600 replies to this topic

[Anonymouse]

That was sick!!!

The washing part is accurate, but the rest was absolutely unnecessary and vulgar. Yuck.

[Yervant1]

The latest Spring Calendar Photoshoot ...

Hey Sip may I order some of those calenders please?
Man that is funny!!!

Edited by Yervant1, 23 May 2007 - 07:46 PM.

[Anoushik]

This is not for real, right? They don't pose for pictures dressed in hijabs or whatever it's called, right?

[Sassun]

My question is about those Moslems that are truly after the Quran, yet they would love to have fun with European girls.

Well, first of all, there is such a thing in Islam called "Ahl al Kitab" (People of the Book), referring to Jews and Christians. A Muslim man may marry a "Kitabiya" (i.e. a Jewish or Christian woman) but the other way around is not allowed. Anyway, in Shi'i (Shi'ite) Islam (concentrated in Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon mostly, with significant minorities in other countries) there is something called "zawaj mutaa", literally, marriage of pleasure... it's of course made by mutual agreement between the man and woman. And it differs from the "regular" marriage. It's temporary...

Sunnis do not agree with this concept.
And I would say that their fooling around with European girls is not something that they would be able to do if they are practicing Muslims.
The problem is that there are many Muslims "by name". The Qur'an calls them munafiqoon (hypocrites). There is an entire chapter on them in the Qur'an.

[Johannes]

Բոլոր կրօններուն նման այդ կրօնն ալ հակասութիւններով լեցուն է:
Իսլամը հեթանոսութեան, մովսիսականութեան, քրիստոնէութեան եւ արաբական մշակոյթի խառնուրդ մըն է:
Իսլամը արաբ ազգի հանգամանքը բարձրացնող ազգային (արաբ) կրօն մըն է:
Իսլամը կը պանծացնէ արաբերէն լեզուն, արգիլելով Կուրանի թարգմանութիւնը:
Իսլամը արաբ ազգին շնորհեց այն ինչ որ միայն հրեաներուն կը շնորհւեր. մարգարէներ, երկինքի հետ ուղղակի կապ, Աստուածային կամքի անունով խօսելու իրաւունք, բնիկ արաբական երկրի միջազգային ուխտավայր դառնալու առիթ եւայլն եւայլն
Ես կրօն ըսելով չեմ հաւատար, որեւէ գրուածքի, որ մարդու պիղծ ձեռքով գրուած է, բայց կը հրամցուի իբր Աստուղոյ կողմէ երկինքէն ուղղակի իջած խօսք:
21րդ դարը կրօններու դար չէ: Բոլոր կրօններն ալ իրենց հոգեվառքը (վերջին շունչը) կ'ապրին: Իրենց վերջին կայծերը կը պլպլան ամբողջովին մարելէ առաջ:
Կարդացէք պատմութիւն. պիտի տեսնեք թէ որքա՜ն փոխուած են կրօնները, դարձեալ մարդկային-քաղաքական պահանջները գոհացնելու համար...

[vahan79]

I must say that Islam has quite a fashion sense that has developed over the centuries! Nothing like a hijab to turn on a man. Less is more!

Uh, that's kinda the point of hijab...to NOT turn men on.

[vahan79]

Well, first of all, there is such a thing in Islam called "Ahl al Kitab" (People of the Book), referring to Jews and Christians. A Muslim man may marry a "Kitabiya" (i.e. a Jewish or Christian woman) but the other way around is not allowed. Anyway, in Shi'i (Shi'ite) Islam (concentrated in Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon mostly, with significant minorities in other countries) there is something called "zawaj mutaa", literally, marriage of pleasure... it's of course made by mutual agreement between the man and woman. And it differs from the "regular" marriage. It's temporary...

Sunnis do not agree with this concept.
And I would say that their fooling around with European girls is not something that they would be able to do if they are practicing Muslims.
The problem is that there are many Muslims "by name". The Qur'an calls them munafiqoon (hypocrites). There is an entire chapter on them in the Qur'an.

Isn't this true of all religions? Christians aren't supposed to be having sex outside of marriage either...those European girls aren't "true Christians" either. Also, isn't a religion that has different rules (muslim man can marry whomever, but not vice versa) for each gender kind of unappealing, Sassun? Also, zawaj mutaa is an abomination, I can't believe that ture Shi'ites think it's okay either (the woman will be unmarriable).

But on a sidenote, the double standard is alive and well in Armenia, too. Armenian women virtually encourage their boyfriends to have sex with prostitutes (often Russian) to avoid loosening their own virginity, but to keep the man happy...

[aSoldier]

Armenian women virtually encourage their boyfriends to have sex with prostitutes (often Russian) to avoid loosening their own virginity, but to keep the man happy...

For our country's sake I hope you're wrong.

[Sassun]

Uh, that's kinda the point of hijab...to NOT turn men on.

I wouldn't go that far... the point of the Hijab is modesty of women .

[Sassun]

Isn't this true of all religions? Christians aren't supposed to be having sex outside of marriage either...those European girls aren't "true Christians" either.

Yes ... that is the whole point , is it not ? I think that too much goes on under the name of "secularism " .

Also, isn't a religion that has different rules (muslim man can marry whomever, but not vice versa) for each gender kind of unappealing, Sassun?

why is it unappealing ? what is the problem with different rules for men and women ? men also have rules that they must abide by , in Islam , so it is not as if women are singled out . this is also the same even from the perspective of cultures which often have different rules for and expectations from men and women.

Also, zawaj mutaa is an abomination, I can't believe that ture Shi'ites think it's okay either (the woman will be unmarriable).

actually , this is untrue . Zawaj mutaa is accepted religiously though there might be some resistance culturally to this . there was a debate about this lately, in Iran , if you followed the news on this , the statement made by Iran's interior minister . anyway , it is actually legal in Iran and many people do it , and Iran is the 'seat ' of the supreme Shi'ite religious authority / the Wali al Faqih , and the only Shi'ite Islamic republic . note that this is considered different than prostitution in religious circles (it is actually done by mutual agreement betw male & female ) and so it is acceptable and not an abomination like extramarital sex is .

But on a sidenote, the double standard is alive and well in Armenia, too. Armenian women virtually encourage their boyfriends to have sex with prostitutes (often Russian) to avoid loosening their own virginity, but to keep the man happy...

i did not know that , but in the case of say Iran , women would not need to do that , they can do the temporary marriage with their bf , and later on do the 'regular' marriage , and so temp marriage idea is also a way to battle prostitution .

[vahan79]

Yes ... that is the whole point , is it not ? I think that too much goes on under the name of "secularism " .
why is it unappealing ? what is the problem with different rules for men and women ? men also have rules that they must abide by , in Islam , so it is not as if women are singled out . this is also the same even from the perspective of cultures which often have different rules for and expectations from men and women.
actually , this is untrue . Zawaj mutaa is accepted religiously though there might be some resistance culturally to this . there was a debate about this lately, in Iran , if you followed the news on this , the statement made by Iran's interior minister . anyway , it is actually legal in Iran and many people do it , and Iran is the 'seat ' of the supreme Shi'ite religious authority / the Wali al Faqih , and the only Shi'ite Islamic republic . note that this is considered different than prostitution in religious circles (it is actually done by mutual agreement betw male & female ) and so it is acceptable and not an abomination like extramarital sex is .
i did not know that , but in the case of say Iran , women would not need to do that , they can do the temporary marriage with their bf , and later on do the 'regular' marriage , and so temp marriage idea is also a way to battle prostitution .

(1) You aren't fooling God with these sham marriages. There is no way that they are acceptable in His eyes.

(2) Different roles would be one thing, but when "different" means inferior, then it means quite another. No one is checking a man's virginity (unruptured hymen, etc.), no one is forcing a man to cover anything (though I know some Muslims that cover knees and elbows), you don't need more examples, do you? That "different roles" dogma is just a modern Islamic sophisticated academic response to accusations that Islam is sexist and oppressive of women. Don't get me wrong, Christianity in its true, Biblical sense is sexist (i.e., women are a man's property), but most sects have evolved past that. Islam remains antiquated, except among some academics. These academics contort Islam to fulfill the role they WISH it did. They reinterpret Islam through a false lens in order to make it fit their needs.

(3) Islam can only function as a good religion when it is not tied up with the State. Separation of Church and State is essential to a healthy society. This is why Islam has become unruly. Each state (divided up by Brits, mostly) has its own practices and everything the oppressive governments want to do is justified in the name of God, rather than what it really is. Also, we have Islam dictating modesty among the women, while Jordan and Syria are led by supermodel, make-up wearing, anhijabi (hijab-less) women. It's weird, man.

[Sassun]

1. No one is fooling God. It is in the Qur'an / Al Nisa'a : 24 / and the ahadeeth (hadith ) .

2. Women are not inferior to men . Men are stronger physically and that is why they are to protect women , not for any other reason . This is not just part of Islam but many other cultures / traditions / social norms .

And as for checking a woman's virginity , this is a non-issue in Islam , and this is why temp marriage is not a problem . Some people have wrongly assumed/said that having temp marriage with a virgin is "makrooh" (disliked act ) (NOT the same as haram / forbidden ) . but even if it is makrooh , this is not because a woman must be a virgin (if that were the case it would have been haram ... ) in order to be able to marry later on . As I said , virginity is a non-issue in Islam , and if in Islamic societies it is an issue it is due to social / cultural reasons and not Islamic teachings .

You are wrong that Islam is antiquated . There is a lot of Ijtihad going on in Islam , both in Shi'ite as well as Sunni thought , though in the former more than in the latter . And as for academics you mention , I do not hold them in high regard , if you are talking about the likes of Mohammed Arkoun , etc . The Shiite clerics are almost all very learned and very open to modernity and the challenges of modernization and globalization . One such cleric is Ayatollah Sayyed Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah , who is one of the prominent clerics in Lebanon (I emulate him ) . He also has a bone to pick with the Iranian religious authorities on a number of issues and disagrees w/ them on the issue of the Wilayat al Faqih . anyway we are straying too far away from the topic @ hand.

3. The problem of the states you mention is not that they are not secular . In fact , most are in reality secular ... the problem is that dictatorial regimes , in order to keep their thrones untouched , resort to religious rhetoric , which is the easiest to use and echoes widely . This is why in all these states , you have the authorities having tight control over the religious authorities ! (This was the case btw in Ottoman Turkey too , and hence the "imams" / "clerics" actually were the primary tool for inciting the masses ) . Btw , in Syria the Hijab is not forced (nor in Lebanon ) nor in Jordan , nor in Palestine , nor in Egypt , and in fact Tunisia is trying to walk in the steps of the Iranian Shah who at one point forced women to take off the Hijab and Chadors , and the police tore them off women's head s / bodies... Syria is , despite the criminal behavior of the Assad regime , a secular regime , and its primary enemies are the (Sunni ) Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood ) . The Brotherhood has branches in Egypt , Palestine (Hamas ) , Jordan , etc.

I agree with secularism .

[Sip]

Sassun, as has been going on over and over in this thread, there is often what you believe (let's call it your interpretation of Islam if you want), and there is "real life". I have no doubt that you are a great guy with a good heart. I just don't understand why you want to associate yourself with organized religion when you yourself have the ability to set much better standards for yourself.

[Sassun]

Sassun, as has been going on over and over in this thread, there is often what you believe (let's call it your interpretation of Islam if you want), and there is "real life". I have no doubt that you are a great guy with a good heart. I just don't understand why you want to associate yourself with organized religion when you yourself have the ability to set much better standards for yourself.

Sip
Regarding the highlighted part of your paragraph - how do i have the ability to set better standards for my self ? what would those standards be ? Why do I associate myself with organized religion ? Because religion gives answers that I haven't been able to find elsewhere (and as for why Islam ? because it gives answers that I could not find in Christianity ) . Can science explain to me why some things have happened ? Why some people have done certain things , or others have behaved a certain way ? Is there something that can explain these things to me ? No , there isn't, except the fact that it was God's will , and because I was walking in the wrong path . When I was still Christian , I was a non-believing "Christian " , only Christian on paper , so you can say I was not into religion , but that did not give me much answers . Anyway ...

[Sip]

You read the Qur'an and interpret it however you want. All I am saying is don't give the credit to the Qur'an ... give the credit to yourself. Some people read the Qur'an and go murder, kill, rape, and pillage. Others such as yourself read the Qur'an and find happiness, comfort, peace, etc. That tells me the Qur'an is neither the source nor the solution ... it is all in YOU. Use your god damn brain for Allah's sake and figure things out. He gave it to you

As far as "it was God's will" .. that is no explanation for anything. That's merely a lazy man's way out of trying to explain things. And why does everything have to have an explanation? Why do you feel comfort in the generic "explanation" of "it was God's will" and somehow feel uneasy in acknowledging the fact that there are just going to be some things we are going to have to live with not knowing.

[Sassun]

Sip, hmm.. you have a point. Yes of course I interpret the Qur'an (though with a bit of help) , but the idea is that there is one true explanation / interpretation and we must strive to know it and behave accordingly . You probably will not find it logical when I say that there are right / correct interpretations and there are wrong ones , and of course the wrong ones are those that justify horrible acts . This is what i mean when I say that Islam and the Qur'an are innocent of the acts of Muslims (which is also relevant to this topic of Muslim men 'using' Christian women etc ). Of course , it is in people's hearts and minds , because no matter what you do , if a person is dead set on interpreting something a certain way , then he will not see anything other than that in a text - as the saying goes , թռի ալ այծ է:
But still , that i interpret it does not mean that all the credit goes to me , it goes to the text of the Qur'an , too . And also the religious debate sessions / meetings that we often have , which often revolve on explanations (tafsir ) of the Qur'anic verses and relating them to daily activities and behavior . these sessions are in many cases youth sessions , too. people my age , in their twenties and thirties . i often go to these . i think that there is much more debate in Muslim societies on Islam than people give them credit for . if they were as open to political debates and political rule (rather than just assassinating the people they disagreed with ) , we would not have any of those problems that we have today .

Everything has to have an explanation. Because I am a perfectionist.
I want answers for everything . I want to know why things happened , why people acted a certain way , and so on .
And do you know how disappointing it is to search and search and not find an explanation , not even a tiny ray of hope ?
And as for accepting the "it was God's will " explanation , well it is not so much an explanation as it is a resignation , because if I cannot find out why things happened , then I accept that it happened -- and since I cannot not attribute it to something , I attribute it to God's will.

[vahan79]

Sip, hmm.. you have a point. Yes of course I interpret the Qur'an (though with a bit of help) , but the idea is that there is one true explanation / interpretation and we must strive to know it and behave accordingly . You probably will not find it logical when I say that there are right / correct interpretations and there are wrong ones , and of course the wrong ones are those that justify horrible acts . This is what i mean when I say that Islam and the Qur'an are innocent of the acts of Muslims (which is also relevant to this topic of Muslim men 'using' Christian women etc ). Of course , it is in people's hearts and minds , because no matter what you do , if a person is dead set on interpreting something a certain way , then he will not see anything other than that in a text - as the saying goes , թռի ալ այծ է:
But still , that i interpret it does not mean that all the credit goes to me , it goes to the text of the Qur'an , too . And also the religious debate sessions / meetings that we often have , which often revolve on explanations (tafsir ) of the Qur'anic verses and relating them to daily activities and behavior . these sessions are in many cases youth sessions , too. people my age , in their twenties and thirties . i often go to these . i think that there is much more debate in Muslim societies on Islam than people give them credit for . if they were as open to political debates and political rule (rather than just assassinating the people they disagreed with ) , we would not have any of those problems that we have today .

Everything has to have an explanation. Because I am a perfectionist.
I want answers for everything . I want to know why things happened , why people acted a certain way , and so on .
And do you know how disappointing it is to search and search and not find an explanation , not even a tiny ray of hope ?
And as for accepting the "it was God's will " explanation , well it is not so much an explanation as it is a resignation , because if I cannot find out why things happened , then I accept that it happened -- and since I cannot not attribute it to something , I attribute it to God's will.

Why did you convert to Islam? I mean, really, why? Someone you are dating or something.

[vahan79]

1. No one is fooling God. It is in the Qur'an / Al Nisa'a : 24 / and the ahadeeth (hadith ) .

2. Women are not inferior to men . Men are stronger physically and that is why they are to protect women , not for any other reason . This is not just part of Islam but many other cultures / traditions / social norms .

And as for checking a woman's virginity , this is a non-issue in Islam , and this is why temp marriage is not a problem . Some people have wrongly assumed/said that having temp marriage with a virgin is "makrooh" (disliked act ) (NOT the same as haram / forbidden ) . but even if it is makrooh , this is not because a woman must be a virgin (if that were the case it would have been haram ... ) in order to be able to marry later on . As I said , virginity is a non-issue in Islam , and if in Islamic societies it is an issue it is due to social / cultural reasons and not Islamic teachings .

You are wrong that Islam is antiquated . There is a lot of Ijtihad going on in Islam , both in Shi'ite as well as Sunni thought , though in the former more than in the latter . And as for academics you mention , I do not hold them in high regard , if you are talking about the likes of Mohammed Arkoun , etc . The Shiite clerics are almost all very learned and very open to modernity and the challenges of modernization and globalization . One such cleric is Ayatollah Sayyed Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah , who is one of the prominent clerics in Lebanon (I emulate him ) . He also has a bone to pick with the Iranian religious authorities on a number of issues and disagrees w/ them on the issue of the Wilayat al Faqih . anyway we are straying too far away from the topic @ hand.

3. The problem of the states you mention is not that they are not secular . In fact , most are in reality secular ... the problem is that dictatorial regimes , in order to keep their thrones untouched , resort to religious rhetoric , which is the easiest to use and echoes widely . This is why in all these states , you have the authorities having tight control over the religious authorities ! (This was the case btw in Ottoman Turkey too , and hence the "imams" / "clerics" actually were the primary tool for inciting the masses ) . Btw , in Syria the Hijab is not forced (nor in Lebanon ) nor in Jordan , nor in Palestine , nor in Egypt , and in fact Tunisia is trying to walk in the steps of the Iranian Shah who at one point forced women to take off the Hijab and Chadors , and the police tore them off women's head s / bodies... Syria is , despite the criminal behavior of the Assad regime , a secular regime , and its primary enemies are the (Sunni ) Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood ) . The Brotherhood has branches in Egypt , Palestine (Hamas ) , Jordan , etc.

I agree with secularism .

(1) Obviously there is room to disagree on whether these sham marriages are sanctioned by God, since even Muslims disagree. They are, however, illogical. If there is some important reason why sex must be in the confines of marriage, it must be for something other than the sheer formality of state-recognition. If you don't plan on long-term commitment, the marriage is a sham marriage...no matter how many Hadiths are issued.

(2) Why should physical strength be the touchtone of protection nowadays when this is seemingly irrelevant? What about intelligence (since this is how money is often made and money is how men "take care" of women now?) What if in a particular case the woman is stronger than the man (physically), then do the rules change? The problem with this is that it is a post hoc justification, not the actual reason. Some tribes (the NaXi of China, for instance) treat the woman as physically superior....

(3) Then explain hymen reconstruction? Why does it exist in Islamic countries? It is still very very very alive and well.

[Sassun]

Why did you convert to Islam? I mean, really, why? Someone you are dating or something.

Nooooo , i am not dating anyone (I wish i was ) ...
Why I converted to Islam ? Because I believe in it ? or is that a tautology ? lol
No , but really , I explained some of it in my reply to Sip here (and also in the other thread , in which I did not reply to you because you were a late comer and i had already stated that i will no longer reply in that thread ) , that it provides me with answers that i cannot find elsewhere , and it resonates with me . i mean , why not buddhism you might say ? yeah, because it does not resonate with me.. (is that the right word ? ) i don't know...

[Sassun]

(1) Obviously there is room to disagree on whether these sham marriages are sanctioned by God, since even Muslims disagree. They are, however, illogical. If there is some important reason why sex must be in the confines of marriage, it must be for something other than the sheer formality of state-recognition. If you don't plan on long-term commitment, the marriage is a sham marriage...no matter how many Hadiths are issued.

Marriage is a contract. It is not written in the books of Heaven. No one said that the act of marriage is a Heavenly act. However, extramarital sex is forbidden and a sin and the solution to this is temporary marriage. And as for your reference to Hadith , do you know what a Hadith is? It has nothing to do with today's clerics and their fatwas. Actually Muslims do not disagree on the core of the issue, that is, that temp. marriage is sanctioned by God... We only disagree on the issue of historical context. Well the Qur'an is up to interpretation but it does not mean that one can debate the interpretation of every single thing. Some things are pretty clear and there is consensus on them. Also , temp marriage is not a mere formality of state recognition. On the contrary , it is a religious issue ...

(2) Why should physical strength be the touchtone of protection nowadays when this is seemingly irrelevant? What about intelligence (since this is how money is often made and money is how men "take care" of women now?) What if in a particular case the woman is stronger than the man (physically), then do the rules change? The problem with this is that it is a post hoc justification, not the actual reason. Some tribes (the NaXi of China, for instance) treat the woman as physically superior....

You are talking about exceptions , whereas the issue is about norms and not exceptions . Rules for example, are about norms and not exceptions. Yeah, intelligence takes one a long way, but at the end of the day , if a woman is walking alone and a few men suddenly crop up out of nowhere and hurt her , of what use is intelligence here ?

(3) Then explain hymen reconstruction? Why does it exist in Islamic countries? It is still very very very alive and well.

Culture.
As I said , it has to do with culture and not religious beliefs . There is a misconception , even among some Muslims , on this issue. There are many misconceptions on many issues btw , and clerics are desperately trying to fix some of these things , like the bloodbath on Ashura , when people cut their heads etc. , the religious authorities have issued fatawa etc., but they have fallen on deaf ears often , because culture and myths that have become part of traditions ,are too strong and people do not find it easy to give up on them... though for example in Lebanon , to a large part , Hezb Allah has been able to discipline its followers into not doing these things (whereas the secular Shiite followers of Amal actually engage in these acts of cutting the heads and letting the blood spill ) ... Bottom line , it has to do with culture and the social norms , which do not always come from religion ....