55 replies to this topic

[MJ]

Dialogs between two countries have to be facilitated by the corresponding Ministries of Foreign Affairs, first, not by the parliamentarians.

[MJ]

So how can we, being concerned, contribute to that dialog from the outside?

[THOTH]

First - I am not so sure everyone is treated as equal. While certain minorities have risen to prominent positions I am led to understand that there is still a great deal of prejudice against those who are obviously not fully "Turk" by look/affiliation (or in some cases those who are not of clear Muslim background - as evidenced by name). Like many places such discrimination is often subtle or unsaid - but occurs just the same.

Likewise, in this day and age of cultural sensitivity, I think we can agree that to force cultural assimilation - through law (forbidding use of language, private schools, affiliation, limits on political/cultural expression etc) or through just imposing an identity - is in truth both wrong and unadvisable. However, in hindsight, it is clear that what was accomplished by Ataturk - at least in the short term (and even lasting until today) was at least in part based on such practice. While suppressing minority or ethnic aspiration is distasteful - I agree - it was reactive to the (by then failed) Ottoman approach - and was also perhaps more palatable then the Pan-Turanism of the Young Turks/CUP. Ataturk built a nation and consolidated it from the ashes of defeat (and shame). Though we can criticize now - and (as Armenians have some legitimate sour grapes regarding Ataturk's finishing the job of the CUP and squashing what was left and avoiding responsibility for such - etc) - bottom line is that what Ataturk accomplished was very impressive for the time and was quite an accomplishment. Unfortunately the negative aspects of the legacy - regarding minorities, supremacy of national myth (with its ultra paranoid defensiveness) and suppression of pluralism (to some extent) live on today - and for Turkey to move ahead - it is time for some fundamental change. IMO.

By the way Tornado - what is your ethnic and national affiliation - just curious (I thought I had pegged you - but now I'm not so sure). I am and American of 1/2 Armenian descent BTW.

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[Karine]

Halleluja Turkey!!!The world should take democratic and free-turkey as a role-model to built a similiar strong multicultural state. Amen, Armenians why don´t we go back to turkey? They´d be happy to have us in the parlament.

[THOTH]

Circassian. I am glad that you agree with my posting/views (in this case). Obviously I hold some views perhaps untypical of Armenians at large - regarding certain aspects of Turkey (and perhaps Turks). Are you able to be equally bold/innovative/independent in regards to the status quo on your “side”? After all – you are claiming to wish a dialogue and are for peace and reconciliation…can this occur without some give and take…without some movement on both sides…admissions….understanding…forgiveness…etc? I certainly think that Armenians need to listen to what various Turks are claiming in regards to the Genocide (though certainly we cannot accept the portions which are obviously poorly veiled propaganda), and we must also adjust our rhetoric to not further corner Turks – but allow them to move toward us.

That being the case I still must insist that you are incorrect regarding your claims of lack of evidence of a Genocide (perpetuated by Turks) against Armenians. This evidence is overwhelming (to disagree is IMO an admission of your lack of knowledge or of your a priori conclusions regardless of facts). The evidence exists from all sides - for instance much damning evidence has been produced by Turkey's (Ottoman's) own allies in WWI - the Germans (and to a lesser extent from the Austrians) and of course from the Turks themselves. Immediately after the war there were trials conducted by the Ottoman government where the majority of the key national and a number of regional Young Turk party members were convicted and (most were) sentenced to death for precisely the crime of genocide against the Armenians (and theft of their property which you also seem to discount). Of course there is mountains of eyewitness testimony as well as the fact that in Anatolia the Armenian nation and Armenians are no more - and every Armenian family, including my own, has its story of (organized) death marches, massacres and the like. And the pattern of such accross Anatolia in 1915 is clear. It was centrally directed and ruthlessly carried out. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the intent was the annihilation/complete destruction of the Armenians (by means of killing through massacre and starvation) and that this plan was pre-meditated and pursued with vigor. All evidence confirms this as clear as the truth of my saying that it is so.

Additionally I should mention that the term "Genocide" was first coined/used to describe the massacre of Armenians and destruction of their "nation" at the hand of the Ottoman Turks during this period. Thus the definition of the word was de facto a description of what was observed to be occurring to the Armenians. Does it not strike you then as odd that one might claim that the organized massacres and complete uprooting of Armenians in Anatolia in WWI are not Genocide? - when the word was invented to describe just these events and their impact on a people? You seem like an educated fellow - perhaps the logic of this is within your grasp. Please think on it a bit...if you really must.

Concerning your point that Turkey will move foreword regardless of the internal dynamics - I could not disagree more. If internal dynamics do not change Turkey will either stagnate and/or disintegrate (and likely turn fundamentalist). So - with that being the case - it is up to (educated and increasingly aware) Turks such as yourself to initiate change of the type that will allow your nation to take the next step. Obviously EU membership is key to this - if you think not....then I hope you are in good with your Mullah...etc. Even if not EU membership - it is the type of reform called for by EU that must occur to force your nation to modernize - (and that there is so much resistance to this is telling...IMO). Additionally - I think a part of this maturation and advancement as a nation/people is historical honesty...(you figure it out).

So two questions (plus some extra credit] for you -

1) Can/will Turkey progress while maintaining Kemalism (unmodified) as its central philosophical/political/social core? (and for extra credit - can Turkey progress with the military's role unchanged (and the continued significant/accepted presence of [your buddies] the MHP/gray wolves?)

2) Can/will Turkey progress (in the world - as a modern nation and to ever emerge out of its relative backwater status) without coming to terms with the shameful deeds of its past (primarily regarding the wholesale destruction of a nation within its midst - the Armenians (and similar treatment of the other Christian minorities) - whether or not you accept the semantic of "Genocide")? Food for thought on #2 - everyone knows you guys (CUP lead Ottoman Empire) did it, the Armenians will never forget and will never let the world forget (and its all in the archives of the West anyway silly...every necessary fact of documentation...more than enough really), and your nation is not fooling anyone (but only your own people)...think about it....)

I look foreword to your answers....and commentary.

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]