56 replies to this topic

[Zartonk]

My preference is too keep the "other" strains as far away as possible.

With a world as this one now, your's is noble one in my book.
A culture cannot just be left to be overran.

Edited by Zartonk, 29 July 2005 - 07:47 PM.

[kumkap]

Did the British expand in North America in the name of Christianity? I don't think so. They expanded to take advantage of the land and its' inhabitants. Christian colonies even fought against each other and it was not always Catholic vs. Protestant.

christianity was no less tied up with the concept of manifest destiny than islam was with arab expansionism (in the 7th c.) and especially ottoman conquest. it's ridiculous to think that only religion motivated these conquests and not land and expansion of the tax base. as i mentioned before islam did not create by itself the gazi mentality of turks that drove their conquests of europe, they were already violent and murderous conquerors before encountering islam.

btw i do not think we should hold the actions of cultures and religions more than 10 centuries ago up to the ethical standards we have today. it was a totally different world back then. i do think that these people should be held up to those ethical standards though:

Bible and Sword: US Christian Zionists Discover Israel

Part 3 in a series of 5 articles on Christian Zionism:  Part 1  - Part 2 - Part 3 - Part 4 - Part 5

Donald Wagner

10/10/03: (Daily Star) The first lobbying effort on behalf of a Jewish state in Palestine was not organized or initiated by Jews. It occurred in 1891, when a popular fundamentalist Christian writer and lay-preacher, William E. Blackstone, organized a national campaign to appeal to the then-president of the United States, Benjamin Harrison, to support the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Blackstone gained notoriety through his 1882 national bestseller Jesus is Coming, his summary of end-of-time premillennial doctrines. He saw a need to politically support the Jewish people after hearing horrifying stories of the pogroms in Russia. Blackstone appealed to multimillionaire friends such as oil magnate John D. Rockefeller, publisher Charles B. Scribner and industrialist JP Morgan to finance advertisements and a petition campaign that were carried in major newspapers from Boston to the Mississippi. Aside from wealthy financiers, Blackstone also received support from most members of the US Senate and House of Representatives and the chief justice of the Supreme Court. Despite powerful backing, his appeal went nowhere.

There is little record of significant political backing for the Zionist cause after Blackstone’s initiative, as fundamentalists began to withdraw from political activity following the Scopes trial and battles over evolution. However, after a 50-year hiatus, gradual change began occurring after World War II. Two post-war developments galvanized conservative Christians ­ the establishment of Israel in 1948 and the Cold War. A previously small and marginalized school of Biblical interpretation called “premillennialism” began to assert itself within the larger evangelical Protestant community. Israel and the Cold War were usually linked by premillennial preachers and authors who interpreted them using selected prophecy texts. According to their prophetic timetable, as the end of history approached an evil global empire would emerge under the leadership of a mysterious world leader called the “Antichrist” and attack Israel, leading to the climactic Battle of Armageddon. Israel was understood by conservative Christians to be at the center of these Biblical events, and thus commanded unconditional financial and spiritual support.

When Israel captured Jerusalem and the West Bank (not to mention Gaza, Sinai and the Golan Heights) in the June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, conservative Christians sensed that history had entered the latter days. L. Nelson Bell, the father-in-law of evangelist Billy Graham and editor of the influential journal Christianity Today, wrote in July 1967: “That for the first time in more than 2,000 years Jerusalem is now in the hands of the Jews gives the students of the Bible a thrill and a renewed faith in the accuracy and validity of the Bible.”

Premillennialism gained popularity through a flurry of books and the activities of radio evangelists and television preachers. For example, Hal Lindsay’s The Late, Great Planet Earth, which became one of the best selling books in history. Lindsay’s message popularized the premillennialist narrative for a generation of Americans, placing Israel at its historical center. Lindsay also developed a consulting business that included several members of the US Congress, the CIA, Israeli generals, the Pentagon and the then-governor of California, Ronald Reagan.

With the American bicentennial in 1976, several trends converged in America’s religious and political landscape, all pointing toward increased US support for Israel and a higher political profile for the religious right. First, fundamentalist and evangelical churches became the fastest growing sector of American Christianity, as mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic branches saw a decline in their members, budgets and missions.

Second, Jimmy Carter, an evangelical from the “Bible Belt,” was elected president of the United States, giving increased legitimacy to evangelicals as Time magazine confirmed when it named 1976 “the year of the evangelical.”

Third, following the 1967 war, Israel gained an increased share of US foreign and military budgets, becoming the “western pillar” of the US strategic alliance against a Soviet incursion into the Middle East, particularly after the revolution in Iran took the country out of the US orbit. It is during this period that AIPAC and other pro-Israel organizations started shaping US foreign policy.

Fourth, the Roman Catholic Church and mainstream Protestant denominations began to develop a more balanced approach to the Middle East, bringing them closer to the international consensus on the Palestine question. Pro-Israel organizations interpreted this shift as being anti-Israeli and, in turn, began to court conservative Christians. Marc Tannenbaum of the American Jewish Committee captured this sentiment well when he told the Washington Post: “The evangelical community is the largest and fastest-growing bloc of pro-Jewish sentiment in this country.”

The fifth development was the victory of Menachem Begin and the right-wing Likud coalition in the Israeli election of 1977. Begin’s Revisionist Zionist ideology that mandated establishing an “iron wall” of Israeli domination, and his policy of annexing Arab land, accelerating construction of Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories and militarizing the conflict with the Arab world, all found ready support within the American Christian right. Likud’s tactic of employing Biblical names for the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Biblical arguments to defend its policies (“God gave us this land”) found resonance with fundamentalist Christians.

A surprising development, and arguably the lynchpin in forging the fundamentalist Christian-Zionist alliance, occurred in March 1977, when Carter inserted the clause “Palestinians deserve a right to their homeland” into a policy address. Immediately, the pro-Israel lobby and the Christian right responded with full-page ads in major US newspapers. Their text stated: “The time has come for evangelical Christians to affirm their belief in biblical prophecy and Israel’s divine right to the land.” The text concluded with a line that took direct aim at Carter’s statement: “We affirm as evangelicals our belief in the promised land to the Jewish people … We would view with grave concern any effort to carve out of the Jewish homeland another nation or political entity.”

The advertising campaign was one of the first significant signs of the Likud’s and the pro-Israel lobby’s alliance with the Christian right. It redirected conservative Christian support from Carter, a Democrat, to the Republican right. Jerry Strober, a former employee of the American Jewish Committee, coordinated the campaign and told Newsweek magazine: “The evangelicals are Carter’s constituency and he (had) better listen to them … The real source of strength the Jews have in this country is from the evangelicals.”
By the 1980 elections the political landscape had shifted, both in the Middle East and in the US. The Iranian hostage crisis helped ensure Carter’s defeat against his Republican rival, Ronald Reagan. However, it was not the only factor: An estimated 20 million fundamentalist and evangelical Christians voted for Reagan and against Carter’s brand of evangelical Christianity that failed the test of unconditional support for Israel.

The power of the pro-Israel Republicans became a prominent feature during the Reagan years, with the president leading the way. On at least seven public occasions Reagan expressed belief in a final Battle of Armageddon. During one of his private conversations with AIPAC director Tom Dine, Reagan said: “You know, I turn back to your ancient prophets in the Old Testament and the signs foretelling Armageddon, and I find myself wondering if ­ if we’re the generation that is going to see that come about.” The conversation was leaked to the Jerusalem Post and picked up across the US on the AP wire. This stunning openness displayed by an American president with the chief lobbyist for a foreign government indicated the close cooperation that had developed between the administration and Israel.

A little-known feature of the Reagan White House was the series of seminars organized by the administration and the Christian right with assistance from the pro-Israel lobby. These sessions were designed to firm up support for the Republican Party, and, in turn, encourage AIPAC and Christian Zionist organizations to advance their respective agendas. Participation by the Christian right in gala dinner briefings at the White House reads like a Who’s Who of the movement, including author Hal Lindsay, Jerry Falwell, the head of the Moral Majority, and evangelist Pat Robertson, as well as Tim LeHaye (co-author of the influential Left Behind series) and Moral Majority strategist Ed McAteer. State Department official Robert McFarlane, one of those implicated in the Iran-Contra scandal, led several briefings. Quietly working in the background was another Christian fundamentalist, Marine Colonel Oliver North.

Begin developed a close relationship with leading fundamentalists, such as Falwell, who later received a Learjet from the Israeli government for his personal travel and in 1981 was honored with the Jabotinsky Award in an elaborate ceremony in New York. When Israel bombed Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, Begin made his first telephone call to Falwell, asking him to “explain to the Christian public the reasons for the bombing.” Only later did he call Reagan. Falwell also converted former Senator Jesse Helms from a critic of Israel into one of its staunchest allies in the US Senate, where he chaired the influential Foreign Relations Committee.

Late in the Reagan administration, a number of scandals in the Christian right began to erode its public support. Pat Robertson’s ineffective run for the presidency in 1988 led to a decline in fundamentalist political fortunes. Resilient as ever, the pro-Israel lobby was able to somewhat reassert itself with the election of another Bible-toting Southern Baptist president, Bill Clinton, despite his liberal social agenda. However, Christian Zionist influence did decline after the Reagan presidency, though it would return with renewed vigor after the tragedy of Sept. 11, 2001.

Donald Wagner is professor of religion and Middle Eastern studies at North Park University in Chicago and executive director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies. He wrote this text, the third in a series of five on Christian Zionism, for THE DAILY STAR

these psychotic religious fundamentalists give their full support to ethnic cleansing and apartheid as bad if not worse than that of south africa.

Unlike the treatment of Coptic Christians, treatment of Blacks has improved.

maybe this is because white people realized they had no justification for enslaving another people in their own land other than their megalomaniacal racism, whereas egyptian muslims know very well it was christians from britian and france who teamed up with israel to attack their country in the suez war and a long catalogue of hostile infringements upon their sovereignty starting with napoleon. nobody in the u.s. sees anything wrong with religious profiling, so maybe egypt is just doing what it has to do to prevent another attack on the country by christians.

Massacres of Christians (and vice-versa) was not uncommon, especially in Southern (Palestinian occupied) Lebanon. The hands of Christian leaders and Ariel Sharon weren't clean either...

i don't think there was any worse massacres of civilians during that war than what happened in sabra and shatila.

Kumkap, these soldiers aren't fighting in the name of Christianity. They fight in the name of Bush and oil. It is true that Americans mistreated Iraqis and killed civilians
Many of those deaths happen because of Islamic terrorists.

don't be so sure of that:

The Pentagon Unleashes a Holy Warrior

Religious Bias at Air Force Academy.

You might be able to justify some of those terrorist acts, but one of those terrorist acts was the bombing of Iraqi churches, including an Armenian church or 2. Would you be able to justify that?  Note that those bombings happened before Armenia decided to send military personnel to Iraq.

mosques were bombed in the uk after the london bombings that killed 50 people a few weeks ago. tens of thousands of people have been killed by christians in iraq, so what's the surprise?

Well the Muslims weren't the ones protesting when 9/11 happened. On the other hand, many Americans were protesting against the invasion of Iraq.

really? then what is all this?

[skhara]

kumkamp,

stop defending muslims. I personally have no problem with them as long as they stay in the desert lands and don't bother anyone. That is far away from me and my family.

Both Islam and Judaism are aggressive and violent teachings. Christianity (based on the New Testament) is a perfect faith that creates victims.

And your example of conquests of N America and the attack on Iraq can not be put of Christians. Are American troops Christian soldiers? This 'born again' American branch of Christianity is nothing more than heretical judaism as far as I'm concerned.

The Jihad Genocide of Armenians


To save shell and powder, the gendarmerie commander in charge of this large convoy had gathered 10,000-12,000 Turkish peasants and other villagers, and armed with “hatchets, meat cleavers, saddler’s knives, cudgels, axes, pickaxes, shovels”, the latter attacked and for some 4-5 hours mercilessly butchered the victims while crying “Oh God, Oh God” (Allah, Allah). In a moment of rare candor, this gendarmerie commander confided to the priest-author, whom he did not expect to survive the mass murder, that after each massacre episode, he spread his little prayer rug and performed the namaz, the ritual of worship, centered on prayer, with a great sense of redemption in the service of Almighty God.

[phantom22]

...and those who have suceeded these butchers expect to be welcomed into the EU with open arms, with no contrition.

[gamavor]

...and those who have suceeded these butchers expect to be welcomed into the EU with open arms, with no contrition.

Why not? If Bulgaristan and Romanistan can become members of EU, why not Turkey. Armenian history in Bulgaria and Romania is as much falsified as it is in Turkey. Ethnic Armenian kids in Bulgarian schools are forced to recite poetry like "I'm Bulgarian, I love our green mountains, To be a Bulgarian is an ultimate happiness to me...blah-blah-.... . Likewise Turks have similar 'educational' poetry in their school curriculum.

[phantom22]

Hey Gams,

From the age of four I recited the American Pledge of Allegiance and sang "My Country 'Tis of Thee" and " America the Beautiful." Every nation develops citizen loyalty in this way. We were Catholics, and after I was age 7 Protestants, but we went to Armenian school to learn the language and culture. Plus my grandmother lived with us and instilled the culture in us.

We became hybrids, Americans of Armenian heritage.

The problem with Turkey is that her whole history is a "BIG LIE." Americans never deny annihilating the Natives. Instead they make money showcasing the Native settlements as tourist attractions. Burt Reynolds, Cher, etc. tout their partial Native American heritage while in Turkey the whole country goes into hysterics when it is revealed that Ataturk's adopted daughter was Armenian. Turkey is a nation in collective PSYCHOSIS.

Edited by phantom22, 30 July 2005 - 03:05 PM.

[gamavor]

Hey Gams,

From the age of four I recited the American Pledge of Allegiance and sang "My Country 'Tis of Thee" and " America the Beautiful." Every nation develops citizen loyalty in this way. We were Catholics, and after I was age 7 Protestants, but we went to Armenian school to learn the language and culture. Plus my grandmother lived with us and instilled the culture in us.

We became hybrids, Americans of Armenian heritage.

And at the end of the process you end up being ..... neither American, nor Armenian, but pure Bosnian!

Phantom, everyone lies! Your best friends lie too, but you forgive them because they are 'friends'. I don't care if Turkey covers her head with ashes. We can't resurrect the dead. What we can do, is to assure brighter future for those that are alive and for the generations to come. To do this from our Armenian perspective is to make Armenia strong and as much as possible independent state with unfettered access to the Sea according to Sevres treaty, so that Armenia can finally get out from the Russian bear hug and to become really a prosperous country and a bridge of different cultures in the region.

[phantom22]

OK Mr. Attorney what is the process you propose toward that end?


....and from where do you pull "Bosnian" out of your hat?

Edited by phantom22, 30 July 2005 - 03:27 PM.

[gamavor]

OK Mr. Attorney what is the process you propose toward that end?

That's a promising beginning!

[kumkap]

kumkamp,

stop defending muslims.  I personally have no problem with them as long as they stay in the desert lands and don't bother anyone.  That is far away from me and my family.

i defend the ones that should be defended and call for prosecution of the real villains among the muslims. unfortunately the judeo-christian leaders of the world brutalize muslims in those societies that have allowed eastern christianity to survive until today, but train the airforce of and supply military hardware to the muslim country that did the most to destroy eastern christianity in history. they brandish christianity in their campaigns of conquest, giving christianity a bad name, and christians living in those societies have to suffer for it.

And your example of conquests of N America and the attack on Iraq can not be put of Christians.  Are American troops Christian soldiers?  This 'born again' American branch of Christianity is nothing more than heretical judaism as far as I'm concerned.

they most certainly are christian soldiers. maybe you didn't follow the links i provided. aside from that, maybe you and i don't think these people are real christians and are more like a cult, but they think of us orthdox as being false christians. so who's right?:

The Pentagon Unleashes a Holy Warrior
Religious Bias at Air Force Academy

DELGADO: ...They opened fire on the prisoners with the machine guns. They shot twelve and killed three. I know because I talked to the guy who did the killing. He showed me these grisly photographs, and he bragged about the results. "Oh," he said, "I shot this guy in the face. See, his head is split open." He talked like the Terminator. "I shot this guy in the groin, he took three days to bleed to death." I was shocked. This was the nicest guy you would ever want to meet. He was a family man, a really courteous guy, a devout Christian. I was stunned and said to him: "You shot an unarmed man behind barbed wire for throwing a stone." He said, "Well, I knelt down. I said a prayer, stood up and gunned them all down." There was a complete disconnect between what he had done and his own morality.

When US Foreign Policy Meets Biblical Prophecy

Bush, the Neocons and Evangelical Christian Fiction

And there is much more where this came from.

maybe you are right that the real motivations behind the war have not to do spreading christianity but instead with things like the defense industry, zionism, petroleum, etc. but which demographic group is most responsible for putting bush in power? who is actually serving in his army and doing his dirty work? evangelical christians. they don't vote for bush because they want the bush family's corporate investments to become more profitable. they vote for him out of a manichean view of the world, vengeance, biblical prophecy involving israel, the end times, messianism, and in general cultural/religious chauvinism. read those links i provided. there would be no iraq war and zionism would be dead in the water if it wasn't for evangelical christians.

Edited by kumkap, 30 July 2005 - 03:44 PM.

[phantom22]

OK Gams,

Now where do we go from here? What kind of country do you want to see in Armenia?

I have been to Greece, Israel and Palestine, as well as western European countries. I have also been to countries in East Asia.

I have been to Armenia also.

You did not answer my question. What do you propose?

[Zartonk]

Both Islam and Judaism are aggressive and violent teachings. Christianity (based on the New Testament) is a perfect faith that creates victims.

Well said.


Im all for equal human rights, but as someone once put it regarding Islam's influence and violence, the ideological learnings of the average muslim makes him like "a swimmer who can't find water ."

As a people, if we continue viewing our situation so lightly , we will end up conforming the impression that we're the definitive, here-to-be-abused victim.

The "EU's butchers" can not just continue looking on at progress.

Edited by Zartonk, 30 July 2005 - 05:02 PM.

[phantom22]

Zartonk,

You forget that the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament are rarely followed by Christian leaders. There is a disjunct between these teachings and implementation. Please stop fooling yourself and trying to fool others.

[Zartonk]

You forget that the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament are rarely followed by Christian leaders.

They never are. Someone said otherwise?

There is a disjunct between these teachings and implementation.

Yes. "Practice" is the part there to be ignored, "Implication" is that instrument you REALLY should give a pez about. That is a consistent in every relgion (CHRISTIANITY INCLUDED), just the pick is your call.

There is a disjunct between these teachings and implementation. Please stop fooling yourself and trying to fool others.

I doubt your on my ball here. Am I a little preachey? Or did you pick up screams of "Bible-Bible" somewhere in my thread? Was I too CBN?

If really so, I should rethink my composition seriousley.

My word ISN'T a defence of Christianity as the institution, but the EFFECT the philosophies of pure, Pimitive Christianity (just for you, that's teaching kind)have had on the attitude of the Armenian collective conciousness for the last 1704 years.
You see, we've been known far tendencies of being a bit too nice at times where we shouldn't have.(Not to directly blame Jesus, off coarse.
Again: It isn't religion here.)



So, please, before you go on calling someone self-decieving and corruptive, try to actually get what they're saying. Just get it correct.

Shnorhakalem.

Edited by Zartonk, 30 July 2005 - 05:58 PM.

[phantom22]

Are you saying that the reason the Conquering Turks reached Vienna and Northern Spain is that Christianity weakens the resolve against invaders?

Ditto for Atilla the Hun?

[skhara]

maybe you are right that the real motivations behind the war have not to do spreading christianity but instead with things like the defense industry, zionism, petroleum, etc.  but which demographic group is most responsible for putting bush in power?  who is actually serving in his army and doing his dirty work?  evangelical christians.  they don't vote for bush because they want the bush family's corporate investments to become more profitable.  they vote for him out of a manichean view of the world, vengeance, biblical prophecy involving israel, the end times, messianism, and in general cultural/religious chauvinism.  read those links i provided.  there would be no iraq war and zionism would be dead in the water if it wasn't for evangelical christians.

We are in agreement then. They are not Christians but Jews. And I'm well aware of the evangelicals being ardent supporters of the Iraq war. They also scream even louder then Jews themselves about the 'choseness'. As far as I'm concerned, the Eastern Christian teachings today is the only true christianity. And its no wonder there exists such a collision between the Jews and Orthodox Christians.

Take a look at this print by an Orthodox Russian publication.

http://www.ncsj.org/...rav_trans.shtml

Edited by skhara, 30 July 2005 - 06:55 PM.

[Zartonk]

Are you saying that the reason the Conquering Turks reached Vienna and Northern Spain is that Christianity weakens the resolve against invaders?

Ditto for Atilla the Hun?

Abolutley not. It doesn't involve other Christian societies, or anyone else for that matter

Differnt people treat different imports their own way.

Edited by Zartonk, 01 August 2005 - 11:11 AM.