335 replies to this topic

[Arvestaked]

Your observations are not sufficient enough.

It's the same thing. You claim that studies can be biased. How is your "opinion" not biased. You state something to be true based on your "observations" without any facts. Don't you see that you're publicly offending women?

Yet you're doing the same.

Yes, it is very unfortunately that society (controlled by men) has tolerated and allowed for certain group of people to make outragous claims against others. Belittling women and calling them unintelligent seems perfectly fine, doesn't it? It's time for the developed societies to make laws against ridiculing people based on their gender. What's taking so long? Well, men wouldn't want to give up their superiority yet, would they?
This is written with such ignorance and closed-mindedness that I don't even know why I bother. I just want to say that you haven't given any proofs in your arguments whatsoever other than the fact that you keep claiming that your arguments are based on your observations.

Edit: "ridiculing people"

Nice try. Apparently you missed "I am not seeking to convince anybody of anything but rather, by expressing my opinion, show that any claims of intellectual equality that are automatically surrendered to are potentially unreasonable and are being accepted because of political correctness and not unbiased studies or observations. "

I never said women were unintelligent! Unbelievable! This shows that you will believe what you want, no matter what!

I never belittled women! My original point was that the genders are equal in terms of their positive and negative roles in society and that they succeed in being so in different ways. Somehow people got the idea that intelligence, whatever it may be, is the deciding factor in a gender's success. That is a load of horse pucky.

[Arvestaked]

What speeches? Which stand-up comics? Is this all you have? Even so, give an example. And yes, this is about history because the society hasn't changed much.

You want an example?

Here's one from a comic I actually like a lot. "Women are smarter than men and I can prove it. It's simple. How many women have you heard say, 'Yeah, I lost these two fingers trying to make a bomb out of a tampon." [laughter & applause]

I have heard that stuff from Jay Leno, from Robin Willliams, etc.

How many internet joke lists have you seen that make fun of women and call them stupid. None! I cannot believe the excessive amount of excruciatingly mediocre jokes that float around people's inboxes that are just a bunch of feminist ego boosters.

I am not saying that I would enjoy the opposite but so it is.

[Anoushik]

Your words...

That being said, I do believe men tend to be more intelligent and creative. Women are better at multitasking and are not as easily distracted. Men are less consistant (as someone else mentioned) but it is the instance of higher creativity and intelligence that really pushes things forward and anything less is just support for the individuals who possess those traits. Creativity is actually very important. There is a certain intelligence which, although deserving of reverence, is more geared toward doing what is instructed and is dependant on understanding and duplicating preexisting ideas.

Nice try. Apparently you missed "I am not seeking to convince anybody of anything but rather, by expressing my opinion, show that any claims of intellectual equality that are automatically surrendered to are potentially unreasonable and are being accepted because of political correctness and not unbiased studies or observations. "

I didn't miss this, I just didn't quote it. You're not saying anything different here than in your other posts and I've answered you.

[Arvestaked]

Here is a supplement:

Conan O'Brien: "A study in the Washington Post says that women have better verbal skills than men. I just want to say to the authors of that study: 'duh.'"

Bill Maher has addressed the issue: "All men in television these days are bumbling idiots while the women are all smart and sensible. The only men not made out to be morons are h0m0's, I mean come on, Frasier Crane is gayer then christmas."

Do you ever watch "Everybody Loves Raymond?" Most of the time, who is the intelligent one in control: Raymond or his wife?

[Arvestaked]

Your words...
I didn't miss this, I just didn't quote it. You're not saying anything different here than in your other posts and I've answered you.

Had you recognized that I said that, you would not have said: "Your observations are not sufficient enough." Nor would you have said "It's the same thing. You claim that studies can be biased. How is your "opinion" not biased. You state something to be true based on your "observations" without any facts." Most of your reply was arguing the fact that I was stating an opinion. That means nothing since I had already mentioned it was so and that my aim was not to convince you of my opinion but yours is unfounded.

[Anoushik]

Here is a supplement:

Conan O'Brien: "A study in the Washington Post says that women have better verbal skills than men. I just want to say to the authors of that study: 'duh.'"

Bill Maher has addressed the issue: "All men in television these days are bumbling idiots while the women are all smart and sensible. The only men not made out to be morons are h0m0's, I mean come on, Frasier Crane is gayer then christmas."

Do you ever watch "Everybody Loves Raymond?" Most of the time, who is the intelligent one in control: Raymond or his wife?

Wait, now are you actually trying to say that women are intelligent and even more intelligent than men?

[Anoushik]

Had you recognized that I said that, you would not have said: "Your observations are not sufficient enough." Nor would you have said "It's the same thing. You claim that studies can be biased. How is your "opinion" not biased. You state something to be true based on your "observations" without any facts." Most of your reply was arguing the fact that I was stating an opinion. That means nothing since I had already mentioned it was so and that my aim was not to convince you of my opinion but yours is unfounded.

You cannot publicly state an "opinion" against another group of people and not expect that a representative from that group will speak up against your "opinion". If we were talking face to face I'd expect an apology for offending women in general (me included).

[Anoushik]

I was going to post this earlier but my internet froze (or however it's called)

How many internet joke lists have you seen that make fun of women and call them stupid. None! I cannot believe the excessive amount of excruciatingly mediocre jokes that float around people's inboxes that are just a bunch of feminist ego boosters.

You're changing the topic. I'll just say that for every such jokes there are the same amount directed to women. I won't waste time finding them now. But beyond jokes there are daily unfounded claims that women have to endure, such as "women are bad drivers", "women are not smart enough", "of course, she's a woman, what did you expect", "look at that slut, what she's wearing" etc, etc...

[DominO]

Look dusken, I have read your answers, and I will not consider them before you present me any evidences for the claim in question, this is just a question of credibility, you can claim that my position is only meant to be political correct all you want, the only thing I ask you is to bring evidences.

Just a note, have you read the recent study published few days ago, regarding the brain processing differences between men and women? If so, did you read the part regarding the said "intelligence" tests that show no differences between men and women?

I will consider your claim once you bring me scientific evidences, and as I said, I won't answer your post, and won't answer any new one, if they are not supported by scientific datas.

[Stormig]

I'm sorry? Who has been praising women in public again? I must have missed it.

[Arvestaked]

Wait, now are you actually trying to say that women are intelligent and even more intelligent than men?

You actually posted this? Wow. Are you even reading what I post?

[Arvestaked]

You cannot publicly state an "opinion" against another group of people and not expect that a representative from that group will speak up against your "opinion".

The only thing you can do is say you feel differently. Your opinion is not more credible than my own. You just think it is because it is so taboo to even question it.

If we were talking face to face I'd expect an apology for offending women in general (me included).

And I would not give it to you because I did not say anything that should be interpretted as offensive. If someone told me "Yea I met this guy and he's probably smarter than you," I would probably say, "Ok." I would not ask for an appology. That is ridiculous.

[Arvestaked]

I was going to post this earlier but my internet froze (or however it's called)

You're changing the topic. I'll just say that for every such jokes there are the same amount directed to women. I won't waste time finding them now. But beyond jokes there are daily unfounded claims that women have to endure, such as "women are bad drivers", "women are not smart enough", "of course, she's a woman, what did you expect", "look at that slut, what she's wearing" etc, etc...

I was not changing the topic at all. You asked for examples of how it is common in entertainment to praise women and insult men and I gave some to you. How is that off topic?

I never hear anyone saying women are not smart enough. Ever. And you probably do not either. Nobody does because either they do not agree or they will be attacked immediately by anyone in earshot.

Oh, and "look at that slut, what she's wearing" is something the comes from other women far more than it comes from men.

[Arvestaked]

Look dusken, I have read your answers, and I will not consider them before you present me any evidences for the claim in question, this is just a question of credibility, you can claim that my position is only meant to be political correct all you want, the only thing I ask you is to bring evidences.

Just a note, have you read the recent study published few days ago, regarding the brain processing differences between men and women? If so, did you read the part regarding the said "intelligence" tests that show no differences between men and women?

I will consider your claim once you bring me scientific evidences, and as I said, I won't answer your post, and won't answer any new one, if they are not supported by scientific datas.

I do not care whether you consider my opinion or reply to my post. You are not paying attention. You are still asking me to "bring evidences" when I told you that doing so is not the point and that I will not because my desire is not to convert everyone to my point of view. I am not going to repeat myself. I posted my opinion because I wanted to express that it is unreasonable to have such a violent reaction to someone who holds that opinion because it may not be misogynistic. Everyone immediately jumps one someone who says something like that because it is socially unacceptable to do so and not because there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Let us take Anoushik, for example. I bet she has not read any of the studies you have. Why then is she so adamant in her position? Why is she so upset at someone suggesting such a thing? Is she basing it on scientific facts or is she believing what she wants to believe? I said I believe that men tend to be more intelligent and I said that because I believe it is not unreasonable to believe it. My point was to show that the beholder of such an opinion does not necessarily deserve to be attacked. But did any one see that? No. I was still asked to "bring evidences," even after I expressed that I believe in such a topic, the studies on both sides would be biased. And I will conclude this paragraph by once again expressing the following: (1) I did not say all men are smarter than women because that would be a ridiculous statement; (2) I did not say men are the superior gender; and (3) I did not say women are stupid because that would be ignoring the fact that I have several female friends who are as intelligent as I am.

What study? This is a generic "recent study." "THE recent study." I'll go to the library and say, "I would like to read the recent study please." What country was it published in? In what language? Who did the study? What journal published it? Was it peer reviewed? Why is it more credible than Lawrence Summers study? This is all moot anyway because I already explained my intentions.

[DominO]

I do not care whether you consider my opinion or reply to my post. You are not paying attention. You are still asking me to "bring evidences" when I told you that doing so is not the point and that I will not because my desire is not to convert everyone to my point of view. I am not going to repeat myself. I posted my opinion because I wanted to express that it is unreasonable to have such a violent reaction to someone who holds that opinion because it may not be misogynistic. Everyone immediately jumps one someone who says something like that because it is socially unacceptable to do so and not because there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Let us take Anoushik, for example. I bet she has not read any of the studies you have. Why then is she so adamant in her position? Why is she so upset at someone suggesting such a thing? Is she basing it on scientific facts or is she believing what she wants to believe? I said I believe that men tend to be more intelligent and I said that because I believe it is not unreasonable to believe it. My point was to show that the beholder of such an opinion does not necessarily deserve to be attacked. But did any one see that? No. I was still asked to "bring evidences," even after I expressed that I believe in such a topic, the studies on both sides would be biased. And I will conclude this paragraph by once again expressing the following: (1) I did not say all men are smarter than women because that would be a ridiculous statement; (2) I did not say men are the superior gender; and (3) I did not say women are stupid because that would be ignoring the fact that I have several female friends who are as intelligent as I am.

What study? This is a generic "recent study." "THE recent study." I'll go to the library and say, "I would like to read the recent study please." What country was it published in? In what language? Who did the study? What journal published it? Was it peer reviewed? Why is it more credible than Lawrence Summers study? This is all moot anyway because I already explained my intentions.

Oh PLEASE!!! Quit this victim attitude, show me where have I attacked you because of your opinions, I merely asked you to support your claim.

It is true that everyone are entitled to their opinions, but the least one may ask is to support the opinion in question. We are not in a cheap talk shows here, it is a discussion board, and there is no limit of words to support your theses.

It is obvious why I ask this, you were there at the other place when anonymous with another member “googled” to support their cases when asked, you have seen what happened later when I decided to go deeper in the discussion by posting full abstracts and analyzing them... while they could not answer back their best defenses were yours, claiming being victims in the middle of a so-called witch hunting.. it was finally a compleat waste of time.

So now, I won't debate with someone that can not support his claims, this is simply a precaution I take to not end up again in an endless discussion, where the other merely draw a portrait of myself as a sole subject of the discussion.

And please, why Anoushiks positions should in any way be dependent of my own position? That her position is based on mere belief or not has no consequences over mine.

The facts are that aptitude tests don't show any differences, in the artistic community in general, there does not seem to be more men than women. One of the only scientific arguments was brain size, but the latest study(just published recently) not only supported the others previously published, but as well brought more clues. Women and men brains don't work the same way, this is because of evolution and adaptation, they are meant to compleat each others... but because of brain plasticity, the human brain is a very adaptative organ, new tasks could be sorted and performed(read the latest studies about brain rewiring), which mean that even though adaptation has made men and women more adapted to different tasks, they can still perform tasks that were not much useful for them but more useful for the opposite sex millenniums ago.

“I did not say women are stupid because that would be ignoring the fact that I have several female friends who are as intelligent as I am.”

That's a stupid statement, I hope you will understand why...

Edited by Fadix, 25 January 2005 - 04:00 PM.

[nairi]

Okay, first of all, I think I may have made a mistake. Did I accidently delete an important post? I saw a double reply, but don't remember who had posted it. I apologize for the inconvenience. <-- forgetful, fickle, confused.

Secondly, from observing this thread, I can only say this: literacy among men and women is no different. Some can read, some can't.

[DominO]

Okay, first of all, I think I may have made a mistake. Did I accidently delete an important post? I saw a double reply, but don't remember who had posted it. I apologize for the inconvenience. <-- forgetful, fickle, confused.

Secondly, from observing this thread, I can only say this: literacy among men and women is no different. Some can read, some can't.

The post in question was from dusken, from what I have seen he has quoted one line of my post without answering it...

Edited by Fadix, 25 January 2005 - 05:27 PM.

[Arvestaked]

Oh PLEASE!!! Quit this victim attitude, show me where have I attacked you because of your opinions, I merely asked you to support your claim.

It is true that everyone are entitled to their opinions, but the least one may ask is to support the opinion in question. We are not in a cheap talk shows here, it is a discussion board, and there is no limit of words to support your theses.

It is obvious why I ask this, you were there at the other place when anonymous with another member “googled” to support their cases when asked, you have seen what happened later when I decided to go deeper in the discussion by posting full abstracts and analyzing them... while they could not answer back their best defenses were yours, claiming being victims in the middle of a so-called witch hunting.. it was finally a compleat waste of time.

So now, I won't debate with someone that can not support his claims, this is simply a precaution I take to not end up again in an endless discussion, where the other merely draw a portrait of myself as a sole subject of the discussion.

And please, why Anoushiks positions should in any way be dependent of my own position? That her position is based on mere belief or not has no consequences over mine.

The facts are that aptitude tests don't show any differences, in the artistic community in general, there does not seem to be more men than women. One of the only scientific arguments was brain size, but the latest study(just published recently) not only supported the others previously published, but as well brought more clues. Women and men brains don't work the same way, this is because of evolution and adaptation, they are meant to compleat each others... but because of brain plasticity, the human brain is a very adaptative organ, new tasks could be sorted and performed(read the latest studies about brain rewiring), which mean that even though adaptation has made men and women more adapted to different tasks, they can still perform tasks that were not much useful for them but more useful for the opposite sex millenniums ago. 

“I did not say women are stupid because that would be ignoring the fact that I have several female friends who are as intelligent as I am.”

That's a stupid statement, I hope you will understand why...

Victim attitude?! What are you talking about? Are you comprehending anything I post at all? I never said you attacked me!

Support?! I cannot believe you are asking me for support when I told you I was not trying to convince you of my opinion!

I am not going to discuss this with you any further because you are ignoring my intentions. Stop being so self-righteous. I do not care if you think you are the debating guru, you cannot make something a debate if it is not a debate.

And just to finish it off...

There are plenty of tests that show differences between men and women whether it supports my personal observations or not. It is widely accepted, for example that men outperform women in terms of visuospatial processing and complex mathematics and women outperform men in simple mathematics and verbal processing and if you care for sources, you find them with a google search. I guarantee that they are there because I have read them doing just that.

Artistic community? You know nothing of the artistic community! I sent you a link that you most likely ignored and you will find that in that link, the ratio between men and women is very different. When you make such claims about the artistic community you are being as baseless and speculative as you claim I have been.

Oh, again with a nameless generic study, published in the generic journal by the generic people! And it is the lastest study! Well, excuse me! Nobody said that women do not have the ability to perform certain tasks so your latest generic study is, based on what you have said, not important here.

And, I am sorry but I do not understand why my statement was stupid and frankly I could not care less why you feel so.

Edited by dusken, 25 January 2005 - 06:10 PM.

[Anileve]

WOW DUDE!!!! I've been away for some time. Duskin Donut, you sure know how to make an entrance. Don't have time to read the heated debate but I have a few comments to make. 1. Anoushik jan, I love the "Rosie the Riveter" avatar. 2. I had no idea you can be so feisty I am very amused and impressed, you appear to be a full blown feminist in your posts. What can I say Dusken has that charming effect over women. . 3. Anoush jan, I think this is the most amount of posts I have ever seen from you. I am speechless.

[DominO]

Oh well, we're somewhere now, are we not?

Victim attitude?! What are you talking about? Are you comprehending anything I post at all? I never said you attacked me!

Yes! Victim attitude, let give an example from one of your own post:

Everyone immediately jumps one someone who says something like that because it is socially unacceptable to do so and not because there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Then you brought Anoushik into the picture... this is a victim attitude.

Support?! I cannot believe you are asking me for support when I told you I was not trying to convince you of my opinion!

Who told you this was about convincing, it is about supporting a claim. When you post in a forum, you should expect being answered, you can't hide behind the label: "This is my opinion, I won't support it, take it or leave it." If you do this, it means you are not here to discuss, while a discussion board is meant to discuss.

I am not going to discuss this with you any further because you are ignoring my intentions. Stop being so self-righteous. I do not care if you think you are the debating guru, you cannot make something a debate if it is not a debate.

A debate is an exchange between different people, a discussion forum is made for that purposes, you post something, and right there, the post is waited to be answered, and the subject of the post is placed there for a debate.

And just to finish it off...

There are plenty of tests that show differences between men and women whether it supports my personal observations or not. It is widely accepted, for example that men outperform women in terms of visuospatial processing and complex mathematics and women outperform men in simple mathematics and verbal processing and if you care for sources, you find them with a google search. I guarantee that they are there because I have read them doing just that.

I think nowhere have I stated that there was no differences between men and women... the question here is about "intelligence" and "creativity," both are difficult concept to deal with. Scientists are still not capable of measuring efficiently intelligence, and you are here debating about the intelligence of men vs women. There might be tests giving advantages to one against the other... when they are selective tests, but even then... this is again a question of adaptation, and there are many parameters playing there such as the social conditioning. There are hundreds, no, thousands of parameters to measures, there are subjectivity playing as well... how do you compare one type of intelligence against the other etc. Again, your argument doesn't support your theses.

Artistic community? You know nothing of the artistic community! I sent you a link that you most likely ignored and you will find that in that link, the ratio between men and women is very different. When you make such claims about the artistic community you are being as baseless and speculative as you claim I have been.

True, I am ignorant of the artistic community, because you said it so.

What you presented me as link has nothing to do with what I said, this is why I ignored it. So before accusing me understand what we are talking about. The names on this site are not the “present” artistic community, but as well includes many, MANY artists living during the period where women were considered only good at washing the dishes and raising children. Not only this, like it was not enough, those names don't represent the artistic community, but famous artists, and this very very subjective. A woman painter in the 60s, 70s(and I am even not talking about those before) was not popular just because of the society prejudices and not because women lack of imagination. So now, I ask you again, have you compared the men women ratio of the artistic community, not those of the last x years, but the artistic community NOW!!! Not about the most populars... art is something subjective, popularity doesn't indicate ones level of creativity.

Oh, again with a nameless generic study, published in the generic journal by the generic people! And it is the lastest study! Well, excuse me! Nobody said that women do not have the ability to perform certain tasks so your latest generic study is, based on what you have said, not important here.

Did you read the study in question? If no, how can you tell me that it is not important here then?

And, I am sorry but I do not understand why my statement was stupid and frankly I could not care less why you feel so.

Ask to one of your female friends to explain why.

Edited by Fadix, 25 January 2005 - 07:20 PM.