As many of you already may know, there are probably millions of Armenians in Turkey who live as assimilated Turkish speaking Moslems. Iranyar informed me that they are called Hemshinlis. I am wondering whether Armenian groups have attempted to propangandized this group, teaching them about their Armenian heritage, and the crime that the Turkish government has committed. This could possibly be the Achilles Heel of Turkey, millions of seemingly loyal people who come to the realization their government has lied to them and strip them of their identity. This is what Basque groups have attempted to do in Spain(with some success) as well as the Kurds in Turkey who reach out to the many assimilated Kurds who live as Turks. Of course there is a psychological barrier for Armenians, as we often view these people as the worst kind of traitors.
Should Armenia propangandized the Hemshinlis?
Started by
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, Jul 29 2000 03:22 PM
17 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 30 July 2000 - 07:43 AM
Farsi jan,
Ask me after some 50 years. As for now, than I think we should propagandize the Armenians in Armenia and save the country from sects and everything.
Arayzhm
Ask me after some 50 years. As for now, than I think we should propagandize the Armenians in Armenia and save the country from sects and everything.
Arayzhm
#3
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Posted 30 July 2000 - 08:04 AM
Berj joon,
Good point. I guess the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are really making inroads in Armenian huh? The only way to combat this is for the Armenian Church to undergo a spiritual revival, and provide programs that appeal to the needs of the youth. I don't know about there in Armenia, but over here in California it is virtually nil. I am not talking about social activities(dances etc) I am talking about spiritual programs that teach about Christ, the Bible, etc from an Armenian perspective.
As for the Hemshinlis, I think one day the chickens will come home to roost for Turkey. The people will realize their country is one big lie, that they are not Turks, but rather Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, etc.
Good point. I guess the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are really making inroads in Armenian huh? The only way to combat this is for the Armenian Church to undergo a spiritual revival, and provide programs that appeal to the needs of the youth. I don't know about there in Armenia, but over here in California it is virtually nil. I am not talking about social activities(dances etc) I am talking about spiritual programs that teach about Christ, the Bible, etc from an Armenian perspective.
As for the Hemshinlis, I think one day the chickens will come home to roost for Turkey. The people will realize their country is one big lie, that they are not Turks, but rather Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, etc.
#4
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Posted 31 July 2000 - 06:48 AM
Dear Farsi
I think that you shouldn't regard the Hemshinli's as Turks, They are Armenians, many rural elderly Hemshinli still speak Armenian. I know a guy called Mehmet from Trabzon, who is a molem pontic greek and he said openly to me that he IS NOT a Turk
I think that you shouldn't regard the Hemshinli's as Turks, They are Armenians, many rural elderly Hemshinli still speak Armenian. I know a guy called Mehmet from Trabzon, who is a molem pontic greek and he said openly to me that he IS NOT a Turk
#5
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Posted 31 July 2000 - 02:26 PM
I bet there are only a few hundred thousand people in Turkey who are actually Turks racially speaking. Take a look at the Kazaks, Uighurs, etc. then take a look at the people in Turkey. Give me a break! There entire country is a lie, from its very foundation, one day the millions of Greeks, Armenians, Kurds etc. who have been deceived to live as Turks will wake up! Then maybe those few Mongols will pack up their yurts and go back to Mongolia! Inshallah!(WOW did that just come from me! I guess I have a bit of Armenian fanaticism in me after all!)
#6
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Posted 01 August 2000 - 05:29 AM
Wow Steve!!!
Congretulations!!!!
Felicidades!!!...lol...
Congretulations!!!!
Felicidades!!!...lol...
#7
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Posted 08 August 2000 - 08:49 PM
Hello people!
I still think this could be the Achilles heel of Turkey. I don't think Armenians should wait fifty years from now, because the memories of Armenian ties will be gone by then. There are still some older "Turks"(Hemshinlis) who speak Armenian. There are millions of people who have been deceived about their heritage. Armenians should propangandize Turks as much as they can, I am starting myself, I am going to Turkey.com to post the question"Examine your family tree, do you see an Armenian?" This might get a few "Turks" thinking. I am starting to realize why I like the individual Turks I meet, cause they aren't really Turks! Come on people let the truth mission begin!
I still think this could be the Achilles heel of Turkey. I don't think Armenians should wait fifty years from now, because the memories of Armenian ties will be gone by then. There are still some older "Turks"(Hemshinlis) who speak Armenian. There are millions of people who have been deceived about their heritage. Armenians should propangandize Turks as much as they can, I am starting myself, I am going to Turkey.com to post the question"Examine your family tree, do you see an Armenian?" This might get a few "Turks" thinking. I am starting to realize why I like the individual Turks I meet, cause they aren't really Turks! Come on people let the truth mission begin!
#8
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Posted 29 August 2000 - 10:50 PM
At least untill the latest events in Georgia, there was a significant Hamshenahai population in their province Abkhazia.
#9
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Posted 30 August 2000 - 02:05 AM
Steve,
You probably have noticed how Armenians are proud of their Christian heritage, and how suspicious they are of the surrounding Muslims (except for the Iranians, but that is a different story).
In the unlikely event that the hemshin rejoin their folk, how would Christian Armenians react ?
You probably have noticed how Armenians are proud of their Christian heritage, and how suspicious they are of the surrounding Muslims (except for the Iranians, but that is a different story).
In the unlikely event that the hemshin rejoin their folk, how would Christian Armenians react ?
#10
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Posted 19 October 2000 - 12:18 PM
The Hemshinli are not "assimilated Turkish speaking Moslems". They are Hemshinli!
THEY know that they are not Turk, or Laz, or Kurd, or pontic Greek - and if they wish to go further than that then it is up to THEM. They have done quite well in surviving for centuries without the help of meddling outsiders, and a bunch of foreigners forcing their idea of an Armenian identity onto them is probably the last thing they would want or accept. After all, they (at their own initiative) threw away their subservience to the Armenian church hundreds of years ago.
Also, there is nothing like millions of them - there are probably less than 50,000, with perhaps 15,000 of them still living in their ancestral homeland in the densely forested mountains of north eastern Turkey.
The comment on a "Hamshenahai" population in Abkhazia is interesting - I thought that the only Hemshinli living in Georgia lived in Ajaria (across the border from Turkey), and that most of them were deported to Asia by Stalin in the 1940s.
THEY know that they are not Turk, or Laz, or Kurd, or pontic Greek - and if they wish to go further than that then it is up to THEM. They have done quite well in surviving for centuries without the help of meddling outsiders, and a bunch of foreigners forcing their idea of an Armenian identity onto them is probably the last thing they would want or accept. After all, they (at their own initiative) threw away their subservience to the Armenian church hundreds of years ago.
Also, there is nothing like millions of them - there are probably less than 50,000, with perhaps 15,000 of them still living in their ancestral homeland in the densely forested mountains of north eastern Turkey.
The comment on a "Hamshenahai" population in Abkhazia is interesting - I thought that the only Hemshinli living in Georgia lived in Ajaria (across the border from Turkey), and that most of them were deported to Asia by Stalin in the 1940s.
#11
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Posted 19 October 2000 - 12:38 PM
Well, it may very well be that I should've said Adjaria instead of Abkhazia. But per my information, and I have not had vested interest in it, there were Hamshenahays in Abkhazia, too. But I am not going to argue about it, nor about whether Hamshenlis do consider themselves to be Armenians or not. If they do, the hearts of many of us will be open for them.
#12
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Posted 19 October 2000 - 02:31 PM
quote:
I guess I have a bit of Armenian fanaticism in me after all!)
I guess I have a bit of Armenian fanaticism in me after all!)
HA ha !! Just a tad......
#13
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Posted 19 October 2000 - 04:40 PM
The Hemshinahays in Georgia lived in the province of mesxeti, I don't know if they are still there or not, I've heared that they along with the Muslim Georgians were deported by the Russiansto central asia, not to give a bad example to the christian Georgians and Armenians.
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http://www.CyberIran...di_nazinazi.ram
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http://www.CyberIran...di_nazinazi.ram
#14
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Posted 28 October 2000 - 12:31 PM
I don't think the Georgian Hemshinli (or rather the Hemshinli who found themselves living in Georgia after 1920) lived in Mesxeti. Adjaria is directly opposite the border from the lands in Turkey they still live in. But wherever in Georgia they did live, there are none there now. They were deported in advance of Stalin's claim for the return of Kars and Ardahan, he thought that they and other Muslim minorities might be potentual allies of the Turks in any conflict.
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Posted 28 October 2000 - 12:41 PM
Belthecat,
I would appreciate if you could provide us with details on the claims on Kars and Ardahan, as it pertains to Hamshinli.
I would appreciate if you could provide us with details on the claims on Kars and Ardahan, as it pertains to Hamshinli.
#16
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Posted 31 October 2000 - 03:28 PM
MJ
There are probably more recent sources available, but in "The Nation Killers: the Soviet Deportation of Nationalities" (by Robert Conquest, London, 1970) there is a section on the deportation of the various Muslim groups living close to the Turkish border (mostly Islamised and Turkised Georgians, but including their Armenian equivalent - the Hemshinli) and now known as Meskhetian Turks.
Part of the text (page 48) says:
"On 15th November 1944 this mixed population was deported. It was not alleged against them that they had collaborated with the Germans - who had not come within hundreds of miles of the area. In fact the move was represented as not being of a penal nature at all, but a matter of evacuating them from an area which might be reached by the enemy. But by this time there was no question of the Germans, then on the point of defeat, being a real threat. The political and strategic motive was plainly - already - with a view to trouble with Turkey and the West. And, in fact, within the year articles were appearing in the USSR claiming Soviet rights over Georgian and other minority areas in north-east Turkey".
I think that this deportation may not have included the small urban Hemshinli population that would have been in Batumi, and probably the other Black Sea ports as well - perhaps they still exist, but without a rural population to sustain them they have probably been assimilated into the larger Muslim population.
There are probably more recent sources available, but in "The Nation Killers: the Soviet Deportation of Nationalities" (by Robert Conquest, London, 1970) there is a section on the deportation of the various Muslim groups living close to the Turkish border (mostly Islamised and Turkised Georgians, but including their Armenian equivalent - the Hemshinli) and now known as Meskhetian Turks.
Part of the text (page 48) says:
"On 15th November 1944 this mixed population was deported. It was not alleged against them that they had collaborated with the Germans - who had not come within hundreds of miles of the area. In fact the move was represented as not being of a penal nature at all, but a matter of evacuating them from an area which might be reached by the enemy. But by this time there was no question of the Germans, then on the point of defeat, being a real threat. The political and strategic motive was plainly - already - with a view to trouble with Turkey and the West. And, in fact, within the year articles were appearing in the USSR claiming Soviet rights over Georgian and other minority areas in north-east Turkey".
I think that this deportation may not have included the small urban Hemshinli population that would have been in Batumi, and probably the other Black Sea ports as well - perhaps they still exist, but without a rural population to sustain them they have probably been assimilated into the larger Muslim population.
#17
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Posted 01 November 2000 - 04:52 PM
Thanks for the info. I would be very interested to know in what way did Hamshenli relate to Kars and Ardahan?
Thanks.
Thanks.
#18
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Posted 02 November 2000 - 09:42 AM
The hemshinli armenians also lived in Mesxeti province of Georgia, but Stalin has deported them along with the Mesxetian Georgians to Uzbekistan.
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