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Opening Of The Border


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#1 hytga

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Posted 07 May 2004 - 09:27 PM

ok. i'm not an economist nor a business major. but i jast can's see why is it important opening the border with turkey. Upon opening the border and establishment of open business relations armenian economy will go bankrupt. it will be flooded with turkish goods, and the local manufacturers will suffer, and consequently lobs will be lost. especiall now the domestic industry is not strong and it will not be able to compete with yet another importer. armenia is already flooed with persian stuff.

anyway as i see it, it is better for the borders to remain closed at lest until the local economy and the manufacturing infrastructure recovers.

What do u think?

#2 Stormig

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 05:45 AM

All this thing I hear about foreign goods being better than Armenian... No country will recover or prosper if left the way it is. You need competition, that push, for your manufacturer to seek out more efficient ways to make things better and cheaper. The Japanese caused lots of pain for the Amerikanskis (just ask about Xerox), but eventually the latter had to learn from them, and learn they did. If you let your manufacturer have his way, he's going to be like the Brazilian manufacturer of the early 90's whose best option for you will be a 60's style turbine washing machine (you know the one you feed from the top and which gyrates 180 degrees cw and ccw) and who will make you regret not having brought your Bosch with you. I hear all that has changed now for the better and it wasn't by "protecting" anyone, for isn't necessity the mother of invention (read, innovation)? True, maybe those that didn't merit to stay on the market did go off the market, but why support them then against the lot of your population? In Armenia's case, this will mean an abundance of raw materials which she perhaps doesn't have and which doesn't at all provide that minimal chance for a cutting edge, say. I think TV's and tractors are long overdue.

#3 bellthecat

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 11:53 AM

There is probably a section of Armenian society that has prospered because of the blockade. Prospered at the expense of the majority.

Except from those sort of "spivs" I don't see how anyone could want the blockade to continue for even a day longer than Turkey maintains it. And of course there are more important issues than just freeing the people of Armenia from suffering from overpriced, inferior goods.

But, as for the opening of the border - it isn't going to happen anytime soon. mad.gif

#4 Vigil

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 12:55 PM

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Edited by Vigil, 31 May 2004 - 04:42 AM.


#5 hytga

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 02:23 PM

storming i agree with the competition thing. but the problem is that the local manufacturers will go bancrupt. as of now they are very week, they will not have the capacity to compete. what you're saying is like throwing a newborn puppy to fight wolfs. and you would expect the puppy to survive? not until it has the capacity to fight. first it has to be strong enough to survive, and then compete

#6 mx5

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Posted 09 May 2004 - 07:15 AM

QUOTE (hytga @ May 8 2004, 02:23 PM)
storming i agree with the competition thing. but the problem is that the local manufacturers will go bancrupt. as of now they are very week, they will not have the capacity to compete. what you're saying is like throwing a newborn puppy to fight wolfs. and you would expect the puppy to survive? not until it has the capacity to fight. first it has to be strong enough to survive, and then compete

exactly what is said above there.I will give you Lebanon as an example:

we in Lebanon had an average economy but not superb ,mostly dependent on small and medium industry,after a new "economicaly very libral"billioner Prime minister took over the country the protactionizm was lifted the borders have oppened without taking into consideration the interests of his own people.

so the entire market was flooded with Chinese,Turkish and Syrian products,you tell me what happened,the whole national product came into stagnation,hundreds of businesses are closing their doors thousand workers are being layed out other thousands are keeping line at the western embassy doors for inevitable immigration.

if Armenia wants to make a good product doesnt need to take the technology from the turks he can go directly to the source to japan,China,Taiwan,Coria,malisia,and more, all these would be happy to invest there,and cocequently could even export them to surrounding countries even to turkey itself in the future.

Which is exactely the point of Turkey, to hit when you are at your weakest,he knows very well that sooner or later it is inevitable that Armenia to become an Industrial and technological center ,at least due to its smart and inteligent and technology-wise people on one hand and vast Diaspora on the other which could easily become product exporter to Turkey itself rather than importer ,so he is striving to work on both fronts:open the border with armenia as soon as possible control the economy there before its too late AND play the theme of contradiction between Armenia And Diaspora to nullifye Latters vast possibilities which could play crucial role later on in Armenias development.

to achieve this goal he is even turning his back to his long time ally Azerbaijan and jeoparising the relation with it!!!

Edited by mx5, 09 May 2004 - 12:25 PM.


#7 Stormig

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 04:38 AM

I am entirely ready to learn - what sort of "improvement" does anyone envision from maintenance of the status quo, in any way, shape or form, so that to "be strong enough to kick butt"? Why hasn't it helped so far? When is it going to? Has the closing of the border actually aided those they fear for the most at the moment? For how much longer is it to remain closed for some people to please feel ready to take the risk? And like I hinted, why is flood of what is demanded necessarily going to be a bad thing? Why is it not going to have advantage for the small industry, for any portion of it? OK, it might be, but how do you know for certain and how does crippling someone "save" them from walking out and being run over by a car? Moreover, you don't need to have an open border with Turkey for cheap trash to flood in. Trade with Turkey goes on through Georgia already and it is just being costlier for the average Joe (or should I say Hovhannes) for that cheap trash already, what a waste already, plus hasn't anyone heard of Chinese bikes for $5 and sachets of garlic for a few pence, none of which can remotely have anything to do with Turkey (correct me if I am wrong)? And what makes anyone think Armenia is more expensive than her neighbours? Easy access means more demand from Armenia herself where viable. Such is life. Some you win, some you lose. I think more than the border, there is the matter of laws and regulations yet to be cleaned up. As long as the investor fears for his investments, then, yes, flow will indeed be in one direction - IN. dry.gif It shouldn't be a precondition for opening of the border, but it should be a priority issue to solve, not something to cling onto like your life and honour depends on the border. Where else in the world do you see such BS blockading and some that are actually in favour of this? I'm sorry, it just doesn't make a figment of sense to me, and I'm not an expert either, just a layperson.

#8 hytga

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 11:56 AM

storming it's not that i'm totally against opening of the border, but i'm questioning the pluses and minuses. to my opinion there are more minuses to opening of the border right now, than pluses. i might be wrong, but that's just my opinion.

Edited by hytga, 10 May 2004 - 11:57 AM.


#9 Boghos

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Posted 10 May 2004 - 01:24 PM

A small country such as Armenia has on a net basis a lot to gain from having an open economy. Of course there are some industries that will not survive but that means that these industries are being subsidized by the Armenian consumer. In other words, Armenians pay more for the privilege of having an Armenian made something.

We need to be competitive, for that we need the lowest possible cost inputs. Armenia will never be an industrial powerhouse, one would have to be delirious to believe that. Our vocations is in light industry and services with some specialty extractive and agricultural products thrown in. Opening the borders has the same rationale as breaking up the telecom monopoly: cheaper and better services. Certainly in the beginning unemployment might even go up, but if we don´t believe we can compete, in the right places, then what is the point of all the arguments about our industriousness and otherwise above average entrepreneurial and inventive capacities ? Should we fear Turkey ? Should we fear their cheap cookies, cheap textiles and so on ? Of course not, as Stormig mentions they are already there, but are just more expensive given the cost of going through Georgia. Opening the border means growing up, accepting the reality of a competitive world AND profiting from it. Armenians move and have moved all over the world often starting from scratch, not even knowing the local language properly and the like. What kind of argument can be made for keeping the border closed ? None, unless our self assessment is 180 degrees wrong.

Edited by Boghos, 10 May 2004 - 01:26 PM.


#10 Guest_DoJudo_*

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 01:11 PM

I also think opening the border will cause many many problems for Armenia and Armenians. Afterall the border is with TURKEY. Iran and Georgia should remain the trading borders. Armenia has very little manufactured products and the current deep corruption within the government will use the opening of the border not for the benefit of the country, but their own pockets. I would go as far to say Armenia should start producing the same products that are being imported into the country, such as military equipment, and maybe even try to make a descent car. The entire world knows that the Armenian Genocide will be accepted only if the country Armenia has a strong Economy and Military.
Open corruption has to stop. Bribe taking police is the first thing that should stop.

#11 Stormig

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE (DoJudo @ Jul 22 2004, 07:11 PM)
The entire world knows that the Armenian Genocide will be accepted only if the country Armenia has a strong Economy and Military.

"Entire world" sounds a bit too daring. Also, what is an economically and militarily strong Armenia going to do to get the genocide recognised? Say "Boo!"?
Like I said, I don't see how anything is going to get better if things keep the way they are. Someone enlighten me if they're so sure of it.

#12 ED

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 02:06 PM

Stormig can you expend on, "the way things are"?


Opening of the border one must realize is always beneficial to sides involved and beyond.

However, in the case of Armenia-Turkey border if I’m not mistaking here, Turkey is the one who always put front preconditions and terms. ROA’s official stand, as far as border issue is concerned, had stated many times in the past, is ready to open the border with no preconditions or terms, and there was a never an issue regarding the Genocide. And I don’t believe Armenia ever set a precondition regarding Cypress.

#13 Stormig

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 02:12 PM

The way things are, I meant with the border closed. What is going to trigger change for better if things are the way they are?
That's the bizarre thing - the closing of the border has everything to do with Turkey and nothing to do with Armenia (aside from Armenia sharing the border) and as you said there are no preconditions or terms, yet people sitting on their arses can pontificate for the preservation of the "work of the Turk." rolleyes.gif
As for Cyprus, that was three decades ago and even the EU is moving beyond it now.

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 04:45 PM

"Ujeghi mot mishtel tuilne meghavor". Well Turkey did militarily cease Kars, Ardahan, and Erezerum from the then Armenian Government under Alexander Khatissian. Karabagh was won through military battle. As far as the strength in economy, it's a major factor why some of the countries in the world are siding with Turkey on the issue of Genocide. If history repeats itself then Financial and Military power should be a priority for Armenia. But I do agree that in the direction the country is headed at the moment this dream will never become a reality for any Armenian.




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