62 replies to this topic

[Siamanto]

Oddly enough, but not surprising that every subject somehow finds its way into the Big G. How a subject like "Srika" turns into a debate on G is beyond me, but it illustrates well our "obsession" and the ensuing "paralysis".
http://hyeforum.com/...wtopic=1602&hl=

You call it "obsession," I call it a "determination." It does not have to "paralyze" it can also "motivate!"
Digressions are facts of life: I've seen discussions about "srika" turning into "erika" "amerika" "pabrika" or "intch g@ses ka!"
It's not true that most discussions "turn into a debate on G!"

I am not afraid to state that, at times we may have brought on our calamities just so we can have an excuse for our cultural sterility. Just like those who would deliberately get in situations so they would have a broken leg and an excuse to avoid going to work.
http://hyeforum.com/...wtopic=1602&hl=

That is a very serious accusation and a very complex subject i.e. what is "Armenian Culture" in the Diaspora!

I even have a problem that this forum has a whole category about the subject, and sadly enough it is the category most visited. A simple internet search using "armenia/n" as keyword will reveal hundreds of sites the majority of which are dedicated to the subject of the G.
http://hyeforum.com/...wtopic=1602&hl=

Facts (accessible to everybody:)

1- Hyeforum Statistics
Topic Posts Views
Armenia(Armenian Nation) 150 13000 (Approximative total of Forums in ARMENIA)
Life 303 9946
Love and Romance 223 8442
Genocide 668 5686
Chit Chat 175 5816
Science and Technology 376 5496
Humor 665 5061
Music 498 4178

(Very disapointing in Arts & Literature!)

2- Website Statistics (Based on Google)
"armenia" 13.5M
"+armenia +genocide" 196K or 0.15%
"armenian" 4M
"+armenian +genocide" 260K or 7%

Apparently, the numbers disagree with you!

It is as if we bask in the warmth of it, as if we find a scapegoat for our failures. If I were so brave I would state that we brought the Genocide upon ourselves just so we would have an excuse. As if, if there were no Genocide we would create one to cover our voriks. If you think the last statement is too harsh consider the fact that, of all the calamities we have seen the Genocide was that "most shameful" era of our history that was in the making for at least a thousand years and we did nothing to avert it, we did not act until the knife "voskorin er hasel". No, it had way past the "voskor", it had "hogiyin er hasel". We were so smug and content when the Turk took over the administration and the soldiering and we were pushed on the sidelines as slaves, the "loyal minority" to tend to  the secondary arts and trades that we were best at. No, not administration and governance but the menial arts and trades to buttress the Turk's hegemony. We retired to our so called pacifistic endeavors and created a whole new "cottage industry"  like  "koshkar/shoemaker" for the Turkish soldier, "demirjian/darbin" to make swords and daggers for the Turkish soldier, "tufenkjian" forging muskets for the Turkish soldier, "topjian", the cannon maker for the Turkish army...It was an almost self fulfilling prophesy when we went our merry ways knowing that some day those "shoes" would walk all over us, those swords and daggers would cut our own throats, those muskets and cannons would be used to massacre us en masse...
And now! We create a whole new "cottage industry" known as the Big G.
http://hyeforum.com/...wtopic=1602&hl=

A very serious accusation!
Your reasoning remind of those abusive males who accuse women - their victims - of encouraging such abusive behavior in themself! That's only one view, not mine!
Even if we admit that it may have been the case, Armenians/Women, today, are willing to fight for their rights. Period!

Maybe now, finally we will take our own destiny in hand and in spite of the Turk we will be the "captain of our ship".
What ship?
We don't even have navigable waters!!
:

http://hyeforum.com/...wtopic=1602&hl=

Check with Maral, she may be looking for a "captain" for her Arche!
Personally, I don't intend to join you! As a Pisces, I will be staying here with the Mermaids: I enjoy their company!
By the way, please make sure it leaves shore and does not sink! As a Nation, we can't afford more misfortunes!

[Siamanto]

Once Turkey is engaged in neighborly relations with us the stereotypes will cease to stick. And if they do stick, it won't be by much. Once those stereotypes are gone Turks will be able to objectiviely question their history better; not just extreme, fringe liberals like Taner Akcam, but moderates and maybe even some leaning right.

Of course! Isn't that obvious!

Wrong. When Turkish professors at Turkish universities are publicly declaring the Genocide a truth, the process is already further along than we had ever imagined. A younger generation of Turks, many of whom I have personally engaged, are interested in these questions- these are the beginnings, beginnings that should have been realized decades ago but, in large part due to our own meddling, are only occurring now.

Is your goal seeking the Truth?? or simply proving YOUR points?
Didn't you say, earlier:

Countless dollars and hours have been spent on fruitless efforts. Instead of compelling Turkey to admit their wrongdoings, we have permitted their government to propagate and reinforce pre-existing stereotypes of Armenians as sneaky, back-stabbing traitors, trying once again to hurt the 'innocent' Turk.

Did we or did we not have achievements?

And as Turkey creeps closer and closer to EU ascension those things will disappear.

Of course! It is also "true" that tomorrow, I will drive to Las Vegas, make a fortune and become a millionaire!
Does anybody want to share my winnings? If yes, you'll have to invest my risk free business proposition!

[gamavor]

Armenian Genocide is NOT Armenian Issue!!! It is Turkish Issue and those that are alies of Turkey (i.e. USA, EU, Israel, number of Arab countries).

The reason why many Diaspora Armenians are engaged with this issue is becasue of their citizenship. As citizens of USA, Europe, etc. they are entilted to express their views.

In order to put an end to this story, the Government of Republic of Armenia should demand putting the Armenian Genocide issue in the agenda of the United Nations without participation in any commissions and deliberations with the Turkish representatives.

The validity of Kars Treaty, as well as Moskow Treaty concerning the state border between Armenia and Turkey, and demand for material compensation and restitution of the land to the heirs of Genocide surviviors should also be included in the UN prospective resolution.

[DominO]

Armenian Genocide is NOT Armenian Issue!!! It is Turkish Issue and those that are alies of Turkey (i.e. USA, EU, Israel, number of Arab countries).

The reason why many Diaspora Armenians are engaged with this issue is becasue of their citizenship. As citizens of USA, Europe, etc. they are entilted to express their views.

In order to put an end to this story, the Government of Republic of Armenia should demand putting the Armenian Genocide issue in the agenda of the United Nations without participation in any commissions and deliberations with the Turkish representatives.

The validity of Kars Treaty, as well as Moskow Treaty concerning the state border between Armenia and Turkey, and demand for material compensation and restitution of the land to the heirs of Genocide surviviors should also be included in the UN prospective resolution.

Quite logical, I think your view could be shortened by only saying this: "Since we should not try pleasing the Turks to recognise the genocide, because they won't recognise it in the first place, we can question their territorial intergrity, since that we do that or don't, won't changed anything in what concerns Turkey and the recognition of the genocide."

One of the reasons why Armenian organisations were easy questioning Turkey's integrity, was because in their opinion, this would only prevent Turkey to recognise the genocide.

They do not understand that, by having idiots like Hala***oglus disgustly reverting the role of the victims and the aggressors, they are making understand Armenians, that we don't need to try pleasing them.

Edited by Fadix, 15 January 2005 - 05:24 PM.

[Sasun]

Siamanto, you are making some good points, I particularly liked the statistics part which was quite surprising to me. The reason is in this forum we are told quite obsessively day in and out that there is a Genocide obsession. And it seems as if it is true, because a lie told many times creates the impression that it is true.

I will be short, to me it is more simple, and there are two parts in it.

1. As a moral question - Genocide recognition is a matter of basic justice. Any moral person would be for the acknowledgement of the truth, and if we Armenians did not consider this an important issue something would be wrong.
2. As a practical question - Genocide recognition would be an important asset for our republic. Landlocked, small Armenia will always have a hard time to become a decent country in terms of economy and its ability to contain challenges by hostile neighbors. A lot has been stolen from us, and if we get back what belongs to us then we can easily be what we deserve to be - a decent country where life is not very hard. A widespread recognition of the Genocide would much help our cause of getting what rightfully belongs to us.

Edited by Sasun, 15 January 2005 - 07:30 PM.

[DominO]

You call it "obsession," I call it a "determination." It does not have to "paralyze" it can also "motivate!"
Digressions are facts of life: I've seen discussions about "srika" turning into "erika" "amerika" "pabrika" or "intch g@ses ka!"
It's not true that most discussions "turn into a debate on G!"
That is a very serious accusation and a very complex subject i.e. what is "Armenian Culture" in the Diaspora!
Facts (accessible to everybody:)

1- Hyeforum Statistics
Topic                                                          Posts      Views 
Armenia(Armenian Nation)                  150    13000  (Approximative total of Forums in ARMENIA)
Life                                                                      303  9946
Love and Romance                                      223  8442
Genocide                                                          668    5686
Chit Chat                                                        175    5816
Science and Technology                          376    5496
Humor                                                              665    5061
Music                                                                  498    4178

(Very disapointing in Arts & Literature!)

2- Website Statistics (Based on Google)
"armenia"                                            13.5M
"+armenia  +genocide"                  196K              or  0.15%
"armenian"                                          4M
"+armenian  +genocide"                260K                or  7%

You remember me not so long ago, I was "discussing" with a Turk claiming that Armenians have no life, and that we were all bunch of genocide obsessed idiots... The guy happened to use hyeforum as example.

I told him how ironic it was since statistically speaking, it was actualy the "life" forum that had the most post, followed by life and romance.

[Siamanto]

I will be short, to me it is more simple, and there are two parts in it.

1. As a moral question - Genocide recognition is a matter of basic justice. Any moral person would be for the acknowledgement of the truth, and if we Armenians did not consider this an important issue something would be wrong.
2. As a practical question - Genocide recognition would be an important asset for our republic. Landlocked, small Armenia will always have a hard time to become a decent country in terms of economy and its ability to contain challenges by hostile neighbors. A lot has been stolen from us, and if we get back what belongs to us then we can easily be what we deserve to be - a decent country where life is not very hard. A widespread recognition of the Genocide would much help our cause of getting what rightfully belongs to us.

I apologize if I was too long!

Yes! I totally agree with you! Unfortunately, we still have to justify the obvious!

And it seems as if it is true, because a lie told many times creates the impression that it is true.

But false impressions are usually based on misinterpretations!
For instance, the following lie:
"Turkey belongs to Europe."
Is usually understood as: Jurks belong to - i.e. are part of - the European Community.
While it means:
The Lands that are TEMPORARILY called Turkey belong to Europeans!
It will be eventually rectified!

[Sasun]

I apologize if I was too long!

You were not long, just enough But I chose to be short

For instance, the following lie:
"Turkey belongs to Europe."
Is usually understood as: Jurks belong to - i.e. are part of - the European Community.
While it means:
The Lands that are TEMPORARILY called Turkey belong to Europeans!
It will be eventually rectified!

That's an interesting interpretation Siamanto, it would be a nice ending to the Turkic conquests of the lands to which they don't deserve.
Another alternative way of the mentioned lands becoming the possession of Europeans would be also that Turks themselves become truly European, much like Hungarians who also descended from Turkic tribes but today we don't see any traces of that.

[Siamanto]

Another alternative way of the mentioned lands becoming the possession of Europeans would be also that Turks themselves become truly European, much like Hungarians who also descended from Turkic tribes but today we don't see any traces of that.

One difference: Jurks are not necessarily - genetically - descendents of Jurkic tribes!
Their genetic pool is mainly non-Jurkic and stolen, their lands are stolen, their cultural artifacts are stolen etc.
Their medieval, military minded mindset is ALL that is authentic Jurkic: you take that away and you have Greeks/Armenians/Assyrians/...

[Sasun]

One difference: Jurks are not necessarily - genetically - descendents of Jurkic tribes!
Their genetic pool is mainly non-Jurkic and stolen, their lands are stolen, their cultural artifacts are stolen etc.
Their medieval, military minded mindset is ALL that is authentic Jurkic: you take that away and you have Greeks/Armenians/Assyrians/...

Siamanto, I agree, they don't have anything authentic Turkish other than aggressive habits inherited from their ancestors. I am not a believer in genetics in such matters, one of the reasons precisely being that our close genetic brothers are our enemies. So to my mind its all the same regardless of the genes, but they could get Europeanized somehow, I don't think it is an impossible thing to expect, though it may not happen.

P.S. Is there any reason to call Turks "Jurks"? The word "Turk" itself does not have nice associations, so I don't get why "Jurk" is preferred in such cases.

[Siamanto]

So to my mind its all the same regardless of the genes, but they could get Europeanized somehow, I don't think it is an impossible thing to expect, though it may not happen.

Yes! It may or may not happen!

P.S. Is there any reason to call Turks "Jurks"? The word "Turk" itself does not have nice associations

I don't like using bad words! Isn't "ph**k " a euphemism for you know what?
Are you encouraging me to use words with "bad associations?" You should be ashamed of yourself! I thought you were asdvadzavakh!

Edited by Siamanto, 19 January 2005 - 01:58 AM.

[Sasun]

I don't like using bad words! Isn't "ph**k " a euphemism for you know what?

I am not sure what you mean Have you seen it somewhere?

Are you encouraging me to use words with "bad associations?" You should be ashamed of yourself! I thought you were asdvadzavakh!

Well, I was just wondering if you were trying to say "Jurk" in order to give a negative valuation, I wanted to point out that we Armenians already associate many things negative with the word "Turk", and I can't understand why you were doing it.

BTW, I am astvadzaser, not astvadzavakh

[Anonymouse]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

[ED]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

Anon behaive, I will tollarate your sarcasm in most part, but not on this one!

[Anonymouse]

Anon behaive,   I will tollarate your sarcasm in most part, but not on this one!

I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If you do not like it do not read. I was behaving. But it appears you do not like to here contrarian views. In any event, that is what I believe.

[ED]

I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If you do not like it do not read. I was behaving. But it appears you do not like to here contrarian views. In any event, that is what I believe.

there is a defarance beetwin contrarian view and musterbation, especialy when it comes to a Genocide section, have, and this is not anyway ONLY CONCERNS YOU, respect and dignaty when posting here in Genocide section

do i need to explain my self any farther?

[Sasun]

I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If you do not like it do not read. I was behaving. But it appears you do not like to here contrarian views. In any event, that is what I believe.

Anon, I respect your right to have opinions and express. I believe Ed does too. Sometimes your posts are not clear - were you trying to express an opinion, or trying to cause a controversy, or not trying to cause a controversy but nonetheless not caring about the consequencies anyway. That is how I understand Edward's response above. Just a few simple observations
We just want to keep everything easy and not cause any more fights

[Anonymouse]

Why is it assumed that I am trying to "cause a controversy". I grow more and more dissappointed with these forums and the anti-intellectual stance it takes that because some people air views contrary to what is believed by most, that they are trying to "incite something". I cannot help that some people react uncomfortably to uncomfortable views. If you do not like it, do not read and not reply. I find this mindset prevalent not just with Edward but with Domino, et al. What a tragedy truth evokes!

[Sasun]

Why is it assumed that I am trying to "cause a controversy".

I would rather say it may appear so. I don't think you want to provoke fights, but some people don't always get your sarcastic comments. I think I get it most of the time, but perhaps not always.

[Armat]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

I’ll be interested to know where that precise fault line is where a tragedy and the denials of the perpetrators and subsequent decades of Armenian efforts for recognition has now “started” to turn into a fetish.Enlighten me please.