Western-Armenian - Nor Hayer?

After reading a few posts regarding the so called "Western-Armenians" (I take it this mostly includes American-Armenians) I felt the need to voice my opinion and agrevation towards the "Western-Armenian" BASHING that is prevailing on this board. After visiting Armenia last summer (which was a magical experience regardless of what I am about to say) I realized that the people of Armenia are not as traditional as we (at least I) think. There is this obession with everything that is foreign -
European, American, etc. Be it music, movies, cars, internet, and even lingo. They crave for what we take for granted. And I guess that is natural to a point. But what I don't understand and accept is when some people have the nerve to accuse us - WESTERN ARMENIANS - of not being real Armenian or keeping traditions and values. As a matter of fact, I would say that there is a large mass of armenian youth here in CA that is more dedicated to Armenian issues and preservation of our cultures and traditions. This is the mass that is lacking in Armenia, that should be in Armenia but by chance have ended up on these shores.
So please don't be so quick to judge us before getting to know us well enough.

Inch lava che
Hayastantsin SpyurkaHayina Merradrum vor antarber en SpyurkaHay@ Hayastanstun
Inch lava che
Kartsem Jamanakn e mer bolor Tarberutyuner@ mi korm dnelu .
yes aveli shat Hye em kan du kam hakarak@ iy dzer tsav@ tanem Hye@ Hye@ amen meks yurovi Hye enk,
verch tvek chnayats vor sovorakan ban e Hyei hamar sakayn havata sazakan chem mer azgin.

Sulamita, what cities have you visited in Armenia? I bet you've been to Yerevan only. Yerevan is getting more westernised! Go to cities like Gyumri, Gavar etc.... And then you'll change your mind... From my experience, even though I haven't been to LA, i can say that most of the so-called Western Armenians are the same as Americans... Your way of thinking, understanding the life etc.
From reading one of your messages (about ***uality), i can say that an Armenian girl would never think this way... And it seems you judge this topic from American point of view!

Artur,

I have actually visited many different cities but, yes I have to admit that Yerevan is more advanced in this trend (like it always has been). But I was also amazed to see so many "gyughatsi" prostitues on the streets of Armenia. That gave me something to think about.

According to you "an Armenian girl would never think this way." I will never ceise to be amazed at the ability of people to filter the information that enters their system More and more Armenian girls think that way. Just because they do not have the courage to get up and express those views does not mean they think the way YOU and everybody else wants them to think. As a matter of fact, I was watching a recent interview with "Armenia's youth" on one of the local Armenian channels. Some of them even shocked me - ME, your supposed Western Armenian. He he he he ... Please, I urge you once more - DON'T JUDGE US TILL YOU GET THE CHANCE TO KNOW US. Barin @nd qez.

Sulamita

Dear Sulamita

I think I agree with you here(finally!) but I am a little confused about Western Armenian. Do you mean Western in the sense of THe West(U.S, Canada, Europe) or western in the sense of dialect (Armenians in Lebanon, Syria, Greece, Turkey etc.)? I think there is a general hostility to "akhpar" Armenians on this forum. If you are not "Hayastantsi" you somehow have sold out. How dare they, the diaspora Armenians have maintained Armenian culture despite great odds. It is because of us that our people have survived. There is also a lot of hostility to Barskahays(yes that is the way we say it!)in particular. I know this is why I am attacked right and left,even by you!(being ges hay doesn't help).

If by Western Armenians you mean Armenians from the Arab World or Turkey, I think they are very traditional and conservative, more so than us Barskahays or the Hayastanstsi hays. I think some people have this romantic image of Hayastanstsi girls all being pure flowers. Many are very wholesome and traditional. But do you really think nearly 80 years of Godless Soviet Rule would have no effect on the morales of a country? Think again.

Steve,

By Western Armenian I don't mean the dialect but the people of USA, Canada, etc.

Secondly, the Soviet years are not the reason for the lack of morals at this point in time - it was the newly found independence and the shock exposure to the West. Despite what you may think (and that is what the whole world wanted people to think) the Soviet years had so much positive influence on our country.

Sulami

Again, we have a display of West against East Armenians... g'pave yaw!
Steve, Armenians in the US and Canada are mostly the sons and daughters of Lipanahyes, Souryiahyes, etc...
I want to ask a question. Would it be too much to ban prostitution and strip clubs in Armenia?
Russia and USA are influences #1 in Armenia and they both disgust me!

Raffi Jan,

That is not true. Over 1 million Hayastantis have immigrated to USA in the past 10 yrs alone.

Sulami

Sulamita, I meant the ones born here.

I think the following passage I have translated from Hovhannes Tumanyan's "Armenia Must Speak" (v.4, p. 285, Armenia Publishing House, Yerevan, 1969) may be useful in the context of the current argument. Please, forgive my "free" translation. I have tried my best to stay maximally close to the original letter and spirity of the passage. Here it is:

"We, the Russian Armenians, usually have given the name Hayastan to Tatjkahayastan (meaning Western Armenia-MJ). Even when leaving for Tatjkahayastan from the Araratian or Shirak valleys, we say I am leaving for Armenia. I am not examining what is the reason, but this is fact.

And now, during this war, due to the circumstances I visited Armenia twice. Once I visited the valley of Alashkert, next time – Van. I met many intellectuals of Armenia, I saw the people of Armenia from close distance, and a big pain grew on my heart, as how little have I been informed on today’s Armenia – this is me, who is considered to be one of those who knows Armenia, me who has always expressed opinions, and has more or less acted for Armenia....

1917"



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 08, 2000).]

Dear Sulamita,

I think that we are often misled by the concept of the stereotypical Armenian. And even that one has been changing, and presenting itself in different manners.

Up to the beginning of the migration from Armenia we had two sources of Armenian "role models": our ancestors from that escaped the genocide and later the Middle Eastern Armenians, especially the Lebanese. With the migratory process from Armenia we had another infusion of cultural, social and political values.

This, together with the "native" cultural influences of the countries of the diaspora, is the "melting pot" of Armenians. Culture is not a static concept. Quite the contrary.

The claim of being more or less Armenian is ludicrous. It is absolutely meaningless. It may sometimes be a reaction of the uneasiness felt by newcomers. Or an inheritance of the ghetto mentality of some Middle Eastern Armenians. It could be many other things as well.

The fact is that Armenians will only exist long term in Armenia. The diaspora maintained its Armenianness in part because there was a hope to return to the homeland. This is no longer a hope, it is reality. The diaspora is condemned to disappear, especially in countries where the local culture is open. Every country with the exception of some Middle Eastern countries, most notably Syria. But even in Syria you have completely "Arabicized" Catholic Armenians.

I actually say without any opinion, what have I seen:

I'm helping coordinating the flow of foreign students into the university of Amsterdam. Last year, I met a guy with black hair, with what we call an Aryan outlook, who wore a cross. So I asked that guy you must be an orthodox christian? That guy told me, that he is upset about my question, he is catholic. I told him where is he come from he said from Europe? I told him what is your nationality? He said American. I asked his name, and guess it was Armenian, so I told him I know many Armenians, why you doesn't say that you are Armenian? He told me it's not the Dutch business, I told him I'm Iranian, he said I hate you, I told him you are defenitely not from Armenia? He said he hates the Armenians in Armenia. He said We European(don't know whom he meant) got discriminated in USA becuase of those Iranians and Hayastantsi Armenians who unfortunately look like us! I told him I want to learn Armenian, he said is your business. I said maybe we can practice, he said he onley will speak English with me. That was a sad joke: all the Dutch girls told me guess what why that "Turk" is so strange? I told them he is not Turk, he is someone who tries to be an European/American to impress you girls. They said where is he really from? I said, if he doesn't know it himself, why should I know it!

ofcourse I didn't mean to generalize a group

I think the search for "true" Armenian identity has a long history. Each local geographic group of Armenians has historically looked down at other groups, and has had some claim of the type “we are the true Armenians.” Even in the modern Armenian landscape, you can come across arguments who the real Armenian is. For example, you can come across with arguments whether the Karabaghtsi are real Armenians or not, whether Gorisetsi are real Armenians or not, whether Polcahay are real Armenians or not. There is even competition between Martunetsi and Vardenictsi, when these are just neighboring regions in Armenia.

I think these conversations are resulted from the absence of a unifying state and concept throughout the history, and the new Republic of Armenia has not been around for long enough as to inject that missing mentality.

MJ jan, which search to true Armenian identity are you talking about? That guy(who I was talking about) was ashamed of his Armenian background and wanted to be a westerner.

As for the Unifying state: The political boundaries are not the same as the cultural, religious or lingual boundaries, nor is it very likely and sencefull to create homogeneous states, so I will say cultural identity is built by a people not a state, so it is a wrong approach wanting an unifying state in order to preserve cultural identity, vice versa is more logical and more likely.
And with all due respect to the state of Armenia, but that state doesn't represent the whole Armenian cultural herritage, the traditional Armenian herritage spreads in more states! This is another reason why the Armenians should rely on themeselves as civil society of the society where they are living it, to can preserve their cultural and (sub-)ethnic identity. The Armenian Iranians have proven that this is to be done


[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited September 03, 2000).]

Iranyar, I guess this is one of the issues where our opinions may radically defer.

BJ, please tell me which issue? are supporting acculturalization or saying that it is inevitable?

Dear Iranyar,

I am retracting my activities at the Forum due to the fact that my vacation is over, and I am immersed in my everyday responsibilities, but since you have addressed your question to me, I am replying out of courtesy.

My comments were related to culture vs. statehood. I have nothing to say about the Armenian guy you mentioned in your posting.

I do recognize that in their origin, states are birth-children of shaped and distinct cultures, as a rule. However, I think preservation of cultures requires special political, and economical prerequisites, which may in my view be provided only by a statehood.

Indeed the Iranian Armenian community is a very unique entity. It is true that Iranian Armenians have successfully preserved the language, traditions, etc. I am not aware of any other Armenian communities who could compare with the Iranian Armenians in the issue of preservation of the ethnic identity and heritage. But I think heritage and culture are different things. Forgive my ignorance if you may, I am not aware of creation of any cultural values by in large by the Iranian Armenian community (as well as many others). In particular, while not denying the contributions of individual Iranian Armenians outside the framework of Iranian Armenian community, I am not aware of Iranian Armenian literature, music, architecture, science, technology, etc as a phenomenon. I thing these are the attributes of national culture, if any, and I am strongly convinced that only the national statehood provides fertile ground for their preservation and advancement. While clearly identities may exist outside such framework, such existence doesn’t necessarily manifest culture or give birth to cultural values. For example, I cannot imagine Hellenic culture outside the subsequent Greek Kingdoms. I cannot think of Oriental culture outside the framework of Japan, China, etc.

I also think that a preservation for the sake of just preservation is not of high value. I think we don’t exist for the sake of curiosity. Preservation should serve a greater purpose. I don’t think the statehood is that great purpose, but I think it is the only vehicle leading towards that great purpose, whatever it may be defined to be.

Dear MJ.

The Armenian Iranians, have allways been an integrated part of the Iranian society, despite the fact that they differed in religous sence from most of the other ethnic groups they have played a major role in the political developement of Iran. Most of theIranian Safavide ambassadors and trade delegations were Armenians. The Armenians played a major role in the constitutional revolution, and the Armenian intellectuals sided Mosaddegh national mfront against the dictatorsip of the latter Shah. In the War with Iraq also we gave many Armenian martyrs.

And indeed the Armenian Iranians have developed a unique architecture in Iran, which is different than in Hayastan. And about the music: many great Iranian musicians are Armenians and BTW the Armenian and other music from Iran differ not much. But in Fereidan district they have their unique rythms and songs which are played during the ceremonies. The Armenian Iranians even have a pilgrimmage place in Zarneh in Fereidan district which is especial for the Armenian Iranians. Actually mr. Leon Minassian from Esfahan has written a lot about Armenian Iranians and he has written also a dictionary and book about the Freidani armenians which is very valuable.
And did you know that the first printed published book (not much later than the first printed book in the world) in the middle East and Caucasia was published in the Vank church of Esfahan.
I try to provide pictures from the Armenian Iranin clothings architecture and celebrations

Dear Iranyar,

My sincere gratitude for the very pleasant information! I always like learning new things.

A lot of what you said is new to me, since I have never studied the History of Iranian Armenian community. I am really glad that non-Armenians recognize and bring to Armenian’s attention the fact of Iranian Armenian community’s contribution in the overall Iranian culture.

Ironically enough, Armenian’s have always participated in host country’s revolutions. As a rule, we have always tasted the negative consequences of the participation. I am glad the participation in the Iranian constitutional revolution is an exception in this sense.

I can only feel proud that the Iranian Armenian community is an integral part of the Iranian culture. And in my view, it doesn’t undermine at all their Armenian identity. I think that Armenians all around the world have to be loyal citizens of their respective countries.

And no, I have not known the story about the first printed published book in the Middle East and Caucasus being published in the Vank church. But sure, it cannot be the first published printed Armenian book, since we have learned that that the first Armenian published book has been accomplished by Hagob Meghapart in Venice, I think (sorry, have forgotten the date).

P.S. Apparently, while preserving their ethnic and ethnographic identity, Iranian Armenians indeed belong to the Iranian culture.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 08, 2000).]

Dear Iranyar joon,

I think the Armenian community in Iran has a perfect balance of being integrated with the mainstream culture, yet preserving its identity at the same time. I think maybe only Armenians from Lebanon come close to this. Usually if Armenians become to integrated they disappear, such as in Poland.

I agree with you with the music. There is a great deal of similarity in the rhythms and scales of Persian and Armenian music. By the way, were you in Teheran? If you were, is Souren's Restaurant still around? I have such good memories of childhood with that restaurant! Che khoshmaze bud kuku sabzi!