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#21 THOTH

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 01:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gamavor:
Thoth,

Don't be so angry with me. I haven't said that you are a Turk.



LOL - Did I come accross as angry? No - not at all. Why should I be (Ok well you were a bit negative)...I think that you may be trying to hard to categorize folks etc - I think everyone has a right to be dealt with as an individual. Do you not think that there may not be some Turks more kind/gentle/caring/friendly or whatever then though? It is possible you know (even if you dislike certain aspects of their culture). Some of my best friends are french you know...

#22 gamavor

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 01:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by THOTH:
Timucin
It seems to me that the very existence of nations implys some level/degree of nationalism among its citizens - perhaps with distincions in degree - where some might be just patriotic versus others who are more "Uber Alles" in their views - politically and or culturally.

?




This is the only point that I agreed with you.

#23 abenlian

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 05:08 PM

Reading your discussion on cultural and political nationalism one gets confused as to what exactly these terms mean. To me they delegate empty and floating abstractions with no real basis in reality. If you could specify a bit what your disagreements are, perhaps you'll find that there are none, and the points that you disagree with may not even be relevent to what you relate to as cultural and political nationalism.

Can you concretize and give uniform examples defining the formation of cultural and political nationalism?

#24 MJ

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 05:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by gamavor:
MJ is right when he says that Armenian Political Nationalism resulted of Armenian Cultural Nationalism. I would rather say the Idea for national independence.




Gamavor,

Actually I disagree somewhat with your interpretation.

Even if we agree that, in our case, the idea of Independence has resulted from the Cultural Nationalism, I find it highly questionable whether that’s what the idea of Independence has to result from.

#25 ara baliozian

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 06:40 AM

to recapitulate:
on culture and politics:
the aim of culture (literature, the arts, philosophy, the sciences, etc.) is to understand reality.
The aim of politics is power.
The two are incompatible and mutually exclusive concepts.
One reason why writers/thinkers from Socrates to Solzhenitsyn were persecuted by politicians.
That is also why most of our own writers were murdered, misunderstood, rejected, and silenced.
A writer who goes into politics prostitutes literature and cannot be said to be a writer anymore.
Thinkers are men of contemplation.
Politicians are men of action.
The Yogi and the Commissar.
Arthur Koestler has written a great book on that subject and under that title.

#26 THOTH

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 08:20 AM

Ara,

Do you not think that there are philosophers/writers and such who might be promoting questionable or less then benficial ideas - often with questionable motivation - or worse (Hitler was a writer once I recall - though perhaps he already was a politician by that time)...and on the flip side - are all politicians (or leaders at any level) necessicarily motivated by power alone - might not some have the best interest of their people in mind and are commited to using their talents to do (what they percieve is) the best for their people? (like a Chief Joseph or some such)...(is this always a bad thing)?

While I certainly share your expressed view(s) (here and in general) for the most part - I do not think its/their application is necessarily universal. And some people are better wired for action - others for contemplation/expression - does a prediliction for one over the other really make a person a good one or bad - cannot both have their roles and contribute - cannot we find those who are good or bad in either group? Certainly artistic expression in its pure honest form should not have ulterior motivation beyond pure expression of the ideas and talents of the artists - but as we all know - we do not live in a perfect world - and humans are imperfect creatures with often questionable motivations.

Anyway, take care and keep on thinking and keeping us thinking...critics be damned! (and I think you've already spoken on the motivations of critics)

#27 abenlian

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 09:00 AM

On the basis of Ara's formulation of culture and politics I can't escape thinking of two fundamental questions. What are the philosophical differences between the two ethnic groups in the forum? For example, there is a drastic difference between the philosophy of communist China and semi-free USA. And the second question pertains to the distinction between political pool that is evident in the existance of centralized government and ethnic identity that permeates the masses. If you suppose that political nationlism is a cover up for a protectionist's power lust, national pride is its distorted version in the eyes of the average citizen.

#28 MJ

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Posted 01 September 2001 - 07:50 AM

ara baliozian
Member
Member # 271
posted August 27, 2001 07:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ON PATRIOTISM AND OTHER
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
************************************
Patriotism may well be abolished on the day an enlightened mankind catalogues all the crimes that have been committed in its name.
If anyone ever dares to criticize one of our benefactors, an entire army of brown-nosers, parasites, hangers-on, flunkies and yes-man rise to his defense. But if a dissident is silenced, it’s like a tree that falls in the middle of nowhere.

You want to see me silenced? Stop reading me and as far as you are concerned, I shall have been silenced. But if you think I am a bad influence on the next generation, consider the verbal crap that our political parties dish out daily in our schools and media thus legitimizing and reinforcing the persistence of our fragmentation and tribalism.

The distance between a man you know from a distance and a man you know close-up, may be equal to the distance that exists between an ordinary Joe and Jack the Ripper.

There are three ways to get to know a man well: to marry him (if you happen to be of the opposite sex, though that is no longer a necessary condition), to have a fight with him, or to work for him. Likewise, the best way to understand a country is to make a living in it. The rest is tourist patriotism.

--------------------

ara baliozian

#29 aurguplu

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Posted 04 September 2001 - 03:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ara baliozian:
to recapitulate:
on culture and politics:
the aim of culture (literature, the arts, philosophy, the sciences, etc.) is to understand reality.
The aim of politics is power.
The two are incompatible and mutually exclusive concepts.
One reason why writers/thinkers from Socrates to Solzhenitsyn were persecuted by politicians.
That is also why most of our own writers were murdered, misunderstood, rejected, and silenced.
A writer who goes into politics prostitutes literature and cannot be said to be a writer anymore.
Thinkers are men of contemplation.
Politicians are men of action.
The Yogi and the Commissar.
Arthur Koestler has written a great book on that subject and under that title.




dear ara,

you say that culture and politics are mutually exclusive, and that one cannot have two hats (if i understand correctly).

what about the great greek writers who were also statesmen? or victor hugo, who was later to become a president of france? did they prostitute their creative talents?

i agree with you that culture and arts do have different aims, but only partly: i see culture as a way of life. life is like a journey that presents us with thousands of obstacles, problems and new situations. how we overcome them, solve them and adapt to them, plus how we turn life from merre survival into something more enjoyable, is what i understand to be culture.

politics is not directly opposed to culture, but rather part of it. politics has its own ends and means, and if an authoritarian political system gets too strong, it can stifle creativity and development. but politics cannot be divorced from culture. no human activity can.

we are social animals, and like other social animals, we have a political culture (all sophisticated social animals do). our political culture is further sophisticated by the fact that we have a faculty called language, which, in addition to enabling communication between different members of any one group at any given time, also serves as a repository of past experiences and a vehicle to formulate solutions for expected future problems. add to this the humna tendency to base group adherence on linguistic ties (amongst other things, of course), and you arrive at a fairly accurate picture of one of the aspects of the formation of political culture in humans.

so in my opinion we should not attempt to exclude any aspect of human experience from the sphere of culture. things as basic as the regulation of bodily functions are dictated by culture.

regards,

ali suat

#30 arziv

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 06:30 AM

QUOTE (ara baliozian @ Aug 6 2001, 05:57 AM)
ON NATIONALISM
OR THE WAGES OF PREJUDICE
***************************************
Political scientists have called nationalism "an infantile disease" and so it is. Nationalism may satisfy our vanity but it also makes of us prejudiced observers. One reason Hitler lost the war is that he drove his Jewish scientists, among them Einstein, into exile because he considered them inferior to his German scientists. As a result, the Jewish scientists established themselves in the United States where they were successful in developing the first atom bomb.

Prejudice and objective judgment are mutually exclusive concepts. When we say we are proud Armenians, we voice a prejudice and not an objective assessment. Scientists know something political leaders donít: namely, the validity of a theory recognizes no national barriers. If we are going to learn from our history, we must approach our past with scientific objectivity. Then and only then we may be in a position to admit blunders and to learn from them. Otherwise we will be like the blind leading the blind, and to paraphrase still another biblical dictum, the wages of prejudice shall be death.

Nationalism is a dead end and its inevitable end is death Ė the death of the nation.

Business prostitutes the artist to the same degree that ideology prostitutes the historian. It follows that, a historian who enjoys the support of a political party or a regime with a clearly defined agenda has adopted charlatanism as his credo. And this applies to Turkish as well as Armenian historians.





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