128 replies to this topic

[vava]

Vava, if those sicks life is made too easy in prison, it is not a reason to kill them, but rather change the system.

I believe they should be forced to work. I talked about that in the past. A kind of state owned compagny, all what they cost, would be pied by them, and the rest of the profit, return to the society.

So then what is more humaine? Slave labour, or the death penalty? And still, the question of incarcerating an innocent remains....

Why should WE (the law abiding public) pay to keep someone alive - an incorrigible menace to society, who has admitted his crime? It can cost up to 50K a year to feed, house, guard and maintain the health of a prisoner - not to mention their entertainment. Over 30 to 40 years: THAT'S OVER ONE AND A HALF MILLION $$$ - not including inflation, interest etc. Don't you think some poor families, or injured or unemployeed law-abiding people are more deserving? How about health-care? Federal debt? Education? There are better places to put the money than good-for-nothing, hopelessly sick individuals.

I too, have trouble with the thought of taking a life. But what are the alternatives? Domino says we should isolate them - ok. where? An island somewhere? A jail? what's it going to cost? what if there's a jailbreak? What a Breave New World it would be... ...Send them inot space, maybe?

As for the system being in dire need of some 'fixin' - I agree wholeheartedly. Here's an example of what burns me up

7 / 17 / 2002               
Convicts get special treatment
               
OTTAWA – Frederick Earl Fisk is a convicted killer.  In 1997, this known Hells Angels associate was sentenced to life in prison after he shot a man in the head seven times over the non-payment of a drug debt.  He is currently serving time in the maximum security Kent Prison in Agassiz, BC.  A few months back he began an affair with the separated wife of a Powell River man, after he received conjugal visit privileges.  Now, she is pregnant with his child.  

What happens next?  Correctional Services of Canada buys Fisk a plane ticket at taxpayers’ expense, to fly him over 400 kilometres from the prison to a Powell River hospital to see the prenatal ultrasound. When asked if this is a common occurrence, Corrections officials admitted that although it is not common “that’s not to say there couldn’t be a rare or occasional case where someone would be allowed to go.”

“Welcome to the Liberal government’s version of prisoner rehabilitation,” said Opposition Solicitor General Critic Randy White.  “I was under the impression that when you go to prison that you lose some of your privileges and freedoms, not gain them.  So far, Corrections has given this couple time to meet, a place to have sex in the prison since she can come visit him for up to four days at a time, and are now providing a convicted killer a front row seat for the miracle of birth, which is occurring with another man’s wife.”

Corrections officials would not discuss the details of the case, nor would they comment if Fisk would be flown to Powell River for the birth of the child.  “Where does it end?” asked White.  “This is a dangerous precedent that I am sure other inmates will be using in order to get out of prison.  If you let a maximum-risk offender out, how can you stop an inmate from a lower level institution from going?  I wouldn’t be surprised if he was let out to attend a baby shower….we as taxpayers have already provided them with a gift.”
- 30 -

WTF???

[gamavor]

Vava, you are right from cost efficiency point of view. On the other hand don't you think that by executing a death row inmate you eliminate a valuable customer!

[Sip]

On the other hand don't you think that by executing a death row inmate you eliminate a valuable customer!

Oh my god it all makes sense now! Gee I tell ya .... only lawyers!!!

[Accelerated]

Guys, wanna hear something really funny? LOL.

A convicted armed robber fell off his bed (bunk) onto his head, took the state government to court and won AUS$100,000 (approx US$65,000). See if I can find the article on the net....

[Accelerated]

here we go....

Prisoner who fell from bunk could have got more: minister
September 2, 2003

A prisoner believed to have been awarded more than $100,000 in compensation for injuries sustained in a fall from a cell bunk could have received four times as much had the case gone to court, the NSW Government has said.

The Justice Minister, John Hatzistergos, said a payout was made after Craig Ballard, a former Grafton Correctional Centre inmate, was injured in 1999.

He would not confirm reports the amount was in excess of $100,000, but said the bill could have been much more.

Mr Hatzistergos said: "The advice that the department [of corrective services] received from the Crown solicitor and counsel appearing for the department . . . was that in the event this matter was to proceed to court the department was exposed to a potential payout of more than four times the reported figure."

However, new Civil Liability Act legislation restricted the liability of public authorities in such cases, he said.

"Because of the tighter tests on negligence a person bringing such a claim would be less likely to be successful," he said. "And in any event even if successful, lower thresholds for damage would mean any compensation would be considerably less."

The Government was also reviewing court actions taken by inmates against the Department of Corrective Services, he said.

The Premier, Bob Carr, said the matter was a hangover from pre-reform days. "I think it's wrong that prisoners and their lawyers have been able to use the laws in this state [to gain compensation], but that's why we fixed it," he said.

"If you've assaulted or murdered a law-abiding citizen I think you forgo the right to invoke public liability to get a big cash payout and that's the law that we've now got in place."

The Opposition leader, John Brogden, said it was ludicrous the payout to Mr Ballard was double the amount available to a victim of crime. "It's not good enough that criminals get more for falling out of bed in jail than the victims of crime get for an application in NSW after a vicious crime," Mr Brogden said.

"If a person fell out of bed at home they would get nothing, so why should a jail inmate who falls out of bed in prison get $100,000?"

The NSW Senior Assistant Commissioner for Corrective Services, Ian McLean, confirmed the prisoner's bunk had not been properly bolted.

Mr Ballard reportedly suffered serious head injuries, leading to memory loss, impaired speech and dependence on medical treatment and medication.

His payout came to light a fortnight after Kevin Presland was awarded $300,000 after he sued a doctor and the Hunter Area Health Service for negligence.

Mr Presland's claim was based on his discharge from hospital while suffering alcohol-induced hallucinations, during which he stabbed a woman to death.

[Azat]

We in the US can top that one off. There was a murderer who was sentenced for life. He wanted a sex change and the state had to pay for it. Initially the state said no, but he took them to court and won. Un-Fin-Believable.

[DominO]

Vava, your justification here above is economical not moral.

Force them to work there, and the money generated from it would pay what they cost to the society.

[vava]

But again, my question is:

Is slave labour moral? Do you feel more comfortable forcing people into labour camps? The door is wide open - where are you going to draw the line? Do you honestly feel that the product of this forced labour might actually be a profitable concern? Or at the very least, self-sustaining?

[DominO]

But again, my question is:

Is slave labour moral? Do you feel more comfortable forcing people into labour camps? The door is wide open - where are you going to draw the line? Do you honestly feel that the product of this forced labour might actually be a profitable concern? Or at the very least, self-sustaining?

Vava, those criminals have harmed the society, how can you compare that to labour workers? I mean, is it not normal to work when you can, to eat, to pocess things, do things that you would want to do? I mean, they have a place to sleep, they can eat, have activities, they have libraries, even internet... things that we will pay for. So, how would it be different than one that would work to pay for those things... and the plus would be a reparation to the society, more particullary to the families that he has caused harm.

Again, I fail to see any reasons why one should be killed.

[Sip]

Domino, why would a criminal who is imprisoned for life want to work? What possible motivation could he or she have? The only way you are going to get them to work is through torture... and that, would be more inhumane than killing the bastards.

[Sasun]

Domino, why would a criminal who is imprisoned for life want to work? What possible motivation could he or she have?

Working could be a great way out of boredom.
Also, if the prisoner is ugly he may just turn beautiful (according to Armenian wisdom)

[Harut]

The main reason I would be against death penalty is the possibility of an innocent person being held responsible for something he or she didn't do.

so, how better is it to imprison someone for the rest of his/her life for something he/she didn't do.

[Harut]

Another note: Punishment exist to punish someone, in order to change him, in order to make him a better person, in order that he does not do the same mistake.

not necessarily. it can be used to teach others to not do the same thing.

you hang a robber in the middle of square, then pour gasolline and burn him...
see how many will continue to rob.

[Azat]

Harut, I am sure that may work for students who fail a class. do you think we should make an example of one or two students to make sure that no one else fails?

[Sip]

Harut, I am sure that may work for students who fail a class. do you think we should make an example of one or two students to make sure that no one else fails?

Being a moron is not a crime last time I checked.

[Azat]

Late 80's and early 90s stats(I interned for a company that use to manage jails when I was a student): Incarcerating a person in jail in CA use to cost about 22,000 per year. Killing someone on death row cost about a million dollars because the constitution in this country is written such that they have to appeal all those cases to the state supreme court even if the inmate wants to be killed from day one. So for those who want to save money it is cheaper to let them rot in jail.

Working: I think if given the opportunity to work vs sit in a small cell all day long I would take work. However death penalty people do not work in prison. they are kept in small cells and are only allowed 1 hour of daylight in a 12' by 25' courtyard to exercise or hang out.

I am against the death penalty as it does not accomplish anything. US is the only western country that has the death penalty(if I am not mistaken) yet it does not deter crime in this country when we compare crime rates to that of other countries. Also Texas and Louisiana put more people to death then all the other states combined, yet they have crime rates that are as high as california where I believe we have not had anyone killed in the last 10+ years. So how can anyone tell me that death penalty deters crime?

[gamavor]

....not to speak about the human and theological aspect which was the initial question?

Who has the right to take somebody else’s life?

The convict? Or the government? Or both? If “yes” then, put them together in jail for life without parole.

[Harut]

Who has the right to take somebody else’s life?

who has the right to take away somebody else's freedom?

[DominO]

Domino, why would a criminal who is imprisoned for life want to work? What possible motivation could he or she have? The only way you are going to get them to work is through torture... and that, would be more inhumane than killing the bastards.

Sip, 95% will probably work. No work, no internet, no some of the benefits that the usual person out of jail won't have without working.


Life conservation(with ecosystem conservation) should be above any social values we have. Killing someone, does not bring anything, when it does affect our social values.

What justification you have to kill someone? I still fail to see any justification. I mean, such an extrem action, shall have a very good reason. More extrem your action is, more stronger your argument shall be. I am happy that Quebec is the place all over North America, where the population is the most strongly opposed to death penality.




To Harut:

I would say that death penality is worst for our security, and it does not scare those psychopaths.

Why it is dangerious, now prove me wrong here.

Imagine that a sick bastard is a serial killer, and that he has already killed, he knows very well that once they catch him, he would be condemned to death. What would he do when he took hostages, and the polcice is all over him telling him to give it up? Will he release the hostages? He already know that he would be condemned to death. His sentence by his previous actions is already known for him, and it is the worst possible for this individual. What reason has this individual to release the hostages? I mean, once he release them, or they will open fire on him, or once on court, he will be sentenced to death.

On the other hand, if he is sick on the head... he won't have the death sentence. What this means, is that those sentenced to death, are those that are considered sane, and those not, the ones considered insane. Those insane are the most dangerious, because they are the ones that you can not predict their actions, you don't know if they will follow their treatments etc...

So again, once is insane, and he knows he is insane, would death penality scare him? Not at all...



Now, those for death penality, I am waiting you to bring a valid reason, an argument to the measure of the extrem action you agree with.

[nairi]

so, how better is it to imprison someone for the rest of his/her life for something he/she didn't do.

This way he/she can potentially still prove his/her innocence and get out. With death penalty, you lose this choice.

who has the right to take away somebody else's freedom?

Harut, that's a question you should be asking the criminal