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Halacoglus "study" Finally Out?


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#41 bellthecat

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ May 12 2004, 09:07 PM)
He says, I am ashamed of being a Turk. What is it that is not absolute about it? Such a person merits nothing, other than the order of "clown"...

I suppose, in fairness to him, his words might not be being quoted exactly, or since English is not (I presume) his native language he might not be correctly saying what he is trying to express. But, if that is not the case, then I agree with you.

#42 Sasun

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ May 12 2004, 05:07 PM)
He says, I am ashamed of being a Turk. What is it that is not absolute about it? Such a person merits nothing, other than the order of "clown"...

If you pick that sentence alone it is a foolish thing to say, that is being ashamed for no reason. But it is pretty straightforward in the right context it makes a lot of sense. I don't know how others would feel, but in my eyes his statement only enhances the image of collective Turkishness as a group who is capable of rectifying its mistakes and improving.

#43 Armat

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ May 12 2004, 12:06 PM)
This is going to sound kookoo, but if you are who I think you are, you once wrote me a poem. biggrin.gif

Yes, that person was I and I still disagree with you however TB and Sasun expressed the gist of what I was trying to convey. Turkish musician acquaintance of mine named Mamul or Mamuth (Can't remember exactly)expressed the same sentiments and he was not over the top or wanting attention. He was simply sincere in his feelings.
I do believe there are many Turks out there who have similar sentiments and I would not think of them as pathetic human beings or Turkish trash. I know you referred him spicifically however does it logically fallow that any Turk expressing shame (AG context) must be pathetic, Turkish trash or have an emotional problem. Have we lost faith in humanity?

Edited by Armat, 12 May 2004 - 10:12 PM.


#44 Stormig

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 12:57 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ May 12 2004, 10:09 PM)
Was the invasion of Anatolia by the Turks and the totality of their subsequent actions all the way through today a net positive or a net negative for humanity, and how does that net contribution compare with other nations? I ask this not with prejudice about the answer, but as a tool for reflection.

TB, I am astounded you can give one person's sentence so much space to manoeuvre in, yet a piece of chaos is asked to be summed up in one sentence. In my view there can be no simplistic answer to your question any more than there can be one to a similar question asking whether Europeans' exploration and exploits of the Americas or Africa would be a net positive or a net negative in view of where the world is today.
But here goes anyway. I will not cater to romanticism. All I can say is that if one were to take the Americas alongside, there would be two cases at hand where genocides took place (the smitten civilisations of Mexico and Peru come to mind), with the Armenians' and Pontic Greeks' taking place later. That one took place later is hardly a piece of flattery to anybody, especially not the perpetrator, since there were several centuries apart, whereas most Turkish apologists will try to point out the "fact" of oh how good it was that minorities had "survived' under the Ottomans for so long, especially since you had nothing happening to the Armenians under Persian rule for so many centuries. In neither case will I go into looking for "blessings" of time and opportunity. However, yes, that so many millions of inhabitants of Anatolia were assimilated by Turks to the point where they were so few that it was possible to commit genocide upon them, erase their memory from their land, even deny their history and spit on them, is as great a shame, stain, as a nation can possibly have upon themselves and a great loss for the world, history, culture, you name it.

And I don't at all understand how it follows after all I've said that I am saying any Turk that has conscience, honesty, and a figment of modesty to apologise to the Armenian people for the crimes of their ancestors and the CUP is pathetic. I get the feeling nobody is reading what I write carefully. None of you here disagreeing with me pay heed to the interchanging of Turk with German, or Israeli, or Hutu, or what have you - I just don't sense that anyone is doing it. Please spare a minute to each and ask yourselves if it doesn't sound wooden to your ears. Instead you go off on about ballerinas (learning a skill - positive) and such or that I am taking things out of context. I'm sorry, I don't take things out of context, I'm not buying this person or the likes of him or what he says nor what he claims to stand for, nor the approach of any of your acquaintances, and I am not to blame for more time than deserved being spent on this trash. This is an insult to the many more Turks (or people of whatever other nationality) who can express their sincerity and apologies without sounding like a precise c*nt. If I at all had the predisposition to believe in conspiracy theories, then I would have questioned this person like Arpa. If English was his problem, he should have got himself a translator. Better is deserved than of him.

#45 axel

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 02:12 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ May 12 2004, 10:09 PM)
A little shame is long overdue in the consciousness of many of the nations.


There is a somewhat related idea expressed in one of Tarkovsky's movie something in the vein of "shame will save humanity".
The problem is that in order to feel ashamed, one has to have the notion of what honor is.

Edited by axel, 13 May 2004 - 02:12 AM.


#46 Twilight Bark

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 02:12 AM

QUOTE (Stormig @ May 12 2004, 10:57 PM)
TB, I am astounded you can give one person's sentence so much space to manoeuvre in, yet a piece of chaos is asked to be summed up in one sentence.
.
.
.

Stormig,
It is in fact quite reasonable to give "more maneuvre" to the statement by a single person than the total sum of millions of actions over a thousand years. It is called "the law of large numbers". The latter at this point should be answerable very precisely, and certainly as a "was it a net positive/negative" question, while a statement by one person does need to be treated with less dogmatism than you seem to be displaying. In any event, since I think most major nations do need to feel ashamed before they can justifiably feel clean and proud, I don't have any problem with what you describe as pathetic. I have no idea if he is indeed a pathetic person with personality problems. I also don't know if he is sincere. But the nature of the person making the statement is not really the point. We should be discussing the statement. As it stands, the statement is not out of place when you replace it with German (who did go through the shame part for the Jewish genocide) or Hutu either. Unjustified national pride has blinded enough people long enough. The path between a bully nation and justified pride passes through the painful part involving shame. They cannot go from here to there without feeling like shit first, if not for the "actions" (done by "earlier generations"), then for being willing dupes for a ridiculuous collection of tales with repugnant values (main one being the taking of pride in domination and slaughter). And the "justified pride" that would follow would have no resemblance in its nature to the pride preceding the shame.

As for the rest of your argument, I think they should not be addressed to me. I have not implied anything about your stance concerning apologies, conscience etc.

As a final note, a contemporary Turk cannot disassociate himself/herself from a shameful (i.e. negative) legacy to the extent of eliminating (or even diminishing) shame and simultaneously lay claim to the "positive" legacy (e.g. the ownership of the land). That would be a little too convenient to be called sincere. It would be more along the lines of "Alright I admit it. I'm sorry. Satisfied? Now get out of my hair". True evolution takes more than that.

#47 Stormig

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 03:44 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ May 13 2004, 08:12 AM)
Stormig,
It is in fact quite reasonable to give "more maneuvre" to the statement by a single person than the total sum of millions of actions over a thousand years. It is called "the law of large numbers". The latter at this point should be answerable very precisely, and certainly as a "was it a net positive/negative" question, while a statement by one person does need to be treated with less dogmatism than you seem to be displaying. In any event, since I think most major nations do need to feel ashamed before they can justifiably feel clean and proud, I don't have any problem with what you describe as pathetic. I have no idea if he is indeed a pathetic person with personality problems. I also don't know if he is sincere. But the nature of the person making the statement is not really the point. We should be discussing the statement. As it stands, the statement is not out of place when you replace it with German (who did go through the shame part for the Jewish genocide) or Hutu either. Unjustified national pride has blinded enough people long enough. The path between a bully nation and justified pride passes through the painful part involving shame. They cannot go from here to there without feeling like shit first, if not for the "actions" (done by "earlier generations"), then for being willing dupes for a ridiculuous collection of tales with repugnant values (main one being the taking of pride in domination and slaughter). And the "justified pride" that would follow would have no resemblance in its nature to the pride preceding the shame.

As for the rest of your argument, I think they should not be addressed to me. I have not implied anything about your stance concerning apologies, conscience etc.

As a final note, a contemporary Turk cannot disassociate himself/herself from a shameful (i.e. negative) legacy to the extent of eliminating (or even diminishing) shame and simultaneously lay claim to the "positive" legacy (e.g. the ownership of the land). That would be a little too convenient to be called sincere. It would be more along the lines of "Alright I admit it. I'm sorry. Satisfied? Now get out of my hair". True evolution takes more than that.

Well, then, like I said, it only goes to show I really have nothing more to say, wary of pathetic Germans, pathetic Croats, pathetic Israelis, pathetic Chomskies (the alternate universe ones I just made up), the lot of the charlatans, who perform in front of their audiences. And, yes, the rest of my post was addressed to Armat whom, try as I may, I can't seem to communicate my points to.

#48 Armat

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:30 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ May 13 2004, 02:12 AM)
The path between a bully nation and justified pride passes through the painful part involving shame. They cannot go from here to there without feeling like shit first, if not for the "actions" (done by "earlier generations"), then for being willing dupes for a ridiculuous collection of tales with repugnant values (main one being the taking of pride in domination and slaughter). And the "justified pride" that would follow would have no resemblance in its nature to the pride preceding the shame.

Well articulated!The heart of this argument.

Stormig
Acknowledgment of AG by the Turks, which takes the path of healing a nation and redemption, cannot go through shortcuts. Frankly I am pessimistic if ever Turkey would acknowledge the AG officially since perhaps that would bring shame to itself and honestly besides politics it is this factor alone is enough motivation to keep the jar tightly closed and this is perhaps more important then politics since this touches the collective psyche, attitudes of the Turks at large.

#49 Twilight Bark

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 10:42 AM

A few more bits to add clarification:

* Dragging individual Turks in front of Armenian audiences for "performance" would indeed be grossly unfair and in extremely poor taste, and I don't think anyone here has suggested that. I don't think that was ever the point of the discussion.

* Being ashamed of one's group identity (Turkish, German, Hutu, etc.) is not the same as being ashamed of oneself. It is the first step to disassociate from what that group identity stands for (and not the "shell" of that identity itself), and to synthesize a new version of that identity. The individual shame about the evils of its collective should in fact be a source of pride, as it involves a great amount of intellectual and moral dexterity, and "cleansing" oneself of any implied support for the evil aspects of what the identity stood for. The reason such a "deep surgery" is needed lies in the fact that the glorification of conquests, wars and dominating others has become an integral part of Turkish identity. So again, the shame I talked about is not "being ashamed of oneself". And again, the ultimate purpose should be the construction of a new identity that the New Turks could be justly proud of, without reference to wars, conquests, and domination.

#50 bellthecat

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:28 PM

Don't know if this should be here or in the "for Sip" thread.


Washington Post
May 8-9 2004

A Sorry State
The Artlessness Of the Apology

By Tony Judt


We live in the age of the public apology. When a crisis occurs or a
scandal is exposed, the first instinct of many public figures today
is to erupt in a torrent of remorse. From Bill Clinton's 1992 apology
to his wife for his sexual infidelities to the notorious 1998 Oprah
Winfrey show where guests apologized to people they had "hurt,"
saying sorry has become all the rage. On the Oprah show experts even
offered tips on how to apologize. "Don't be afraid to apologize," the
incomparable Ms. Winfrey advised on her Web site. "Apologizing to
your child doesn't mean you lose."

President Bush could have used a few such tips this month. Faced with
the evidence of serial abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers,
Bush condemned, decried and regretted; but he didn't apologize for a
week. In a world where victims -- real or presumptive -- demand not
merely justice but penitence, the president's reluctance became a
political issue in its own right.

For the second time this spring the Bush administration was caught up
in the media's passion for public contrition. In late March the
public commission investigating security lapses before 9/11 was
transformed into a daytime soap opera. Would Condoleezza Rice follow
Richard Clarke's cue and offer a telegenic "sorry" for letting it all
happen? How would she "look" if she did offer an all-points apology?
And -- of even greater media interest -- how would she look if she
didn't?

Rice is a mediocre national security adviser but a good tactician. By
refusing to express remorse ("I don't think that there is anyone who
is not sorry for the terrible loss that these families endured," she
told Ed Bradley on "60 Minutes," but she added, "the best thing that
we can do for the future of this country is to focus on those who did
this to us."), she paid a small price in the congeniality stakes
while keeping journalists' attention firmly diverted from anything
that mattered. It was Rice's present sentiments, rather than her past
actions, that held center stage. We used to pay attention to what
public figures did and what they thought. Now all we really want to
know is how they feel. And everyone, even the president,
enthusiastically obliges.

Public apologies used to be a very serious matter -- that's why they
were so uncommon. In the past, when faced with bad news, politicians
would do anything rather than confess. Typically, they dissimulated.
Rather than tell you how they felt about something unpleasant for
which they might be held accountable, they just issued denials: "It
never happened." Later, when denial was no longer possible, they
downplayed the matter: "All right, it happened, but it wasn't as bad
as you say." And then, later still, when the scale of the crime or
scandal was clear to all, they would concede that, "Well, yes, it
happened and it was every bit as bad as you say. But it's all so long
ago -- why dredge up the past?"

That is still the response in cultures where the public confession of
failure or misbehavior carries heavy social penalties. In Japan, the
wartime mistreatment of Chinese and Koreans is still mired in
semi-denial and official mis-memory. Turkish authorities -- and many
Turks -- shift uncomfortably between exculpatory re-description and
outright denial when confronted with the massacre of the Armenians.
Australia's leaders no longer deny the near-genocide of the
Aborigines, but it is such old news that they refuse to dwell on it.

Even where international pressure has made official "regrets" and
restitution unavoidable, as in the case of the Holocaust, heartfelt
official remorse is rare -- the recent apology by President Alexander
Kwasniewski for his countrymen's part in the destruction of their
Jewish neighbors was all the more effective for being unprecedented
in Poland.

The public apology, in short, is not a universal political response
to bad news. But in the United States, where virtually everyone
(except the 43rd president) apologizes at the first opportunity, it
has a very different resonance. This does seem to be a distinctively
American development. True, Tony Blair also indulges in it, but then
in his well-advertised religiosity and his propensity to wax
moralistic, Blair is the most "American" prime minister in modern
British history. He is also of an age with Bill Clinton, Al Gore,
George W. Bush and other baby boomers molded by the pedagogical
revolution of the '60s and the narcissistic preoccupations of the
era.

For this generation of political leaders -- and followers -- it has
always been important to have the right sort of feelings and to
display them copiously. Thus (according to his spokesman) President
Bush -- hitherto seemingly immune to the sensibilities of his
generation -- feels sorry for the "pain caused" by the publication of
pictures and reports of American soldiers torturing Iraqis. In Bush's
own words he feels "bad" about what happened, "sorry for the
humiliation" of Iraqi prisoners. He might not say that he exactly
"feels their pain" -- that is a more distinctively Clintonian
sentiment -- but it is the same general idea: Saying "sorry" makes it
better. The victim feels better and so does the perpetrator --
indeed, you score a triple: You are good, you do good and you feel
good.

The preferred use of sorry, however, is in the formulation "I'm sorry
that such and such happened," distancing the speaker from any
connection to the events, thereby relieving the speaker of any need
for self-examination.

But in any case, in its transition from private relations to public
affairs, the apology encounters some intriguing paradoxes. In the
first place, it is self-undermining. As anyone knows who has ever
dealt with young children, saying "sorry" has a dual purpose: It
concedes guilt and exculpates the perpetrator. "I said I'm sorry --
why are you still upset?" Thus President Bush undoubtedly hopes that
by saying how sorry he feels that his army has disgraced itself he
can speedily put the affair behind him. But in this he is surely
mistaken.

In our age of instant remorse the currency of penitence has been
hyperinflated and has lost almost all its value. Most of those who
heard the president expressing his regrets, above all the Arab and
Muslim audience to which they were primarily directed, will have
echoed the celebrated response of Mandy Rice-Davies at the height of
the Christine Keeler affair in Swinging London, when Lord Astor
denied under oath that he had been involved with her: "Well, he would
say that, wouldn't he?"

Moreover, while the president's regrets are doubtless heartfelt, his
skeptical international audience is likely to reflect that he is no
less "sorry" that the news leaked out. He may also come to rue the
carefully qualified apologies offered by his subordinates: Maj. Gen.
Geoffrey Miller, in charge of Abu Ghraib prison, first offered his
apologies and then spent some time explaining that what he was
referring to were the "illegal or unauthorized acts" of "a small
number of soldiers." Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the U.S. army spokesman
in Iraq, similarly qualified his expression of regrets -- "a small
number of soldiers doing the wrong thing." Such grudging, formulaic
repentance (alleged sodomy "with a chemical light and perhaps a
broomstick" is now "the wrong thing"?) merely calls attention to its
own inadequacy -- and invites charges of bad faith.

So what is a democratic leader to do? If you apologize too soon it
rings false -- particularly to foreign audiences unfamiliar with the
American cult of contrition. But if you stay silent it suggests
callous indifference or a coverup. The crimes in Abu Ghraib and
elsewhere are not comparable to My Lai in Vietnam or other atrocities
committed in the heat of battle by terrified GIs and inadequate
officers. They were born of that arrant indifference to laws,
regulations, rights and rules that has characterized this
administration from the outset, and that was bound, sooner or later,
to percolate down to the sergeants and mercenaries who do the dirty
work. Thus Bush had no option but to acknowledge immediately that
terrible things had been done in Iraq -- and he would be wise to make
sure that he has been told and is telling the whole story. But a
public expression of his pain and sorrow will no longer suffice.

What is missing in the modern American cult of "sorry" is any sense
of responsibility. Whether it concerns the incompetence of the
security apparatus before 9/11, a misguided and failed imperial
adventure, the mismanagement and degradation of the army, or the
criminal behavior of Americans in Iraq, everyone feels "bad" and
everyone expresses "regret." But until Defense Secretary Donald H.
Rumsfeld testified on Friday, no one even hinted at feeling
"responsible." According to Bush (interviewed on the U.S.-funded Al
Hurra Arabic language television network), "We believe in
transparency, because we're a free society. That's what free
societies do. If there's a problem, they address those problems in a
forthright, upfront manner." Except, of course, we don't.



For in the very next sentence, Bush assures his interlocutor that
"I've got confidence in the secretary of defense, and I've got
confidence in the commanders on the ground . . . because they and our
troops are doing great work on behalf of the Iraqi people." So the
commanders are off the hook.

Meanwhile the New York Times (on May 6) carries a touching little
story about the confused and helpless GIs who actually did the
torturing, claiming that they were following orders/ had no orders/
misunderstood those orders/ were themselves misunderstood/ suffered
great stress at the time/ are suffering even greater stress now --
and so forth.

Everyone is sorry "it" happened. But unless its leaders can get
beyond that sanctimonious and self-serving response, the United
States is in deep trouble. If Rumsfeld (who on Friday offered his
"deepest apology"), Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz or
Joint Chiefs Chairman Richard B. Myers were honorable men they would
resign in shame. But they are not.

If Bush were of presidential caliber he would have sacked them by now
-- and taken full personal responsibility for their incompetence. But
wherever the buck stops these days, it surely is not on the
president's desk. Yet nothing short of such an old-fashioned
assumption of duty can now retrieve America's standing in the
community of nations.

To the rest of the world Bush's apologies are mere exercises in
damage control. The same president who spoke of leading God's crusade
against Evil and who basked in the self-congratulatory aura of his
invincible warriors will have difficulty convincing the rest of
humanity that he really cares about a few brutalized Arabs.

Given the president's simultaneous and reiterated insistence that
neither he nor his staff have done anything wrong and that there is
nothing to change in his policies or goals, who will take seriously
such an apology, extracted in extremis? Like confessions obtained
under torture, it is worthless. As recent events have shown, America
under Bush can still debase and humiliate its enemies. But it has
lost the respect of its friends -- and it is fast losing respect for
itself. Now that is something to feel sorry about.

#51 THOTH

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 11:38 AM

I agree completely with everything TB and Armat have said here. All Turks (who know/understand anything concerning the Genocide and the humilations and massacres preceeding it) should be ashamed - very ashamed - ashamed at the horrible things that were done - by Turks - in the name of Turkism (essentially/at least in part) - and yes - of course - ashamed of being Turkish - based on this legacy alone. Just as I am (truly & scincerely) ashamed of being an American in regards to the recent events in Iraq - crimes and misdeeds commited by Americans and (larger) actions justified in the name of American interests etc. And I am ashamed of being American (and even of Western European dissent) for past crimes against the indigineous peoples of the Americas. Of course I am - what person of concious could not be! Even being only part German - and even when my family had left one hundred years before the Holocaust - i have a certain shame in regards to my Germaness. Becuase these horrible deeds were caused by my people - people like me - of whom I am a descendent. I believe that people who don't feel a sense of shame for these deeds are either callous or ignorant. And in regards to Turks - with the ongoing denial - there is even more to cause one shame for being one whose people are party to such.

Websters:
Main Entry: shame
Pronunciation: 'shAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion
2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY
3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame

Edited by THOTH, 14 May 2004 - 11:39 AM.


#52 bellthecat

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE (THOTH @ May 14 2004, 05:38 PM)
Websters:
Main Entry: shame
Pronunciation: 'shAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion
2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY

Huh, Thoth, you're the last person I'd be expecting to be citing the meanings of the word shame. mad.gif

The word I want Turks to start using is not, and never will be, shame.

The word I want to hear is REGRET. That is still a feeling that has some sincerity behind it. And regret has a greater "depth" in time. The regret would not just be a regret for things that happened almost 90 years ago, but a regret for a loss that Turks and Turkey (as well as Armenia and Armenians) can still feel today if it is properly explained what has been lost. And this, its ability to be contemporary and inclusive, means that it is both more valuable, and more genuine, and more acceptable.

All unlike that snivelling fraud called "shame". Just change that word's pronounciation from an "A" as in cane to an "A" as in apple to reach its real meaning today: a sham.

#53 Boghos

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 03:05 PM

Personal issues aside (Steve, please...) I much prefer "regret". Shame sounds more politically correct but it is indeed too Spielbergeresque.

Edited by Boghos, 14 May 2004 - 03:07 PM.


#54 bellthecat

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 03:39 PM

QUOTE (Boghos @ May 14 2004, 09:05 PM)
Personal issues aside (Steve, please...) I much prefer "regret". Shame sounds more politically correct but it is indeed too Spielbergeresque.

Yes, sorry.

And "regret" is both softer and less antagonistic - it is something that one feels on ones own accord, and is not, like shame, something that is forced upon someone.

#55 Armat

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE (bellthecat @ May 14 2004, 03:39 PM)
And "regret" is both softer and less antagonistic - it is something that one feels on ones own accord, and is not, like shame, something that is forced upon someone.

Actually regret sound like a business proposition gone wrong in board meeting not appropriate in the context of genocides. Just imagine Germans saying we regret about the holocaust. Like it was light enough events that require no more emotional input. Much like picnic got ruin by the rain…
Shame does not have to be forced upon a person but that person will feel it when truly understanding the gravity of crimes.

If and when a Turkish politician says I regret about the AG but offered no apology then that regret could be described as mediocre real politics.

Edited by Armat, 14 May 2004 - 04:19 PM.


#56 THOTH

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 05:11 PM

Shame is a word, a concept which is used in Anthropological circles to describe contrition and REGRET (and look at the Webster definition that I provided..3. ...something to be regretted) - more then just the internalized guilt - but as the first step in seeking forgiveness from others by aknowledging that whatever was done to warrant such (censure etc form others) was henious and uncalled for and that the perpetrator(s) has/have internalized this fact and that they realize that they have gone beyond the norm and hurt others - etc . This is the idea is that they are shamed before the eyes of all others - they feel regret (for the hurt) and remorse and are then in the position (where they are expected) to make amends. I think shame is exactly what any Turk with a concious - with a heart should feel concerning the deeds of their forfathers/predecessors and their continued campaign to deny Armenains any justice or (at least) recognition/acknowledgement.

Regret is but an (insufficient - but of course one would certainly hope there is at least this) subset of shame (or the process of being ashamed and moving on to atonement - etc). To only feel regret - it could be that perhaps they regret not having finished the job, or regret that others are down on them becuse of these actions/events..it is the shame - that one feels - beyond just regret - that properly describes how a human being should feel about all the innocents that were merceilesly slaughtered, towns, villages and an entire society destroyed, and it is entirely shameful how the Turkish society has continued to perpetuate the pain, suffering and unrepentant slanders and attacks against Armenians even to this day. Shmae is a necessary preconditon for any subsequant healing - without it - everything else is hollow - meaningless.

Ah this is good really - to think this issue through a bit - as tonight - in concert with several other Armenians in my area - I make a multi-media presentation of/about Armenians to a group of students (they specially invited me to join them!). My portion is discussion of the Genocide and of the lost legacy of Armenians in Anatolia. I must take a poll after to see how the audience feels about whether or not the Turks of today should feel shame for what was done...or perhaps should the whole issue just be forgotten...

#57 Boghos

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 06:10 PM

I think regret is more appropriate because first it is more authentic and second it at this point in time it makes more sense. Gult feelings, shame can only be attributed to those that comitted the crimes, not his descendents. But at the end of the day that is discussing, as we say, the sex of the angels.

#58 Twilight Bark

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:45 PM

Indeed regret is already contained in "shame". But I need to emphasize once again that the shame we should be talking about is not of the personal kind when it comes to the act of genocide itself; today's Turks did not commit it and they do not need to feel personally ashamed of it. The shame is about the traits of an ethnic identity that justified genocide, still glorifies its perpetrators, and still glorifies and longs for conquests and domination. You cannot regret your way out of that identity. To reform it, you have to be ashamed of its shameful traits first. It's "I am ashamed of those things", and not "I am ashamed of myself". Regret says "Oops what a bad thing to have done", without much further reflection or change. Being ashamed of something is indeed a stronger and more relevantly, a transforming experience. And I would like to repeat that I am reflecting philosophically and not "diplomatically" or in any "utilitarian" sense. That is, I don't expect Turks to do anything beyond a grudging "regret". But that is beside the point.

#59 hytga

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 08:44 PM

let me jump in with my few cents. if you don't mind of course. regret can be a confusing term.
if a turk today says i regret what happened, then what does he really mean? does he regret that not all armenians were killed. does he regret that the genocide happened because of his moral values? does he regret the that the genocide happened because today it only damages the image of turkey?

on the other hand i don't thnk a turk shoud feel ashamed for what his ancestors did. he shoud be ashamed for himself for denying the genocide, and as twilight said glorifying it's perpetrators.

that's why both terms are inapropriate when used individually, but they'll be appropriate if used together.

one cannot regret the AG (in strictly morall point of view) and at the same time not feel ashamed for denying it.

#60 THOTH

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 09:45 PM

TB - and don't you think I understand this....

and hytga - yes and no - I understand your point - but yes - they should be ashamed - and this is my point...

Edited by THOTH, 15 May 2004 - 05:05 AM.





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