENIANS WITH JEWS:

QUOTE
Author: Steinberg AG
Filed: 30/09/2003, 14:10:35
Source: Am J Phys Anthropol 1980 Sep; 53 (3), pp. 375-82.

Title: Gm and Inv studies on eight Iranian populations with distance measures among the six from the Caspian Littoral.

Author(s): Steinberg AG

Source: American journal of physical anthropology [Am J Phys Anthropol] 1980 Sep; 53 (3), pp. 375-82.

Journal Info: Country of Publication: UNITED STATES NLM ID: 0400654 ISSN: 0002-9483 Subsets: IM

Serum samples from six populations living in the Caspian Littoral anf from two populations (Armenians and Muslims) living in Teheran were tested for Gm(1,2,3,5,6,10,11,13,14,17,21,24,26) and for Inv(1).
The Gm data show that all six populations from the Littoral have African and Mongoloid admixture. Genetic distance among these six populations was estimated using Nei's standard distance measure, and its standard error, based on the 11 loci analyzed by Kirk et al. (1977); on these 11 loci plus Gm; and on the foregoing 12-plus Inv. Only the distance measures for populations 1 and 4, 2 and 3 are significantly different in all three measures of distances, and then only at the 5% level.

More loci will have to be studied before firmly based conclusions may be drawn concerning the relation of these populations to each other.
The Armenian population, unlike the remaining seven populations, shows no evidence of African admixture, but it does show Mongoloid admixture. The Muslim population shows African and Mongoloid admixture and, in addition, has the unusual haplotype Gm3,5,10,11,14,17,26 at polymorphic frequencies.


Please explain to me like a two year old why a Jewish professor is interested in Paskahye genetics? Furthermore, please explain to me why a small group like Paskahyes are "important" in genetic studies? I can find more genetic studies conducted by Jews on Armenian populations that tries to make it seem like we "mongrals" or have mixed with Jews or Turks. This is a outrage and this is the kind of shady shit they do that makes me mistrust them and their "struggle".

#5 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Aug 29 2004, 05:09 PM)
Vigil, does your "family friend" also see boogey men and martians?
Did he say what kind of money is being used, Drams or Sheckels?
How are they moving the property to TelAviv?
Or are they using them as new "settlements"?
Now that Jew are not Semites any more, do we have to invent a new term as substitute for A-S?
How about anti-Hittic, or anti-Armenic?


(laugh)

NO, my friend does not "see boogey men and Martians", so, stop insisting that I am "crazy" because the fact that they are directly trying to depopulate the Armenain quarter in the old city should be a signal to you that they have a hidden agenda against Armenians. Furthermore, WHY ARE THEY IN ARMENIA AND WHY ARE THEY MOVING THERE? Seriously, think about it for a minute and please tell me that they honestly do not have a "hidden agenda"? My take on it is that they want to connect themselves to the economic infostructure of Armenia. This is what Zionism is in essence, but again you may think I am "crazy", so, why bother.

By the way, Arpa, do not be suprised if they claim Armenia belongs to them now because they already have genetically connected themselves to Armenians. Don't you find it strange that they are conducting genetic studies sololy on Armenian populations and are trying to discredit our genetic lineage?

#6 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:30 PM

"The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews"

by Kevin Alan Brook

Kurds are the Closest Relatives of Jews

In 2001, a team of Israeli, German, and Indian scientists discovered that the majority of Jews around the world are closely related to the Kurdish people -- more closely than they are to the Semitic-speaking Arabs or any other population that was tested. The researchers sampled a total of 526 Y-chromosomes from 6 populations (Kurdish Jews, Kurdish Muslims, Palestinian Arabs, Sephardic Jews, Ashkenazic Jews, and Bedouin from southern Israel) and added extra data on 1321 persons from 12 populations (including Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Berbers, Portuguese, Spaniards, Arabs, Armenians, and Anatolian Turks). Most of the 95 Kurdish Muslim test subjects came from northern Iraq. Ashkenazic Jews have ancestors who lived in central and eastern Europe, while Sephardic Jews have ancestors from southwestern Europe, northern Africa, and the Middle East. The Kurdish Jews and Sephardic Jews were found to be very close to each other. Both of these Jewish populations differed somewhat from Ashkenazic Jews, who mixed with European peoples during their diaspora. The researchers suggested that the approximately 12.7 percent of Ashkenazic Jews who have the Eu 19 chromosomes -- which are found among between 54 and 60 percent of Eastern European Christians -- descend paternally from eastern Europeans (such as Slavs) or Khazars. But the majority of Ashkenazic Jews, who possess Eu 9 and other chromosomes, descend paternally from Judeans who lived in Israel two thousand years ago. In the article in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University of Israel wrote that this new study revealed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean (Kurds, Anatolian Turks, and Armenians) than to populations in the southern Mediterranean (Arabs and Bedouins).

A previous study by Ariella Oppenheim and her colleagues, published in Human Genetics in December 2000, showed that about 70 percent of Jewish paternal ancestries and about 82 percent of Palestinian Arabs share the same chromosomal pool. The geneticists asserted that this might support the claim that Palestinian Arabs descend in part from Judeans who converted to Islam. With their closer relationship to Jews, the Palestinian Arabs are distinctive from other Arab groups, such as Syrians, Lebanese, Saudis, and Iraqis, who have less of a connection to Jews.

A study by Michael Hammer et al., published in PNAS in June 2000, had identified a genetic connection between Arabs (especially Syrians and Palestinians) and Jews, but had not tested Kurds, so it was less complete.

Many Kurds have the "Jewish" Cohen Modal Haplotype

In the 1990s, a team of scientists (including the geneticist Michael Hammer, the nephrologist Karl Skorecki, and their colleagues in England) discovered the existence of a haplotype which they termed the "Cohen modal haplotype" (abbreviated as CMH). Cohen is the Hebrew word for "priest", and designates descendants of Judean priests from two thousand years ago. Initial research indicated that while only about 3 percent of general Jews have this haplotype, 45 percent of Ashkenazic Cohens have it, while 56 percent of Sephardic Cohens have it. David Goldstein, an evolutionary geneticist at Oxford University, said: "It looks like this chromosomal type was a constituent of the ancestral Hebrew population." Some Jewish rabbis used the Cohen study to argue that all Cohens with the CMH had descended from Aaron, a High Priest who lived about 3500 years ago, as the Torah claimed. Shortly after, it was determined that 53 percent of the Buba clan of the Lemba people of southern Africa have the CMH, compared to 9 percent of non-Buba Lembas. The Lembas claim descent from ancient Israelites, and they follow certain Jewish practices such as circumcision and refraining from eating pork, and for many geneticists and historians the genetic evidence seemed to verify their claim.

However, it soon became apparent that the CMH is not specific to Jews or descendants of Jews. In a 1998 article in Science News, Dr. Skorecki indicated (in an interview) that some non-Jews also possess the Cohen markers, and that the markers are therefore not "unique or special". The CMH is very common among Iraqi Kurds, according to a 1999 study by C. Brinkmann et al. And in her 2001 article, Oppenheim wrote: "The dominant haplotype of the Muslim Kurds (haplotype 114) was only one microsatellite-mutation step apart from the CMH..." (Oppenheim 2001, page 1100). Furthermore, the CMH is also found among some Armenians, according to Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan (Head of the Institute of Man in Yerevan, Armenia), who has studied genetics for many years. Dr. Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin wrote: "The suggestion that the 'Cohen modal haplotype' is a signature haplotype for the ancient Hebrew population is also not supported by data from other populations." (Zoossmann-Diskin 2000, page 156).

In short, the CMH is a genetic marker from the northern Middle East which is not unique to Jews. However, its existence among many Kurds and Armenians, as well as some Italians and Hungarians, would seem to support the overall contention that Kurds and Armenians are the close relatives of modern Jews and that the majority of today's Jews have paternal ancestry from the northeastern Mediterranean region.

The Jewish Kingdom of Adiabene in Ancient Kurdistan

In ancient times, the royal house of Adiabene and some of the common people of Adiabene converted to Judaism. The capital city of Adiabene was Arbela (known today by Arabs as Irbil and by Kurds as Hawler). King Izates became closely attached to his new faith, and sent his sons to study Hebrew and Jewish customs in Jerusalem. His successor to the throne was his brother Monobazos II, who also adopted Judaism. In her 2001 study, Oppenheim references the kingdom of Adiabene, but suggests that while Adiabene's conversion to Judaism "resulted in the assimilation of non-Jews into the community... This recorded conversion does not appear to have had a considerable effect on the Y chromosome pool of the Kurdish Jews." (Oppenheim 2001, page 1103). Some of the Jewish Adiabenians may have eventually converted to Christianity.

Conclusions

Research has just begun into the ancient ties between Kurds and Jews. It would be interesting to see if the various Jewish groups have as strong a family tie to Kurds in the maternal lineages as they do in the paternal lineages. Preliminary studies indicate that Jewish populations in eastern Europe and Yemen have maternal origins that contain much more non-Israelite ancestry than their paternal origins. Despite this admixture with other groups, the Jewish Judean people ultimately began their existence in an area within or nearby Kurdistan, prior to migrating southwest to Israel. This exciting research showing that Kurds and Jews may have shared common fathers several millennia ago should, hopefully, encourage both Kurds and Jews to explore each others' cultures and to maintain the friendship that Kurds and Jews enjoyed in northern Iraq in recent times (as chronicled in Michael Rubin's recent article "The Other Iraq"). As Rubin indicates, the Kurdish leader Mullah Mustafa Barzani once visited Israel and met with Israeli government officials. Rubin refers to the Iraqi Kurds' "special affinity for Israel" and writes that "In the safe haven of Iraqi Kurdistan, the Jews and Israel are remembered fondly, if increasingly vaguely." Let us hope that this relationship can be renewed and strengthened.

Bibliography:

Brinkmann, C., et al. "Human Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in a Kurdish population sample." International Journal of Legal Medicine 112 (1999): 181-183.

Brook, Kevin A. The Jews of Khazaria. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1999.

Hammer, Michael F., et al. "Y Chromosomes of Jewish Priests." Nature 385 (January 2, 1997): 32.

Hammer, Michael F., et al. "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA (PNAS) 97:12 (June 6, 2000): 6769-6774.

Oppenheim, Ariella, et al. "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews." Human Genetics 107(6) (December 2000): 630-641.

Oppenheim, Ariella, et al. "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East." The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112.

Rubin, Michael. "The Other Iraq." Jerusalem Report (December 31, 2001).

Siegel, Judy. "Genetic evidence links Jews to their ancient tribe." Jerusalem Post (November 20, 2001).

Thomas, Mark G., et al. "Y Chromosomes Traveling South: the Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba -- the 'Black Jews of Southern Africa'." American Journal of Human Genetics 66:2 (February 2000): 674-686.

Traubman, Tamara. "Study finds close genetic connection between Jews, Kurds." Ha'aretz (November 21, 2001).

Travis, J. "The Priests' Chromosome? DNA analysis supports the biblical story of the Jewish priesthood." Science News 154:14 (October 3, 1998): 218.

Zoossmann-Diskin, Avshalom. "Are today's Jewish priests descended from the old ones?" HOMO: Journal of Comparative Human Biology 51:2-3 (2000): 156-162.

#7 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:31 PM

The New York Times
August 22, 1997

Gene From Mideast Ancestor May Link 4 Disparate Peoples

By NICHOLAS WADE

Several thousand years ago, somewhere in the Middle East, there lived a person who bequeathed a particular gene to many present-day descendants. But these millions of now distant relatives could not convincingly be called one big happy family. They include Jews, Arabs, Turks and Armenians.

The gene, a variant of a gene that controls fever, has come to light because it causes an unusual disease called familial Mediterranean fever in individuals who inherit a copy from both parents. The gene's presence among a surprising group of populations hints at the rich archeology that lies buried in the human genome, once geneticists and historians have learned how to interpret it.

Two rival teams of scientists in France and the United States have been racing to isolate the gene for a year. The race finished on Friday, with the American team announcing its finding in the journal Cell, the French team in Nature Genetics.

The American team has named the gene pyrin, from the Greek word for fire, after its role in fever; the French team calls it marenostrin after the Latin "Our Sea," a Roman phrase for the Mediterranean. The race could be considered a dead heat, although the American team has recovered the whole gene, the French team just a major portion.

People who inherit a single variant copy of the fever gene from one parent and a normal copy from the other parent have no sign of the disease. They are so numerous, constituting up to 20 percent of certain Jewish and Armenian populations, that carrying one copy is assumed to confer some significant benefit, like a greater resistance to disease.

In individuals with two copies, however, the immune system goes into overdrive at inappropriate moments, causing bouts of severe fever. The scientists who have analyzed the fever gene and its variants say they now understand why.

The normal gene specifies a protein that from its designmotifs looks as if it is meant to slip into the nucleus of the cell and switch genes on or off. Since the gene is active only in a special class of white blood cells, its usual duty seems to be to control the cells' activity and rein them in when the threat of infection has passed. The white blood cells defend against infections and often cause fever in doing so.

The new findings, in portraying the exact genetic anatomy of the normal gene and its variant forms, give a strong clue as to why the variant versions have the effects they do. The variant forms have mutations, or changes of a single DNA letter, in the region of the gene assigned to the switching function. Presumably the mutations make the gene's protein inefficient in its duty of restraining the white blood cells.

The historical significance of the finding lies in the genetic relationship it implies between populations that have been separate for many hundreds of years. For example, the variant form of the gene found in North African Jews, Iraqi Jews and Armenians is the same, carrying both the same mutation and a pattern of 11 other genetic changes, all harmless.

Although single genetic changes can arise independently, the presence of so many together in the same combination points strongly to a "founder" or single ancestor as the original source of the variant gene.

A second variant form of the gene, according to the American team, is shared by Iraqi Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, the Moslem Druze sect and Armenians. The two variants are similar and probably derive from the same founder.

The Americans write that the mutations are "very old" and that they suggest "common origins for several Middle Eastern populations."

Dr. Daniel Kastner, a member of the team, said the original possessor of the variant gene probably lived several thousand years ago and certainly less than 40,000 years ago, according to a formula that relates the average length of a shared genetic segment to the number of generations that have passed. Kastner said the founder's gene may have spread through a population in the Middle East that existed before Jews, Armenians and Arabs became distinct peoples.

He also noted that the variant fever gene established a common genetic lineage between Ashkenazi Jews and Iraqi Jews, even though the two communities have been separated since the Babylonian Captivity that began in 597 B.C. Many Jews from the ancient community in Iraq now live in Israel.

The French team has detected the main variant in Jews and Arabs from North Africa and in Turks and Armenians. Dr. Jean Weissenbach of the gene laboratory Genethon, a member of the French team, said that the variant gene was ancient but that an exact date of it origin could not be calculated.

Experts in Middle Eastern history and linguistics said they knew of no historical event to link the four populations in which the variant fever gene has been found, although three - Arabs, Jews and Armenians - are related geographically, having originated in the Middle East. The ancestral Armenian homeland is around Lake Van in Turkey. The Seljuk Turks invaded from Central Asia in the 11th century, and they absorbed many of the local inhabitants.

Familial Mediterranean fever is rare in the United States. Patients often endure years of misdiagnoses. Once the disease is recognized, an effective drug, colchicine, is available. Now that the DNA sequence of the variant gene is known, an accurate test can be made.

The American-led team includes scientists from laboratories in Israel and Australia. The French team is from Genethon in Evry and two other laboratories in France.

#8 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:32 PM

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East

Almut Nebel,1 Dvora Filon,2 Bernd Brinkmann,4 Partha P. Majumder,5 Marina Faerman,3 and Ariella Oppenheim1

1Department of Hematology, Hebrew UniversityHadassah Medical School, 2Hadassah University Hospital, and 3Laboratory of Biological Anthropology and Ancient DNA, Hebrew UniversityHadassah School of Dental Medicine, Jerusalem; 4Institut für Rechtsmedizin, Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität, Münster, Germany; and 5Anthropology and Human Genetics Unit, Indian Statistical Institute, Calcutta

Received June 18, 2001; accepted for publication August 27, 2001; electronically published September 25, 2001.

A sample of 526 Y chromosomes representing six Middle Eastern populations (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Kurdish Jews from Israel; Muslim Kurds; Muslim Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area; and Bedouin from the Negev) was analyzed for 13 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors. The two haplogroups Eu 9 and Eu 10 constitute a major part of the Y chromosome pool in the analyzed sample. Our data suggest that Eu 9 originated in the northern part, and Eu 10 in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent. Genetic dating yielded estimates of the expansion of both haplogroups that cover the Neolithic period in the region. Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin differed from the other Middle Eastern populations studied here, mainly in specific high-frequency Eu 10 haplotypes not found in the non-Arab groups. These chromosomes might have been introduced through migrations from the Arabian Peninsula during the last two millennia. The present study contributes to the elucidation of the complex demographic history that shaped the present-day genetic landscape in the region.

#9 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:34 PM

Why the "Khazar Theory" is Absurd
by R. Belser

There is a strain of crankishness running through Revisionist writing these days. While it is true that nearly all of it is to be found in what I would term the work of "secondary" writers -- i.e., those not conducting research of primary sources, or conducting research which can be described as scientific, it is turning up often and persistently enough to be troublesome. I am referring to the so-called "Khazar Theory," which alleges that the overwhelming majority of those people whom we today call "Jews" are not the same as the "biblical" Jews, but are instead the descendants of a Turkic-Mongol people known as the Khazars, who were "converted" to Judaism in the 8th century A.D. The Ashkenazic Jews, the theory claims, are the products of these Khazars and received little if any genetic legacy from the biblical Jews.

This "Khazar theory" is ridiculous for the following reasons:

1. History:

For at least two centuries before Christ (actually, much longer in some places), Jews comprised a sizable alien community within many large urban centers along the Mediterranean littoral: Alexandria, Rome, Athens, Antioch, etc. -- anywhere where commerce and allied activities thrived. After the destruction of the Second Temple ca. 70 AD, it is true that there was a large dispersal of many Jews to these centers and others all over Europe. But the Jews had encysted themselves into their various host peoples long before the advent of Christianity --- which accelerated but did not instigate that movement. Therefore, even if every last Khazar became a "covert" and remained converted (a very doubtful proposition, as we will see!), what percentage of the total world population of Jews could they and their descendants really be -- given the fact that the great bulk of Jews had already dispersed throughout Europe well before the meeting of Jew and Khazar (8th century AD)??

2. Genetic:

As the following excerpt mentions, the DNA of Ashkenazic Jews -- those targeted by the K-theory -- still reflects their Middle Eastern origin, even though there was certainly some considerable intermarriage in the European Jews, well before the putative date of the Khazar "conversion":

----------------------------------------------------
Is Jewish a RACE?
Author Jon Entine
http://www.upi.com/v...15-013945-7702r

Q: Were there times when Jews married gentiles, but the children tended to remain within the faith?

A: Under the Roman Empire, the Jewish community in Italy was quite sizable for a time, with lots of flow in and out. During the early Christian period in the Roman Empire, Jewish males who had left the Mideast often took on Gentile wives. Their offspring probably became the core of Ashkenazi Jewry.

However, some time around the fall of Rome is when the taboos on intermarriage (imposed by both Jews and Gentiles) became stringent. The real end to Ashkenazi Jewish out-marrying did not come until the Middle Ages as the economic and social position of Jews worsened considerably.

This historical trend is reflected in the genetic data, which suggests that the genetic core of modern Ashkenazi Jewry was not formed until this period. The core consisted mostly of Jewish men with Middle Eastern roots marrying a high percentage of local Gentile women, then forming Jewish communities.

Q: Is that when the rule switched and membership in the Jewish community became no longer a function of one's father being a Jew, but of one's mother, which tended to cut down on outmarriage?

"Kevin MacDonald confirms that the Jews have been long-standing and committed practitioners of racial purity through eugenics, and that they have practiced discrimination against poorer and less fit Jews "as a function of genetic distance," particularly in times of economic and demographic crisis. Intriguingly, he also suggests that Jewish eugenic practices have extended to Jews "stealing" selected genes from Gentiles. These genes are then submerged into the Jewish gene pool, so strengthening the Jewish genetic stock."

"Even if history showed a greater infusion of Aryan blood than the above estimate would allow, [Among the calculations he makes, he estimates the total number of Jews of "doubtful" purity, introduced into the Jewish fold by such proselyte communities as the Chazars of south Russia, the Arabs of Yemen, the Daggatouns of the Sahara, and the Beni-Israel of Bombay, as only 1 per cent of Israel. Ibid., pp. 42-43.] the effect of this on Jewish characteristics would tend to be minimized by certain anthropological principles which have been completely overlooked by M. Renan and followers." [[Journ. Anthropological Inst., Vol. XV (1886), p. 44.]

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I have seen studies which measure the "genetic distance" of various groups from one another; the group which has the closest "genetic distance" to Jews, is that of Palestinian Arabs. Now, you'll note that most Jews who have what we call "Semitic looks" appear slightly, even recognizably different from Arabs (although the similarity is also plain). John R. Baker, in his book Race (Oxford University Press, 1972) points out that Jews are actually a "hybrid" race, a mixture of the Orientalid (Arabs, etc.) and the Armenid (Armenians, etc.) The Jews were intimately involved with the Babylonians -- were, in fact, a captive population, (probably the antecedents of the Armenian group) a half-millennium before Christ.

In any event, the phenotype of Jews is most certainly NOT Turkic-Mongol or -- as those advocating this theory allege - is it "Asiatic," a word whose meaning, for them, seems to teeter between the vague "Fu-Manchu" Yellow-Menace-imagery of the "sinister Oriental," etc., and that of the "cruel Mongol" or Turk.

There is also the nature of the Khazar people and their society to consider; this was a warrior people whose culture centered around horsemanship, herding and war. Such a people have a very profound warrior ethos. The Khazars were a Turkic-Mongol people -- much like the fierce horsemen of the later Mongol leader, Ghengis Khan (ca 1200 AD). Even if their chief and his nobles converted and made conversion for the entire tribe compulsory, do you really suppose that Talmudic Judaism would "take" in such a people? The fact that the Khazars are known to have persisted in their customary way of life -- a way of life about as far removed from Talmudic Judaism as it is possible to go -- well AFTER the supposed conversion (mention is made of them as forming an important part of the elite imperial guard in the Byzantine Empire as late as 1000 AD -- and with no one commenting about them as following Judaism -- a phenomenon which would certainly have excited some notice and record, since there are ample commentaries and sources from that period.

3. The Old Testament itself.

Even a cursory reading of the Old Testament -- or the reading of even a narrative summary of it -- reveals a behavioral consistency -- right down to strategies and tactics for suborning the leadership and subverting the natives of their host nations, as well as their (truly) genocidal kill-everything-that-moves practices against their enemies -- between the people called Jews then and those called Jews today. This shows clearly that the Talmud is descriptive as well as prescriptive; that is, that it is no later "perversion" of the basic Jewish attitude toward the world, but rather wholly consistent with the Jewish world-view and behavior, from the very beginning of their own recorded history. Judaism has been and is, in fact -- as Kevin MacDonald has magisterially proven -- a tool for racial survival, and its particularly nasty character reflects the particular temperment and attributes and tendencies of the people who created it.

4. Cui bono?

What purpose might the K-theory actually serve? Remember, this theory originates with Jews themselves... Well, for one thing, it is part and parcel of the usual Jews-set-up-Jews-knock-down/Jews-on-all-sides-of-an-issue mode of behavior. It certainly throws a fair amount of confusion into the goyim ranks, doesn't it?

The appeal of the theory to die-hard Christians is easy enough to understand; it permits them to eat their metaphysical cake and have it, too: i.e., they can oppose the Jews -- since the Jews of the last 1300 years are supposedly not the "real" Jews -- while keeping Jesus (who was a Jew but not a "Khazar," etc....) since the Biblical Jews -- of whom Christ was a member -- remain sacrosanct. Another aspect of the K-theory which many doubtless find attractive, is that is relegates the Jews to a "non-White" category. Of course, it should be pointed out here that the Jews are certainly "white," if by "white" we mean "Caucasian"...The Jews are not, however, Aryan (or Indo-European). Nor are the Arabs, Armenians, Turks and many other taxons who abide under the broad Caucasian umbrella.

The real harm that this K-theory does, in my opinion: too many people on our side, writing on the Jewish issue, have fallen into the habit of adopting a sort of I-know-a-big-important-fact-most-people-don't-know tone and outright referring to Jews as "Khazars"... This totally ignores the fact that the Khazar theory is simply that -- a theory (and one which has the bulk of evidence soundly against it!). People who claim unproven allegations to be facts, and who proceed as if they were facts, tend to lose any credibility a neutral reader might have been willing to grant them. In fact, such people often inadvertently class themselves with outright cranks, such as those in the Christian Identity camp, whose take on such questions would be amusing if it weren't tarring us by association. The point here is that even if one personally finds the K-theory feasible, it is not a good idea to treat it in polemical writing as if it were proven fact -- it is far (very far) from that.

#10 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:40 PM

I can find more articles that suggest the notion that Jews and Armenians are "linked". Anyways, all I am saying is that I find it strange they are "Focusing" on Armenians. The fact that they spent a couple of years researching the "jewish cemetary" and now are claiming that the Armenian Government needs to give their "midevil land" back is just strange.

#11 Armen

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:40 PM

Vigil, this is nothing new. But noone treats it serious. It is a fact that there were Jews living in Armenia over centureis and they assimilated and mixed with Armenian. And it's evident that if you do a genetic study you will find some Jewish genes. So what? As to who buys the most real estate in Armenia at present...For the last three years Iranian Armenians have very active.

#12 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:44 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 29 2004, 05:40 PM)
Vigil, this is nothing new. But noone treats it serious. It is a fact that there were Jews living in Armenia over centureis and they assimilated and mixed with Armenian. And it's evident that if you do a genetic study you will find some Jewish genes. So what? As to who buys the most real estate in Armenia at present...For the last three years Iranian Armenians have very active.


Armen, I know it is not a new idea, but I just don't want to branded a "jew" or a "turk" or anything close to one. What makes me more upset is that they do not focus on different populations of Jews or Turks, but rather, the ones that have had direct connect with Armenians. They make it seem like Armenains and Jews are related, which is very far from the truth. Fruthermore, like my friend said they are forcing us into the "Jewish Camp". This needs to stop or else we may find ourselves reduced to a bunch of "lost tribes". Lastly, they are now claiming that the Armenains from Van region were "Jewish". Sorry, but A LINE NEEDS TO BE DRAWN.

Yeah, I have heard about Paskahyes buying land in Armenia, which is a great thing, but I have also heard report of Jewish infestation.

Edited by Vigil, 29 August 2004 - 05:46 PM.


#13 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:47 PM

It has gotten to a point where some "white nationals" thought Armenians were Jews. Thank god for the Armenian front on Stormfront or else we would have been grouped with the very same people that are against us on the geopolitical front.

Edited by Vigil, 29 August 2004 - 05:55 PM.


#14 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:57 PM

Also, I find it strange that these are the same "Jews" that believe the hogwash of how "race is a socially constructed". Now, really think about this for a second, if indeed "race is socially constructed" and is "unimportant" why are Jews desperately trying to imply that they are a racially homogenized people?

If indeed Armenians buy the "unimportance" of race then we truly will become lambs to the slaughter.

Edited by Vigil, 29 August 2004 - 05:58 PM.


#15 Armen

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 06:06 PM

Vigil, nationality is not about blood nowadays. Even if someone proves that we Armenians have 100% Turk blood, we will continue identify ourselvs as Armenians. These studies have been there for a decade or more. Never saw them chnaing someone's mind.

#16 Vigil

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 06:55 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 29 2004, 06:06 PM)
Vigil, nationality is not about blood nowadays. Even if someone proves that we Armenians have 100% Turk blood, we will continue identify ourselvs as Armenians. These studies have been there for a decade or more. Never saw them chnaing someone's mind.


Armen, I don't buy that for a second, anyways, the debate is not about the pros and cons of a homonginized gene pool, rather, I am just exposing the Jewish double standard. IN America they promote ideas of micegination, while at the same time they conduct studies on their genetics in a futile effort to prove they are racially pure.

Now, I just find this strange and disgusting how Armenians are fighting this with their hands down. It is like they like to be labeled as "MUDs" or "Mongrals" when in fact they are not even close to this status. For instance Seaphan (Sorry, Seaphan, I am not trying to pick on you, but you are a good example) has a hard time understand that this forum is called "Hyeforum" not "Otarforum" and when asked why he wants more otars here he gives answers that make it seem like Armenians have no unique racial look to themselves. He makes it seem like Armenians are racially diverse when in fact we are pretty racially "pure". This is the kind of flat out stupid things Armenians do that makes me question our survival as a people.

Lastly, if you look at the gene pool of Europeans you will find that they have as much Mongoloid blood as any Armenian. Furthermore, there are genetic studies that show that most Greeks have Negroid blood, but does that mean anything in terms of cultural relation? No, If you look far back enough we all moved out of Africa, so, trying to corealate our blood with that of Jews of that region means nothing. It would be a significant find if Armenians had some genetic relations with Turks and Jews of isolated regions, but related our blood to that of Turks and Jews of that region mean nothing. Furthermore, I have read articles that suggest our genetic transfer was "one way" in that you find Jews and Turks that have Armenian features, but you will never find Armenian with Jewish or Turkish features and no, the "hooked nose" is not only prevalent in Armenians. The hooked nose is prevalent in European populations as much as it is prevalent in the Armenian.

I understand that there is "one human race", but that does not mean we should "mix" because once we do mix we lose any difference that makes each of us unique and culture can not "progress" if it is not "different". Just look at American culture. They have no culture other then Pop-Culture. Every year or so there is a "new American flavor". In a way globalization is a silent genocide that kills culture, but again why bother.

In closing, I do not want to make this into a "my dick is bigger than yours" type of debate. I just want to make sure "flower power" Armenians understand that there are certain groups that are using our history to further their own interests. What we have as a people they envy and these articles just proves my point even more.

#17 Teutonic Knight

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 07:05 PM

Those so called "studies" are conducted by jews, you expect them to be factual and reasonable?
It's all bullshit. Some jews might have Armenian genes as a result of ancient Armenian incursions into the Middle East. Likewise they have an equal amount of Greek and Roman genes as well as pretty much genes from everyone else since they are a mongrel group of people, not a religion or a race. They come in all shapes and colors. I wouldn't worry about them moving to Armenia. They usually move to places where there are lots of dumb people. Hence the total number of jews in Armenia now isn't more than 500.

#18 Arshak1946

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 08:42 AM

Threat To National Security.

Dear Banned,

In my opionion if this from Isreal , watch out this type of jews are Zionist , Sabatay Levy , Mason etc ect, this kind of Jews that committed Armenian Genocide 1915 . All these head of the turkish state were converted to islam, they hated us beginning of the times. We , Armenian people , Armenian State , if you notice Zionist Isreal is sold missiles to azeribayjan.

Best Regards to all.






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