87 replies to this topic

[Takoush]

I can't believe I'm reading this. First Nairi, now you? This has nothing to do with shame, but everything to do with respecting another person next to you, be it your long-time lover or a new acquaintance. Why do we have to let go of ourselves? Why not try to be the best we can be in the presence of those we love?

Nairi and Edward, do you think it's ok to belch and fart in front of your parents and kids as well? Surely, you reason that you feel very comfortable and close to them as well?

I totally agree with you anoushik jan. I guess you are a classy lady like I really thought you are and because you are!!! It sure sounds like it my dear. By going away to let go of yourself in my books, above all you respect yourself. That's the way I am brought up by my family and that is also the way I am.

On the other hand my object of affection may choose to let go of himself in front of me and I will not mind or object; but personally, I choose to go a little away myself.

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 14 August 2007 - 07:22 PM.

[DominO]

From this, I think we could accuratly conclude that you are not someone who could injoy a long relationship. Compromise does not exist only in love relationship but every other form of relation with others. You live in a society, you abide by the rules and compromise by accepting to lose a part of your liberty. In a love relationship you accept to give up a part of your liberty to acquire something which you injoy more than the liberty you have lost. The moment you injoy more that liberty you don't have anymore then keeping that relationship is a pretention you may just as well leave that person.

If you don't compromise, the other has to compromise double, you'll be an abuser.

You seem to ignore that maintaining any sort of relation with others has a price.

That's one way of defining compromise. It's such a definition that no matter what we do, we are invariably compromising even when we least imagine. However, I'm not concerned with that definition, or perspective.

I understand reasonably well what you are saying and where you are coming from. I understand that when one really likes or loves someone, one will be tempted to do whatever it takes to satisfy thy lovers heart.

When you say "chooses" to adapt to the said relationship, what do you mean? Do you mean now that one is forced to watch romantic comedies, not because one likes to, but because their partner likes to? And because their partner is watching, out of "respect" and "to spend time together", you will sit there wasting two hours of your life watching something you do not enjoy simply to satisfy your partner?

And a woman never allows a man to behave in any way. A man's choice of behavior is not dependent on a woman's allowance, nor vice versa. Behavior comes from within and how people act is a reflection of who they are and how they think. If she does not like it, she can pack her bags and leave. That's my point. People get into relationships and try to change each other. Why?

We don't demand such silly things in friendship and put ridiculous expectations on friends to conform to our little whims and fancies, yet why do we demand the same in relationships and love? This makes no god damned sense.

[Anonymouse]

From this, I think we could accuratly conclude that you are not someone who could injoy a long relationship. Compromise does not exist only in love relationship but every other form of relation with others. You live in a society, you abide by the rules and compromise by accepting to lose a part of your liberty. In a love relationship you accept to give up a part of your liberty to acquire something which you injoy more than the liberty you have lost. The moment you injoy more that liberty you don't have anymore then keeping that relationship is a pretention you may just as well leave that person.

If you don't compromise, the other has to compromise double, you'll be an abuser.

You seem to ignore that maintaining any sort of relation with others has a price.

I've already addressed the idea of "price" or better known as what Sip called trade-offs. That has nothing to do with compromise. You seem to confuse the two and keep appealing to your ignorance of what you believe ought to be the case.

Living in society and accepting the laws and dictates of the State is not the same as compromising. You have no choice in accepting government fiat, whereas you do have choice and control over who you are in a relationship with. So this analogy automatically fails on relevance as an association fallacy.

And this is not about giving up a part of your liberty when you are in a relationship. This is a red herring. I never even raised this issue. Do you see me supporting the idea that when one is in a relationship that one can just go and hang out with any chick, kiss any girl? The freedoms you give up for fidelity in a relationship come with the territory. Do you see this thread title? Does it say anything about freedom and fidelity?

Sadly, from your post I gather you will be the "palas" in any relationship.

Edited by Anonymouse, 14 August 2007 - 06:49 PM.

[Harut]

the fact of the matter remains that there are women (a whole lot of them) who in their twisted minds see men as dolls... they think they can take men, and shape them to be NOT what men actually are, but what they want them to be... and large precentage of them actually succeed... but then if the man is such "anvoghnashar" than that's what he deserves anyways...

[DominO]

Living in society and accepting the laws and dictates of the State is not the same as compromising. You have no choice in accepting government fiat, whereas you do have choice and control over who you are in a relationship with. So this analogy automatically fails on relevance as an association fallacy.

I will just answer this part, the rest doesn't even worth answering to (no content). This is nonesense, it is actually the same thing. You have the choice of packing your bags and move somewhere in the North to live in your own. You live in a society much like someone live with another in a relationship. You have the choice to not compromise in either case. You are free to brake the law and not compromise, then you will pay the consequences, in a relationship the consequence might just as well be losing that relationship. It's as simple as that.

[Takoush]

It's interesting that the females thought this way. However, I never said anything about finding anyone with the exact same values or someone who is in tune with you on everything. Are you folks reading the same thread? It's about finding someone who will accept you for you are and not make you compromise and try to change you (both your core values of who you are, as well as little shit like what kind of movies you want to watch, because as anyone in relationships know, arguments revolve around the little things, habits, choices, etc.). It has nothing to do with finding someone who has the same and identical values as you.

Anon jan; when finding a woman that you wish to spend time with and especially eventually to marry; you must make sure that your core values are very close to being identical. This is truly important. Frankly speaking from my own perspective; when I went to a date I concentrated on the guy that I'm with and not just the movie I'll be going. Personally I am a flexible person to be with. But when it comes to the little things; I believe that you can compromise at least every now and then. I am not saying that you have to count how many times you gave in. But I think that if a couple truly love each other then you'll give in to some of the things that mean so much to her and but she should do the same to you. For instance, when you want to go to a theatre so much more than a movie she wants; than it's her call to give in to you. That in my books, is love.

Consider this; even with your friends. Do they always go the places that only you want? Or you both give in at different times. You both must give in; otherwise you won't stay friends, right? If you don't care for the other human being; then you'll end up without a friend. So you must and you do care.

However, it is everything about how women have this innate drive and nature to try to 'change a man'. It's sort of hardwired in their 'makeover' gene, like when they get a room, they want to decorate and do a makeover. They try the same thing with their men.

I don't know what type of women you're meeting Arman jan; but this musn't be. If any woman tries to change a man, she will not have that man for long. Now I have seen some women do it very subtly and they succeed sometimes; but after a while when they start getting cocky then they lose. They think they can get away with everything but usually they cannot. I don't think any woman or any man should get into a relationship with the mindset of trying to change their lover/spouse.

They should get into a relationship with the mindset of a newly found love and putting out their heart rather than money, controlling or owning.

And from what I read here by you; you have a macho type characther and you probably are one. So my dear cyber friend don't settle for anything less. Just settle for real love and sweetness!!!!

[Sasun]

And if this stance is going to curse me to a life of solitude, then so be it.

As one wise man has said, solitude is the price of greatness.

[Takoush]

It is even more funny that you used "linum" instead of "g@lla gor".

[Anonymouse]

I will just answer this part, the rest doesn't even worth answering to (no content). This is nonesense, it is actually the same thing. You have the choice of packing your bags and move somewhere in the North to live in your own. You live in a society much like someone live with another in a relationship. You have the choice to not compromise in either case. You are free to brake the law and not compromise, then you will pay the consequences, in a relationship the consequence might just as well be losing that relationship. It's as simple as that.

Ever heard of the social contract? Now, realize that the social contract is actually a myth. People are never asked what the laws and institutions should be. They are decided in advance, exclusively by powerful people. Government is an organized monopoly of violence in a given territory and it is the same wherever you go. Thus you have no choice in the matter of paying taxes. Taxation is by default part of the government make up. So stop making stupid analogies. Government laws are based on coercion, being in a relationship is a voluntary matter. Stop being obtuse and making stupid analogies.

Edited by Anonymouse, 14 August 2007 - 08:10 PM.

[DominO]

Ever heard of the social contract? Now, realize that the social contract is actually a myth. People are never asked what the laws and institutions should be. They are decided in advance, exclusively by powerful people. Government is an organized monopoly of violence in a given territory and it is the same wherever you go. Thus you have no choice in the matter of paying taxes. Taxation is by default part of the government make up. So stop making stupid analogies. Government laws are based on coercion, being in a relationship is a voluntary matter. Stop being obtuse and making stupid analogies.

I have no interest in debating with you so I'll rest my case.

[Anoushik]

I totally agree with you anoushik jan. I guess you are a classy lady like I really thought you are and because you are!!! It sure sounds like it my dear. By going away to let go of yourself in my books, above all you respect yourself. That's the way I am brought up by my family and that is also the way I am.

Thank you Anahid. It's good to be understood

[Takoush]

As one wise man has said, solitude is the price of greatness.

It is so good of you to pop in again our inspirational cyber friend!

Today was a beautiful sunny day wasn't it? I mean it wasn't as humid and hot as it has been lately.

[nairi]

Arman,

The reason why you are so negative about compromise is because you have stereotyped men and women to such an extent that you can no longer see any individual differences.

Not all women like shallow comedies, and not all men like beer and football. Not all women want to change their man, and not all men have no interest in changing their woman. Get this out of your head. Once you do, you may well find someone with whom you will not mind compromising little things.

Like I said earlier: you will never find anyone who is 100% in tune with you. Whichever way you take it, any successful relationship is based on giving, taking, and losing some (or gaining some, if we believe Vava). If you don't want to give and lose some, then stay out of a relationship.

[Takoush]

As one wise man has said, solitude is the price of greatness.

So Sasun jan, let me guess who the wise man is. Possibly Taoism.

Solitude he said would be greatness, because he can go to the mountains, the rivers and lakes and either create, paint and or stay in his cubicle and read, study and write. He can commit his life to great creations. And if he is not a creating type; then he can be left to be in peace. No one to bother him or pushing him to do things against his will.

That may be; but a life with no loved one to share it with can also be fruitless, boring at times, no excitement and excitability; at least sometimes, no intimacy (which is not in par with man's biological makeup) and finally without children.

Well, there's the two sides of the coin.

[Ariane]

Nor am I denying that kids change the relationship, period. In fact, almost everyone I talk to says that after children, their relations change, especially sexually. However, this to me would indicate a certain asterisk in life. What you do for your kids, whose lives depend on you since you brought them into this world, would be a bit of different compromise, than your cliche husband/wife yells and demands.

Sure, kids change relationship, but only for a while, cause it's a new organisation in the house, someone new is living at home, and he only depends of you, it takes a good year by kid, for parents adapt.
Usually, the mother takes care for the baby, it takes time in a day which always has 24hours, it's hard when the woman continues to work. That's why, (I think), it's good, if possible, the woman stops to work. While the father has to understand this moment, to wait and still love his wife.
May be it's a compromise... if both wanted kids

[nairi]

the fact of the matter remains that there are women (a whole lot of them) who in their twisted minds see men as dolls... they think they can take men, and shape them to be NOT what men actually are, but what they want them to be... and large precentage of them actually succeed... but then if the man is such "anvoghnashar" than that's what he deserves anyways...

Harut, the same could be said about many men. Think about abusive relationships.

[Harut]

Harut, the same could be said about many men. Think about abusive relationships.

true... but the difference is that men are usually straight forward with their demands... and there is not much change in their behavior from dating to marriage life... but women, they seduce (read, grab men from their balls) and then dictate their wishes...

[Takoush]

Harut, the same could be said about many men. Think about abusive relationships.

Yes indeed!!!! I agree with Nairi here. In a nutshell; there are women who are extremely demanding and controlling and there are men who are abusive.

It takes a willing and a virtuous woman to make a good marriage work as well as a relationship and it takes a virtuous man to work alongside his spouse to make the marriage and the union work nice and successfully.

[Sasun]

That may be; but a life with no loved one to share it with can also be fruitless, boring at times, no excitement and excitability; at least sometimes, no intimacy (which is not in par with man's biological makeup) and finally without children.

That is what sets apart great men from average men, because the former have a different purpose in life and don't have the needs of an average person.

Coming to relationships, there are many little things that one can compromise to accomodate for the legitimate needs or even weeknesses of the partner. But that doesn't mean one has to compromise who he/she is. Small things are well worth to give up to make your other half happy, but to give up your fundamental values to change yourself so as to satisfy the whims of your partner is not the right way to go IMO. For example, if I like to listen to classical music but I am asked not to do that I will say NO. But if I have to lower the volume not to disturb then I will do that, that really does not change who I am.

The bottom line is love, respect and mutual understanding. When these are in place you don't have to think hard to figure out what needs to be compromised and what needs not. A loving partner will never ask you to give up what is important for you but will in fact sacrifice some of his/her things to accomodate you. If this is mutual then both will live in a happy and harmonious way and willingly change themselves to be better persons.

Edited by Sasun, 15 August 2007 - 10:44 AM.

[Yervant1]

Good to see you again Sasun Jan, great post as usuall.
Unfortunately nowadays mostly people are asking what's in it for ME.