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A Biblical Case for the Death Penalty


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#21 Stormig

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 05:21 AM

There seems to be a lot of self-proclaimed religious people that follow the letter of religion, but fail to understand its spirit. These people do a lot of harm to religion. In fact, they betray it. Each one giving his own interpretation of the texts makes the Truth an object of human subjectivity. In the Orthodox Christian view, one should only consider as valid the interpretations given by the Fathers of the Church (universally recognized as such, eg. St John Chrysostom)

An insight into the spirit of some of the fathers of the church:

St. John Chrysostom, the Patriarch of Constantinople (died 406 A.D.) says: "How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue a an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God HATES the Jews, and on Judgement Day will say with those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with my murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion."


http://www.romancath...gest/ad3-4.html

#22 axel

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 05:54 AM

Stormy, you like to quote things out of context and give one-sided accounts. This has to be put back in the context of ferocious judaic anti-christianism! Learn a bit of history before posting unbalanced messages!

This does not have anything to do with the interpretations of the Scriptures as universally accepted by the Church.

#23 KnightOfArmenia

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 09:49 AM

Did I say that is what I believe, or that I believe it was a good justification? Or did I say that is what the Old Testament actually says? Considering that you are the one that are twisting words and mistranslating text, who is the nauseating one?

I personally am against death in general; I think war is a great injustice, but until all rights are wronged (such as the case with the Armenians), war will still be necessary. I think capital punishment is murder, and no one has the right to kill you if you kill another; that said, I believe that capital punishment should be applied only to cases of treason, where the actions of a person (or group of people) don't harm/kill one person, or a group of people, but an entire nation, and the unique culture therein.

And please give me the quote where the Rev. (who I have never heard of before, admittedly) says, "Go out into the streets and kill or maim any who do not agree with you." Until then, stop misquoting people, and twisting their words.

#24 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 09:52 AM

KOA,

I will try to find Rushdoony's exact quotes. Obviously, you do not know of his Chalcedon Foundation.

#25 Stormig

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 10:41 AM

Stormy, you like to quote things out of context and give one-sided accounts. This has to be put back in the context of ferocious judaic anti-christianism! Learn a bit of history before posting unbalanced messages!

This does not have anything to do with the interpretations of the Scriptures as universally accepted by the Church.

Oh I see. You had ferocious Judaic anti-Christianism, and St. Chrysostom said, "Hey, I can play this game, too," and spouted off a whole load of obscenities? Otherwise he would be all in favour of peace and respect, right?

#26 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 11:16 AM

KOA,

I need some time and some sleep before I can research the homicidal ravings of Rev. Rushdoony.

Yes, I understand how dififcult it has been for Armenians to maintain their uniqueness in a sea of Moslems. Yet, it is following the wrong path to veer as far from true Christianity as we have. Why are we following the road ot the Papists?Do you realize how bankrupt the Catholic Church is? Cardinal Ratzinger issues fatwas against whole classes of people, yet conceals much more damaging information about those within his employ.

#27 KnightOfArmenia

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 11:36 AM

The Catholic Church has pulled back on its stance against so many, especially under John Paul II; so now you say it proclaims fatwas. That's just greeeaaat.

The Church has remained the same. You, on the other hand, are a foreign born, foreign raised individual who believes that what YOU have learned MUST be the truth, and therefore any individual or institution that has a different viewpoint is not only wrong, but is evil.

Listen to yourself and the wording of your condemnations of others; you repeatedly break the commandment, "Thou shalt not judge;" you are not one to point fingers at others.

#28 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 12:57 PM

KOA,

I am not that far from the Motherland. I am a first generation American. Both my parents were born in Western Armenia. However, only one of my four grandparents was ever a member of the Apostolic faith, and she left that Church at a very early age when she married my grandfather, a Catholic.

You say that I am judging. I have every right to judge. I do not know if my confused sexuality is inborn or not, but the experiences I had at a very tender age at the hands of church personnel surely did not contibute to what is known as a "normal" sexuality. What a curse it was to be entered into child beauty contests, where the predators would become aware of me.

I am targeted by those who have violated me, yet they claim to be the upholders of morality. The Armenian Church is one of the organizations who are most vociferously calling for my condemnation, even goading their parishoners to kill persons like me. And you are chastising me for judging these religious paragons of virtue?

#29 KnightOfArmenia

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:04 PM

Since we allow lower Church officials to marry, unlike the absolute Catholic forced celibacy, I find it hard to believe that Armenian holy men abused you in any way. Spanking, that I would believe; I myself was punished, though I did deserve it :rolleyes:

#30 KnightOfArmenia

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:10 PM

Also, you are judging them based on religious matters; to do so, you, yourself, have to abide by said religion, to be able to accuse them of not following the letter (or the spirit) of the faith. Since you are not, you are, again, not one to judge.

And being angry at a religion because it frowns upon you, your lifestyle, or whatever, is not the best reason to use in a debate.

#31 Sasun

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:15 PM

America-Hye, it doesn't seem to me that you are judging. If the clergy have abused you, you have the right to raise your legitimate comtempt. On the other hand, if you say that the clergy should be killed or castrated, that would be judgement (Actually I am not sure that you don't say these things. Do you?)

#32 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:18 PM

KOA,

How can you say that I am not following the spirit of the faith? Since my divorce I have had carnal knowledge of only one individual, a young woman, and that only once in a state of inebriation.

#33 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:23 PM

I have NEVER been a parishoner in any Armenian church, Loosavorchagan, Catholic or Evangelical. I have gone to funerals and weddings in all three. Although I was married to an Armenian, we were married by an odar Protestrant minister in a spectacular outdoor setting. Me ex-wife did not want to please her parents by getting married in an Armenian Church, surrounded by the top-top level Republican friends of her parents.

#34 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:26 PM

Sasun,

I do not advocate any kind of violence against the clergy. What I advocate is getting this kind of stuff into the open. Lifetime celibacy is not a natural state. The Armenian Church is more realistic in this regard than the Catholic Church.

#35 KnightOfArmenia

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:36 PM

Remaining celibate isn't the only article of faith in the Armenian church. Observing the religious holidays, going to church, prayer; all of these are part of the foundation on which the Armenian faith is built upon.

You are not a practitioner of the Armenian faith, by your own admission; that you condemn the "religious right" and the Rev. (who, I believe, is not of the Apostolic Church?) for their views is the proof that you are judging them. If the Rev. came up and punched you in the face, yes, that is acceptable to "judge" then, because you are an injured party; but to stand on your own soapbox and preach against HIM standing on a soapbox and preaching is hypocrisy in a rather pure form.

The Christian faith is not what it was 2000 years ago, and those who claim to maintain the faith of a particular church have to follow the articles and codes of that particular church as well; open homosexuals can't be Catholic for the simple reason that Catholicism does not approve of homosexuality. The fact that people try to apply "isms" to religion is laughably absurd; calling a denomination racist or sexist because it does not approve of something or other is as judgmental as the church. Guess what? Churches don't exist to please everyone. They exist to continue a code set upon at a certain time, and provide followers of that particular code a comfortable place of worship. I don't believe Mohammed was anything other than just another Arab; that doesn't mean I go protesting at the local mosque, saying that they are liars.

And until you provide the quote that you repeatedly use, I won't give it a response.

#36 America-Hye

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 03:14 PM

I need time to search for his pronouncements. In the meanwhile, Christianity has INDEED undergone many changes in 2000 years. The last true follower of Christ died approximately 1500 years ago.What is practiced today is a melange of some Christian ideals and a Syrian sun-worshiping cult by the name of Sol Invictus that had been the religion of Constantine before he purportedly became a Christian. I will elaborate upon this later.

#37 axel

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 03:50 PM

one advice Stormy, educate yourself before making judgements. or are you just acting out of bad faith?

http://www.chrysostom.org/jews.html

#38 Sasun

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 04:01 PM

Both agree that, while Chrysostom's bombastic rhetoric is pretty offensive to modern ears, he's not coming down on the Jews out of a clear blue sky - he's primarily rebuking Judaizing Christians who attend Synagogue on Saturday and Church on Sunday, still trying to live in both worlds, and who teach others to do the same


But I don't see what is wrong with that. If somebody chooses to worship God in this way, why should someone else attack him. Is it a sin? Does Christ ever say it is wrong? I am surprised that Jews didn't criticize Judaizers since they never accepted Christ.

#39 KnightOfArmenia

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 04:41 PM

Christ... people hear one little thing and believe they have a degree in the field.

First, the Syrian god was not "Sol Invictus;" that term itself is Latin. The sun worship was basically the worship of Apollo, which had become extremely popular in the Roman worlde. Constantine simply overlapped many of the Roman Catholic holidays with the sun worshippers' holidays to let people fall into the same routine. He also combined many aspects of Mithraism into Christianity; you get bonus points if you know what Mithraism is without having to look it up.

To say that we are not "true followers of Christ," by the way, completely removes you from this conversation as a fair judge. Once again, my point; you stand on your soapbox and preach against anyone who DARES stand on another soapbox and preach! How DARE they!!

Guess what? It could just as likely be that your view on Christianity is the skewed one. Did that even occur to you? Or were you so holier-than-thou that you didn't stop to think that you could be wrong.

And Constantine was about 1700 years ago, not 1500. 1500 was approximately the time that the Battle of Avarayr was fought; Constantine converted the Roman Empire in 313 AD.

Edited by KnightOfArmenia, 21 August 2003 - 12:09 AM.


#40 joseph parikian

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 09:10 PM

America-Hye
And in your opinion what is the true Christian faith
And is there any Nomination from the more than three thousend so called Christian nominations in America that fallows the true Christian faith , can you name me one
Is the true Christian faith in your opinion have to satisfy every one
Jesus him self did not please every one because if he did why he was crosifide




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