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Iraqi Abuse


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#21 bellthecat

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Posted 11 May 2004 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (Accelerated @ May 11 2004, 09:38 AM)
The British Army has allready addmitted to 30 civilian DEATHS in their custody, presumably from fatigue after being endlessly paraded in women's underwear

Wrong - this figure, and I've seen a lower figure elsewhere, is of civilian deaths that are not obviously justified (i.e. those killed were not behaving in any sort of a hostile way). Most were not in custody when killed (none were, if you believe Labour party spin).

I'd guess the American figure, would be into the 1000s if you count those civilians killed as a result of indiscriminate US bombing and shooting in Falluja and elsewhere.

#22 Arpa

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Posted 11 May 2004 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (bellthecat @ May 11 2004, 08:35 PM)
Wrong - this figure, and I've seen a lower figure elsewhere, is of civilian deaths that are not obviously justified (i.e. those killed were not behaving in any sort of a hostile way). Most were not in custody when killed (none were, if you believe Labour party spin).

Demonization, dehumnization and let me add another here, monsteraization are preludes to wars and massacres. Once we are sonvinced that the adversary is less than human the rest is easy. For American that has been wearing trousers for a long time it is easy to consider anyone who does not as inferior and less than human.
How coincidental? As I am writing therse lines the Novak and gang on CNN are talking about the "demonization of Saddam".
There are many races and people who consider themselves above the rest. I will not name them. You fill in the blanks. At time Armenians have acted similarly but in our case we ended up not the massacrers but the massacred.
Why???

#23 Sip

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Posted 11 May 2004 - 05:29 PM

I would feel horrible about those reports of abuse if Iraq was known for it's track record for following international law (e.g. geneva convetion ...) but they themselves are certainly not playing by any rules so it's a bit strange coming down on the US for these reports and making the US to be the only bad guy.

Are these reports desturbing and are the actions wrong? Sure. No doubt about it. But we are talking about prison and we are talking about a part of the world that is in huge chaos.

#24 Accelerated

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Posted 11 May 2004 - 07:15 PM

QUOTE
Wrong - this figure, and I've seen a lower figure elsewhere, is of civilian deaths that are not obviously justified (i.e. those killed were not behaving in any sort of a hostile way). Most were not in custody when killed (none were, if you believe Labour party spin).


yes, I think you are right: it was total civilian deaths, not just in custody.

Movses, unfortunatelly we do not have access to any photoes of Iraqis blown to pieces by US bombs....and the anger displayed in the Iraqi photo is a direct result of the photo next to it....like I said if my father had been humiliated in that manner I would do far worse to any American soldier I could lay my hands on.

QUOTE
But we are talking about prison and we are talking about a part of the world that is in huge chaos.


Armenia just happens ot be in that part of the world, and the US portrays itself as a beacon of freedom and democracy....

Edited by Accelerated, 11 May 2004 - 07:21 PM.


#25 vava

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Posted 11 May 2004 - 08:58 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ May 11 2004, 06:29 PM)
I would feel horrible about those reports of abuse if Iraq was known for it's track record for following international law (e.g. geneva convetion ...) but they themselves are certainly not playing by any rules so it's a bit strange coming down on the US for these reports and making the US to be the only bad guy.

Sip jan, no one is saying that the US is the only bad guy... but we should expect that the US, for all the preaching about ridding the world of evil, should really demonstrate themselves to be 'above' that type of behaviour. When in fact the reality is, soldiers will be soldiers. Was Saddam as bad as his (perhaps) trumped up track record indicates? Probably. What about the American army's track record?

The fact that one can even draw parallels between an 'evil' dictatorial regime and the actions of the American military (who are a product of a progressive and supposedly well-meaning society) is disappointing beyond words.

#26 gurgen

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 07:21 AM

QUOTE (Sip @ May 12 2004, 12:29 AM)
But we are talking about prison and we are talking about a part of the world that is in huge chaos.

Gee I wonder who caused a large part of that chaos?

#27 ExtraHye

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 12:15 PM

How would you explain the beheading of Nick Berg??? I had the misfortune of seeing the while video, it was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life!!! sad.gif

#28 Azat

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 12:26 PM

2 wrongs don't make a right. Just because they are doing awful things is not an excuse for US to act horrible as well.

#29 Sip

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 12:28 PM

QUOTE (ExtraHye @ May 12 2004, 12:15 PM)
... it was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life!!!  sad.gif

Even worse than Ron Jeremy? biggrin.gif

I totally agree Azat and I also agree Vava.

#30 DominO

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 12:54 PM

I agree with Vava and Azat, BUT!!! I think all this thing has been overexposed on the media, like if it was the worst thing ever. Face it guys, those kind of things happens regulraly in any armies. I am not trying to justify it, I am just disgusted of the overexposure. mad.gif

Edited by Fadix, 12 May 2004 - 12:58 PM.


#31 Sasun

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ May 12 2004, 02:54 PM)
Face it guys, those kind of things happens regulraly in any armies.

That is why a lot of people have been against war in general and against this war in particular.

#32 Sip

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:07 PM

What we shouldn't lose perspective of is whether what goes on in those prisons have actually improved since the US has moved in. I have this strange feeling that they have.

#33 DominO

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ May 12 2004, 01:06 PM)
That is why a lot of people have been against war in general and against this war in particular.

Exactly!!! People should not forget it is a war, prisoners are taken, and not well treated, it is not their treatment that is the problem but the war itself. I am just sick of the overexposition of the treatment of those prisoners, the terrorists and sick minds are laughing up their @ss here. What I find really disgusting is those terrorists cutting the head of someone and using it as a pretext, when everyone knows that the ill treatment of the prisoners had nothing to do with their decision.

#34 Sasun

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ May 12 2004, 03:21 PM)
Exactly!!! People should not forget it is a war, prisoners are taken, and not well treated, it is not their treatment that is the problem but the war itself. I am just sick of the overexposition of the treatment of those prisoners, the terrorists and sick minds are laughing up their @ss here. What I find really disgusting is those terrorists cutting the head of someone and using it as a pretext, when everyone knows that the ill treatment of the prisoners had nothing to do with their decision.

Agreed Domino, but on the other hand the US authorities would always point out that their army, their war is different, it is humanistic, liberating, etc. There is a great deal of hypocricy involved, everyone can now see that after all the US army is not much different than most other armies, and the US aggression is not much different than any other power's aggression. I think this is the main trouble in the US reality vs. US rhetoric.

As to beheading and other cruelties - that is much worse than US actions, there is no doubt about it. However, those fanatics live in the middle ages. They never hide or misrepresent what they do, they never parade as democrats, they are not hypocrites. Not that it justifies any of their actions but this difference should be pointed out.

#35 DominO

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:36 PM

Sasun, a war is a war. I was really not surprised at all after of the treatment of the prisoners. Clear wars might exist in another universe, but yet we still havn't decided to live in such a universe. smile.gif

#36 bellthecat

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ May 12 2004, 07:21 PM)
Exactly!!! People should not forget it is a war, prisoners are taken, and not well treated, it is not their treatment that is the problem but the war itself. I am just sick of the overexposition of the treatment of those prisoners, the terrorists and sick minds are laughing up their @ss here. What I find really disgusting is those terrorists cutting the head of someone and using it as a pretext, when everyone knows that the ill treatment of the prisoners had nothing to do with their decision.

Your words could have come from a typical Turkish about "the so-called Armenian genocide". The usual "it was war, people die during war, lots of other people died as well as Armenians, why are you constantly going on and on about it, it is just used as an excuse for ASALA terrorists, etc, etc".

#37 DominO

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:40 PM

Steve, illtreatment of war prisoners is expected and happens on every wars, I am not justifying it, I am only saying that the problem is not the illtreatment of prisoners, because that is something that happen with every wars, the real problem is the war itself. A genocide is entirly another issue.

#38 bellthecat

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ May 12 2004, 07:40 PM)
Steve, illtreatment of war prisoners is expected and happens on every wars, I am not justifying it, I am only saying that the problem is not the illtreatment of prisoners, because that is something that happen with every wars, the real problem is the war itself. A genocide is entirly another issue.

You are wrong. During WW2 I don't recall anything like this happening in POW camps in Nazi Germany, or in Britain or Canada or America.
The problem has not arisen because of war, the problem has arisen because of the culture that initiated that war. If there is something rotten at the heart of America's occupying forces in Iraq then it is because there is something rotten at the heart of the American Establishment.

#39 Sasun

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:50 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ May 12 2004, 03:36 PM)
Sasun, a war is a war. I was really not surprised at all after of the treatment of the prisoners.

Domino, I was surprised, but now that I think I should not have been surprised after knowing about the sub-human, unlawful treatment of Guantanamo Bay prisoners.

QUOTE
Clear wars might exist in another universe, but yet we still havn't decided to live in such a universe.  smile.gif


Obviously, the US administration had wanted everyone to believe that we live in such a universe.

#40 bellthecat

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:53 PM

Though of course similar and far worse things did happen in prison camps run by the Japanese, or in camps for Russian prisoners, or in concentration camps. That is because they were all run on the ideological basis that those imprisoned were considered to be subhuman. Which will also be the reason for the abuses in the prisons in Iraq, and all the things that are going on there and the prisons in Afghanistan and Cuba.




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