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Schwarzenegger Denies Clemency For Williams


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#21 Sip

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 08:48 AM

QUOTE (vava @ Dec 14 2005, 07:24 PM)
If we kill, we're no better than the murderous "scum" ourselves. Screw the 'resources'. I don't care what you say - murder is murder, and it is simply NOT justifiable.


That is not true. Murder is not justifiable but killing is. In my view, killing in self defense is absolutely justifiable. If someone is going to kill you, then you can kill that person without that being murder. Capital Punishment should only be used in cases where the subject is an imminent and on going threat to the rest of society.

In case of Tookie, that definitely applied. It's just sad to see it happen 25 years too late. What makes it even more justifiable is that he never acknowledged, he never confesed, and he never showed remorse or appologized for any of his killings. mad.gif

Edited by Sip, 15 December 2005 - 08:49 AM.


#22 MosJan

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (vava @ Dec 15 2005, 06:22 AM)
Yes, I'm sure. smile.gif Nothing, and no one can give you (or the government) a moral right to kill.



in that case keep your dog & your cat away from my parrot smile.gif

#23 ED

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 11:45 AM

QUOTE (Sip @ Dec 15 2005, 06:48 AM)
That is not true. Murder is not justifiable but killing is. In my view, killing in self defense is absolutely justifiable. If someone is going to kill you, then you can kill that person without that being murder. Capital Punishment should only be used in cases where the subject is an imminent and on going threat to the rest of society.

In case of Tookie, that definitely applied. It's just sad to see it happen 25 years too late. What makes it even more justifiable is that he never acknowledged, he never confesed, and he never showed remorse or appologized for any of his killings. mad.gif



Sip has capital panishment reduced any crime? crime has gone up with the same rate as state puts prisoners to death, look at Texas the most state which carried out execution, is Texas a safer place?

I dont think it has any effect of reducing crime or murder, this is a culture of violance, glorification of the execution plays over and over on TV and Media, cpital panishment isent reducing crime but it sure gets a canditate elected to public offece

#24 Takoush

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 12:17 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Dec 15 2005, 12:45 PM)
I dont think it has any effect of reducing crime or murder, this is a culture of violance, glorification of the execution plays over and over on TV and Media, cpital panishment isent reducing crime but it sure gets a canditate elected to public offece


Also, how about all the ones that may be innocent........?

#25 phantom22

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Dec 15 2005, 08:43 AM)
Oh come on?! Where do you draw the line? Next thing you know you'll be wacking the seniors, the sick, the physically/mentally challanged and so forth. huh.gif The whole world is FULL of "useless human infestation" are you going to start culling the world of 'gene' superiority too?


Capitol punishment is not a deterrent to murder. This has been proven numerous times.

There is more than one way to kill. The Bush administration are a bunch of hypocrits. Their policies are "killing" many. Do you not think that depriving a person from making a living is not a form of murder?

Many are doubling and tripling their immense wealth due to the policies of these so-called Christians while others including former members of the middle class slip into poverty.

Furthermore, no one speaks about the American boys and girls dying in Iraq nor the hundreds of thousands of the citizens of Iraq who are dying due to what is transpiring there.

Why are the Americans trying to convert Christians in Iraq to fundamentalist Southern-US Christianity? Don't we have enough of those bozos in the US? Do we have to export this idiocy to the Middle East? I am so sick of this idiot in the White House and his corrupt adminstration.

When I was growing up Christians acted more like Christians. Bush is a TOTAL fraud.

Edited by phantom22, 15 December 2005 - 12:35 PM.


#26 Anoushik

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Dec 13 2005, 03:05 PM)
I'm sorry but you shoot 4 people like that (plus a lot lot more), you deserve to die. There is no redemption here. That would be saying you can do ANYTHING you want but then go and write some kids books and we let you live?

I used to be against capital punishment because I used to believe that people are not God to decide whether someone should live or die. But lately I've been thinking that if someone murdered a member of my family without any reason or thought (maybe they happened to be witnesses to some crime) I wouldn't want that person to breathe on this Earth while my family member was gone forever.

In the case of Tookie, since capital punishment is exercised and he received the death penalty then he should pay for the crimes that he did. This has nothing to do with race, or the fight against capital punishment. The opponents of his execution were just trying to prevent his execution, yet he clearly did not deserve to be saved. Capital punishment is the highest penalty for crime and he received his judgment.

#27 Anoushik

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Dec 15 2005, 09:45 AM)
Sip has capital panishment reduced any crime? crime has gone up with the same rate as state puts prisoners to death, look at Texas the most state which carried out execution, is Texas a safer place?

I dont think it has any effect of reducing crime or murder, this is a culture of violance, glorification of the execution plays over and over on TV and Media, cpital panishment isent reducing crime but it sure gets a canditate elected to public offece

But doesn't the thought of the death penalty scare some criminals into making a deal with the state and giving up names of other criminals in order not to get the death penalty? Wouldn't you say it helps in some way?

#28 ED

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:07 PM

yes Anoushig the thought could be used, maybe thats a scare tactic, we are not talking about the same thing, does state sponsered murder prevent crime? I dont think so

#29 Sip

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Dec 15 2005, 08:43 AM)
Oh come on?! Where do you draw the line? Next thing you know you'll be wacking the seniors, the sick, the physically/mentally challanged and so forth. huh.gif The whole world is FULL of "useless human infestation" are you going to start culling the world of 'gene' superiority too?


You know I am FOR all those things as I have said several times before. I am also for euthanizing terminally ill babies, vegatables that have almost no chance of recovery (as certified by several doctors), and those that actually want to be euthanized. But those are different subjects. I don't think any reasonable person will equate capital punishment with euthanasia, abortion, or assisting in the wishes of sickly elderly. Yah, that's right, I called you unreasonable tongue.gif

Here, we are talking about violent, vicious, and ruthless criminals with a loooooooong track record of comitting VERY heinous crimes against other people. Where do I draw the line? If you have killed 4 people, show absolutely no remorse, never appologize for doing so, create and head a violent gang and are responsible for countless violent criminal acts against other people, then damnit you are on the other side of the line.

Am I saying we send a guy who was caught with a 14 oz of weed in his car to the chair? Of course not. In case of Tookie, did we deserve to be put out of our misery, yes.

The line is not a solid object. One HAS to evaluate the merits of each case. The law provides a basis for cases where death penalty is valid. SEVERAL judges decide whether that law applies. After years and years of appeals, this thing even reached the Supreme court and was turned down. It's also not a haphazard law that will send any guy to the death penalty for no reason. That's why I don't think screaming "oh my oh my where will we ever draw the line" is valid in this case (or most capital punishment cases).

This guy was sooooooooooooo over the line, the line seemed like a dot to him. biggrin.gif

Edited by Sip, 15 December 2005 - 02:21 PM.


#30 Takoush

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:22 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Dec 15 2005, 03:07 PM)
yes Anoushig the thought could be used, maybe thats a scare tactic, we are not talking about the same thing, does state sponsered murder prevent crime? I dont think so

Only this past Tuesday, one of my school peers gave an informative speech about capital punishment, and she was saying the same thing you just mentioned, Ed jan. She even gave some numbers, I don't know it by heart now; but she said the same as you said. She also doesn'nt believe in capital punishment, but that's besides the point. She was making the same point you were making. By the way, I do not believe in it either. Also, as I said it in my above post; how about some innocent people that may be killed for it wrongly. That wouldn't be good, would it?

#31 Sip

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:26 PM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Dec 15 2005, 01:56 PM)
But doesn't the thought of the death penalty scare some criminals into making a deal with the state and giving up names of other criminals in order not to get the death penalty? Wouldn't you say it helps in some way?


The death penalty doesn't scare criminals because of the horrible way it is implemented. In California, you are guaranteed a VERY cushy prison life away from the jungle of general population for at least a couple of decades. Also, how many of those on death row actually get executed?

In this case, the poorly implemented system is not only not a deterrent, it's actually an encouragement to try to get the death penalty (I know I would) if you have made up your mind about committing a series of very bad things.

But one has to be VERY careful about when to apply the death penalty. For example, some people want to have death penalty for bad cases of rape as well. I don't think that's such a good idea ... having the same penalty for murder and rape will only make it easier for the rapist to murder his victim. That's because the victim will be far less likely to be able to identify the rapist later, so why not murder the victim since if you get caught, you'll face the same penalty anyway.

Edited by Sip, 15 December 2005 - 02:28 PM.


#32 vava

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:37 PM

This is probably one of the first times that we've significantly disagreed smile.gif

And yes - perhaps my 'all or nothing' viewpoint merits being called unreasonable - I'll take that. But I remain convinced that taking the life of any individual (be it a good life, or a 'threat' to society - by whoever's standards) is apprehensable.

Where I was going with my previous post, is that once you deem it within the scope of the law to 'legalize' murder - state sactioned at that - it leads to a slippery slope. Laws are made by people, and people are prone to errors in judgement. Let's not put the right to kill in 'ordinary people's hands. As you said the line is not solid. Criminal X may be sentenced to death while Criminal Y get's to live - and the crimes may be quite similar; it will depend on WHO does the judging. That too is incorrect.

QUOTE
One HAS to evaluate the merits of each case. The law provides a basis for cases where death penalty is valid. SEVERAL judges decide whether that law applies. After years and years of appeals, this thing even reached the Supreme court and was turned down. It's also not a haphazard law that will send any guy to the death penalty for no reason.


Finally, you've shot down your own "save our resources" argument. Every death sentence will be accompanied by appeals, more appeals and sumpreme court decisions. Everyone of these guys will deny his crime. Courts are costly - and before you know it, you've spent more money defending your prosecution case/sentencing, than you have if he'd been put away for life. Here in Canada (in the last few years) I know of at least three cases where a criminal convicted of murder, serving a life sentence hsa been exonerated due to new evidence - Marshall served 18 years in prison before being declared not-guilty. Have if we had fried the guy? Who pays for that?

#33 vava

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Dec 15 2005, 03:37 PM)
This is probably one of the first times that we've significantly disagreed smile.gif


Except for tomatoes, and perhaps a buffet or two wink.gif

#34 Anileve

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Dec 15 2005, 03:26 PM)
The death penalty doesn't scare criminals because of the horrible way it is implemented. In California, you are guaranteed a VERY cushy prison life

Actually I have to disagree with this. I don't know why people assume that life in prison is a paradise, it's largely a myth. I did have conversations with students who were ex-prisoners and listening to their stories, while your heart starts to pound faster and you just gasp in astonishment, "cushy" is the last thing that comes to mind. Prisoner's DO NOT have an easy life in prison, most of them come out crushed, unable to sleep, with failing health and life completely destroyed. There are many mafia type terror groups that are completely ruthless, just reading about them is bone chilling. Neta, Aryan Brotherhood, Black Guerrilla Family, Mexican Mafia, La Nuestra Familia, Texas Syndicate are just a few of these monstrous prison organizations. Aryan Brotherhood, probably the most notorious and violent gangs, sprouted in CA. I read this article a while ago, and eventhough it's long it's quite captivating. I was mortified but I couldn't stop reading, it will give you a better insight into the reality of prisons. I think the author, who conducted a serious investigation of the gang, received an award for this article.

http://www.newyorker...?040216fa_fact6




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