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THE ARMENIAN FLOOD


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#1 Arpa

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 09:26 AM

I recently came across this sentence in "The Greek Myths", Volume One, by Robert Graves (Penguin, 1st ed., 1955),
Chapter 38, Deucalion's Flood:
quote:
4. Xisuthros was the hero of the Armenian Flood legend, recorded by Berosus, and his ark came to rest on Mount Ararat.
Who can tell me more about this?
Hope to hear from you soon,
Nairi

I don't know anything about this, I wish someone could expand on it. However I know without the shadow of a doubt that the Flood Story is of Amenian origin and that Noah is Armenian. His original name was Nor Mard which in time, going from from imposter/plagiarizer to another ended up as Nuh/Noah. As to the Armenian version of the name "Noy" there are many dialects, the Zeitun one in particular where the "R" becomes "Y". They would pronounce "barev" as "bayev". I know this first hand yet you may want to check Ajarian and see how zeytuntsis pronounce the R.

If the legend was not of Armenian origin why would it happen in the Armenian highlands and come to rest on the Sacred Armenian mountain Masis/Ararat. That Jew goofed. He lapsed and rested the ark on mount Ararat instead of Mount Sinai. But then again, he was not so tupid, there are no floods in the Sinai Desert while flood in the Armenian Mesopotamia (Haykakan Mijagetq, between Tigris and Euphrates)is a yearly event.

It all started this way.

Once there was a wealthy merchant by the name of Karapet Partamian (Karapet=Caravan Master, Partam=wealthy). He travelled far and near, north and south, east and west. His caravan was forty miles long (qarsun mghon) and his wealth would fill forty warehouses. As was the custom of the time Partam Karapet had a large entourage of mule drivers, cooks, armed guards and of course an entertainer to help those long night while away. The entertainer was in fact a troubadur, he was a poet, a singer and story teller. His name was Gusan Anachya as he was blind. He composed and sang many delightful songs and his fame was known all the way from Kiev to Khartoum, from Macedonia to Malaysia.

Among his songs the most popular was the Legend of the Flood. It was most legendary and credible since it invoked the magic number forty/qarsun at every turn of verse.

Here is what he sang. To borrow a line or two from Tumanian's Tmkaberdi Aroum@, in quotes, the rest is mine;

"Hey baronner, akanj areq
Taparakan ashughin.
Sirun tiknayq, jahel tgherq,
Lav oush dreq im khaghin".


Qarsun or teghats, qarsun gisher tats.
Qarsun gyugh qaghaq juri tak mnats,
Qarsun toun tnak avervets hatak,
Qarsun tariner, avagh himnhatak.

Mer Eprat@ barkatsel
Ev mer Tigris khrovel
Irar dem mart en kanchoum
Irar bazouk Severoum

Eprati jurn hasel Taron
Tigrisn kasel voch heroun,
Mer Nor Mard@ sarsapahar
Ardyoq pakhchi ler ou sar?

Pakhchil chi vayel qajin,
Jrin dem krvel ir vayelqin,
Mi mets vitkhari nav shinal
Ayspes miayn karogh zpal.

Jurer@ ekan irar khpatsiin,
Aliq@ elan mi ler tsevatsin,
Ararat Masis mi mets heghegh tak
Bayts mer Nor Mard@ jri vra anvtang.

Andzrevn dadarets, areg@ shoghats,
Mer mets navak@ i Masis hangadz,
Nor Mardn @ntanyoq azat u andorr,
Var ekav berann aghotq i Vantur (Vanadur).

Inchpes Masisi bartsen var pit gar an,
Khaghogi shyugh@ brnel ibr paran
Isk ayd khaghoghi argasiqn anush
Khmorel khmel minj darna an-ush.

#2 nairi

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 09:47 AM

Dear Arpa, thank you so much for your insight. It was interesting reading and perhaps you're right. But don't forget that Armenians are not the only ones to believe in a flood legend. In Mesopotamia itself, the Sumerians and Babylonians and further away in the Anatolia, the Hittitians and Hurrians all had a flood legend and many believed that the Ark landed on Mount Ararat. The only reason I can find for Mount Ararat is because it's the most protruding mountain in that area. Therefore it's not surprising that many peoples, even living as far as Syria and Tabriz, had legends about Ararat.

I really enjoyed the song. Thanks for sharing that.

Nairi

#3 Arpa

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 10:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
Dear Arpa, thank you so much for your insight. It was interesting reading and perhaps you're right. But don't forget that Armenians are not the only ones to believe in a flood legend. In Mesopotamia itself, the Sumerians and Babylonians and further away in the Anatolia, the Hittitians and Hurrians all had a flood legend and many believed that the Ark landed on Mount Ararat. The only reason I can find for Mount Ararat is because it's the most protruding mountain in that area. Therefore it's not surprising that many peoples, even living as far as Syria and Tabriz, had legends about Ararat.

I really enjoyed the song. Thanks for sharing that.

Nairi

You're welcome.
That is exactly my point. Every people of the world have some kind of a flood story as floods are not a sole property of certain people. Look at what is happening in Prague now. People composed legends and fables about supernatural powers of Mother Nature. People as far and divergent as the aboriginies of Australia, the Chinese,and even the Native Americans have flood stories.
My point, if I can get this across if it were the last thing, is all those people have their stories why then we the natives of the Ararat Valley have to borrow a bastardized story from an alien culture while we know that the story was first plagiarized from us.
Yes, many people have stories about floods but Jews would be the last of such people as their land is not conducive to to it. Whether they heard it from us first or the Babylonians is immaterial, it is that we have thrown away all of our folklore and heritage to adopt their stupid (not eve original, none of them) legends as "gopel truth".
It is about time we wrote our own "gospel" with the purpose of strengthening our folklore and reclaim our bastardized identity.

PS. We could curtail our so called dialogue with intransigent bastardizers of our history and folklore and instead concentrate on and enrich our own. Nobody assigned us to teach the Turk good manners or the Jew to be truthful.

#4 sen_Vahan

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 10:14 AM

I remember from the high school when I red abour Babelon's flood story.. The ark hanged on mountain Nizir (If I am not mistaken) and the family of the king was the only one to survive.(from Enuma Elish)
Arpa,Nairi, help me if I am mistaken.
And it's going without saying that the story was taken by jews because of reasons mentioned by Arpa. By the way, many things in Bible are taken from various sources.
Vahan

#5 nairi

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 11:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
It is about time we wrote our own "gospel" with the purpose of strengthening our folklore and reclaim our bastardized identity.

Arpa jan, don't you think this is a little exaggerated? Honestly, how bastardized is our culture? We have our own music, dance, literature and folklore, not to mention alphabet and architecture. Okay, so we adapted ourselves throughout the centuries, borrowed things when we couldn't invent them and contributed innovations whenever we could. Are you saying we should give up everything in the modern world and isolate ourselves to rewrite a national theme? How about evolving what we already have? Wouldn't that be easier?

Nairi

#6 Arpa

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 11:49 PM

Originally posted by nairi:
quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
[qb]It is about time we wrote our own "gospel" with the purpose of strengthening our folklore and reclaim our bastardized identity.


Arpa jan, don't you think this is a little exaggerated? Honestly, how bastardized is our culture? We have our own music, dance, literature and folklore, not to mention alphabet and architecture. Okay, so we adapted ourselves throughout the centuries, borrowed things when we couldn't invent them and contributed innovations whenever we could. Are you saying we should give up everything in the modern world and isolate ourselves to rewrite a national theme? How about evolving what we already have? Wouldn't that be easier?
Nairi
[/QUOTE]


Exaggerated? Of course!!
My whole article was "exaggerated".
As to giving back everything we have borrowed. We will do that when decide to leave this world forever. Or when they give us back everything they borrowed from us.
As to "bastardization of our heritage and identity", I think you may have overlooked the main point. Which was, as the story of the flood is originally Armenian we forgot the whole thing once we discovered that idiotic Book that claims everything and every legend to be their own. We know it is not. Whether the Flood is really an originally Armenian story or not is of little import as the fact that we forgot and insulted all our gods for the sake of that alien one, who has other things and other people in mind. What was the year? 301 AD? We not only forgot and insulted our own culture and heritage but we replaced it with that alien heap of fables so much so that we even tried to claim that we are the progeny of that idiot Noah in the hopes of finding favor with the Chosen People. That is the "bastardization" of our heritage. And our benefits can be counted in the palm of half a hand.

#7 nairi

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 12:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
that idiotic Book that claims everything and every legend to be their own.

This is simply not true, Arpa. Everyone, including the Jews, knows that the Bible is based on existing myths, from Mesopotamian to Hittitian and Greek.

Armenians as a nation never had their own legends. From the very beginning they borrowed and based whatever legend came to be called Armenian on Hittitian, Hayasa, Armen, Urartian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek and Roman myths. Then came a time of monotheist religion, which spread, not only in Armenia, but all over the Middle-East. Then came a time of atheism. Now we're headed towards another era with another belief. We are merely human beings Arpa, no more special or chosen than anyone else. Our culture, like everyone else's, is based on our direct environment. The Jews happened to live in our environment. We influenced them, they influenced us. Some of their powerful lobbies deny our existence today, some of them don't. But no educated person denies that influence is reciprocal. How could it be one-way when we're all living next to each other?

Nairi

#8 Rubo

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 01:02 PM

This is simply not true, Arpa. Everyone, including the Jews, knows that the Bible is based on existing myths, from Mesopotamian to Hittitian and Greek.

I agree furthermore Jews copied lot of Egyptian rites and ideas.
Regards

#9 Arpa

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 01:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
that idiotic Book that claims everything and every legend to be their own.

This is simply not true, Arpa. Everyone, including the Jews, knows that the Bible is based on existing myths, from Mesopotamian to Hittitian and Greek.

Armenians as a nation never had their own legends. From the very beginning they borrowed and based whatever legend came to be called Armenian on Hittitian, Hayasa, Armen, Urartian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek and Roman myths. Then came a time of monotheist religion, which spread, not only in Armenia, but all over the Middle-East. Then came a time of atheism. Now we're headed towards another era with another belief. We are merely human beings Arpa, no more special or chosen than anyone else. Our culture, like everyone else's, is based on our direct environment. The Jews happened to live in our environment. We influenced them, they influenced us. Some of their powerful lobbies deny our existence today, some of them don't. But no educated person denies that influence is reciprocal. How could it be one-way when we're all living next to each other?

Nairi


Why is then that many of us believe it as if were the "word of God"?
So much so that many actually believe that we are the 13th Tribe. There is at last one on this forum who is still trying to link us with them. Of course we had relationship with many of our naighbors but as far as those people are concerned our contact would be minimal and coincidental since there were and still are so many other people between us and them. We have had more intimate contact and intercourse (take that word the way you will) with the Turk then we have ever had with the Jews, yet there are those who would like to make us "first cousins". We are not none of our culture and heritage coincide with theirs, among others, we speak an IndoRuropean language, they don't.
Let me get off this.

We certainly had our legends. I'm sure you are familiar with Ara and Shamiram, Tork Angghya and others. You also know why we call the Milky Way Galaxy "Hart Goghi Janaparh".
Many of our original legends and mythology was lost thanks to that "butcher" some call Lousavorich. What was saved in oral history was severely modified to comply with our new found (alien) culture.
The story of the Flood was modified an adapted to the new legend. Not only that, our entire being and origin was adapted to ascribe it to Noah's heritage.
The origianl version of Hayk and Bel was that Hayk was the king of Armenia and Bel invaded our lands and was punished. The second version which was modified after we began reading that "book" became that Hayk was "defeated" in Babylonia and was expelled by Bel, he took his people and migrated to the Highlands. So, what else is new? Armenians being defeated and leaving their ancestral lands and moving out. This version was to comply with the Story of Abraham who migrated from Ur to the "Promised Land". Once again ro adapt our myhtology to comply with the new one. And ever since we are being defeated and foirced out of our ancestral lands. Let's get back to hour legends and nythology so we will never be defeated and forced to leave.

We know that Armenians did not migrate and neither did Hayk come from somewhere else. He and his ancestors had lived on those lands from time immemorial. Is there a harm in all this? Ask Ali, he will tell you that Armenians migrated/invaded those lands, stole it from the Hittites and the Urartians and now it is their turn to return the favor.
Just as legends are based on historical facts history is based on legends as well. If we assert that we descended from the Biblical Noah then our history will only be 2500 years old. If we insist that Hayk came from Babylonia our history will be even shorter.

#10 nairi

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 02:03 PM

I guess we're looking at it from different perspectives. I see where you're coming from. I have moments of frustration as well when I think of how we are allowing ourselves to be influenced, as we speak, by for instance Russian or Western culture. Perhaps you want to set up a political party. I encourage you to do so.

Nairi

#11 Rubo

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 02:10 PM

We certainly had our legends. I'm sure you are familiar with Ara and Shamiram, Tork Angghya and others. You also know why we call the Milky Way Galaxy "Hart Goghi Janaparh".


Very accurate furthermore every culture does have their folklore and Armenia is no exception. The flood was a historical fact which scientists recently proved that indeed such flood did happened. It happened much earlier era hence Jewish references to the flood dates before Abraham and other Israelites.Jews are definitely newcomers to flood business

#12 Rubo

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 02:33 PM

Mosjan, would you excuse me of showing my kids these silly creatures? They are glued to the monitor with big smiles.

#13 Rubo

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Posted 14 August 2002 - 03:40 PM

Dear Arpa and Nairi not to take away from the discussion by my silliness here is something that might iterest both of you.

Canadian Geologist Finds Desert Proof Of Great Flood
[Original headline: Manitoba geologist thinks he's found evidence of Noah's flood]
WINNIPEG (CP) - The Arabian desert, one of the driest places on Earth, may seem an odd place to look for evidence of what's supposed to have been the greatest deluge in history.
But a Manitoba geologist thinks he and an international team have found scientific proof that a nearby area was flooded, at the end of the last ice age, as the story of Noah and other ancient tales have suggested.

"This isn't 40 days and 40 nights of rain as the scriptures would describe Noah's flood but it certainly is one that would have impacted on people and their settlements," says Jim Teller of the University of Manitoba.

The rest of the team includes Nick Lancaster of the Desert Research Institute in Nevada, Ken Glennie of the University of Aberdeen and Ashok Singhvi of he Physical Research Lab in India.

Their research was presented recently at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America in Reno, Nevada, and published in the scientific journal Quaternary International.

Two American scientists, William Ryan and Walter Pitman, have already suggested the flooding of the Black Sea after the last ice age may have been the source of the flood stories that appear in early recorded history.

"There does seem to be some pretty widespread evidence for some huge inundation in that general area," says Prof. Al Wolters, who teaches religion, theology and classical languages at Redeemer College in Ancaster, Ont.

"In principle I think it's quite possible that this theory, like the one of Pitman and Ryan, may be on the track of something."

The flood was certainly a catastrophe of epic proportions according to the New King James Version of the Bible.

"And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

"The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward (about seven metres) and the mountains were covered."

Scholars have long known of other, similar tales from the Middle East. The Epic of Gilgamesh is perhaps the most well-known but not the earliest.

That honour likely belongs to the story of Ziusudra, a Sumerian king who boarded a barge to escape a flood of the Euphrates River.

It has been speculated the flood of Noah - said to have built an ark to save his family and every species on Earth - was also just a flood of the Euphrates or Tigris, two rivers at the crossroads of recorded history.

But Teller suggests it was a product of the great melt at the end of the last ice age, a few thousand years earlier, and the story was remembered.

For 100,000 years or more, kilometres-thick sheets of ice had covered much of the globe. So much water was withdrawn from the oceans they were about 120 metres lower than today.

The melt started about 20,000 years ago and took thousands of years to finish, with another mini ice age along the way. It's during this process Teller says the Persian Gulf was reflooded.

The theory had its genesis around an Arabian desert campfire in the fall of 1998, where he and the other geologists were resting under a starry sky after a day probing the origins of sand dunes.

Some of the dunes were found to contain the remnants of tiny shelled marine organisms such as foraminifera and clams, apparently blown from the floor of the Gulf after it became dry during the last ice age.

"The Persian Gulf area, which is only a shallow basin - it's only 100 metres deep - was completely dry during the last ice age," says Teller.

"Waters from the melting ice at the end of the last ice age went back to the ocean. Ocean levels went up more than 100 metres and the Persian Gulf Basin got refilled by water over 1,000 years."

The tiny marine animals do not show up in dunes after the Gulf was filled.

One thousand years is a lot longer than 40 days and 40 nights but at times Teller says the water moved quite quickly over the flat plain, sometimes at a rate of more than a kilometre a year.

At that speed, he suggests the returning water would have driven the inhabitants of the area from settlements and likely have been viewed at the time as a catastrophic event, the kind to be recorded for posterity.

"Stories must have been told and passed down through time."

The Epic of Gilgamesh, which also describes a flood like that of Genesis, was found inscribed in cuneiform script on clay tablets at the northwestern end of the Persian Gulf. Columbia University marine geologists Ryan and Pitman wrote a book outlining their theory that about 7,500 years ago, water from the Mediterranean spilled over into the Black Sea, then a freshwater lake, raising levels 15 centimetres a day and flooding surrounding settlements.


#14 Azat

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 03:37 PM

Edit note: link removed

[ August 16, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Azat ]

#15 MosJan

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:49 AM

NOAH’S ARCH TO BE BUILT IN ARMENIA

*

Charity Disabled Hasmik-Lilit, a closed shared company, has come up with the idea to build Noah’s Arch, an exact copy of the Bible description. It will be located not far from Argishtikhlini, in Armavir region of Armenia.

The idea is backed by a number of political figures. A tender has been announced for the project promising 500 thousand drams for the first place bid, 350 thousand for the second and 200 thousand for the third.

The initiators say they aim to preserve the historical significance of the Arch. According to the idea, the exact size and outer look of the original as described in the Bible will be kept to. The initiators aim to build a hotel, trade house and a green zone nearby the Arch.




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