64 replies to this topic

[abass80]

Armenians of Turkey speak against adoption of Armenian Genocide Resolution by U.S. Congress
02.06.2007 14:46 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Recently a U.S. Congress delegation had official meeting with Turkish leadership in Ankara. At the end of the meeting congressmen departed for Istanbul, where they visited the Armenian Patriarchy of Constantinople. “Lraber”, the bulletin of the Patriarchy reports in its May 31 issue that during their meeting with Archbishop Mesrop Moutafian U.S. Congress delegation members discussed issues concerning the Armenian Genocide Resolution, assassination of Hrant Dink, as well as murders of catholic priest Santoro in Trabzon and three evangelic missioners in Malatia. They also touched upon the bill on grounds of the community, which President Ahmed Necdet Sezer interposed his veto on, Turkish-Armenian relations, as well as Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s initiative aimed at establishing a joint commission of Turkish and Armenian historians.

According to “Lraber” answering congressmen’s questions the Patriarch said, “Proceeding from intergovernmental relations between Armenia and Turkey, as well as relations between local Armenians and the Turkish nation, we do not treat positively the Armenian Genocide Resolution introduced in the U.S. Congress. We cannot deny the tragic events of the historical past.
The history will never forgive actions of İttihat ve Teraki party, aimed at punishing not only armed Armenians who rebelled against the state, but also all Armenians residing on the Territory of Turkey. One and a half million Turkish citizens with Armenian descent were annihilated in Syrian deserts. Today 70 000 Armenians live in our country. We should not forget and those Armenians who adopted Islam in order to escape deportation. Since they continue to speak in Armenian, they remain faithful to the Armenian culture, and irrespective of religious difference we consider them as our compatriots. And just the opposite, we do not appreciate actions of the Armenian Diaspora, which pushes forward the historical events as subject of disputes. We –Armenians of Turkey, together with our Muslim neighbors support social and trade relations. We do not want our relations to be spoiled with neighbor –Muslim Turks because of such resolutions. It is the time to develop a policy aimed at future. The Republic of Armenia borders upon Turkey. Since change of borders is out of the question, consequently Armenians of Turkey are interested in approaching the two neighbor-states. We are connected politically with the Turkish State and we have religions and cultural ties with Armenia. We –Armenians of Turkey, do not want anything except peace. While the unbridled approach of Diasporan representatives is a disturber of that peace,” “Azg” reports.

Edited by abass80, 03 June 2007 - 09:17 AM.

[phantom22]

The pigeon is sitting in the slaughterhouse! What do you expect from him?

[abass80]

i don't expect from him to criticize the turkish government or their policies, but i also don't expect from him to act as a turkish mouthpiece and promote their agenda every time he meets foreign officials!

[Aratta-Kingdom]

What Motivates Patriarch
Mesrob's Political Rhetoric?

By Harut Sassounian
The California Courier

It is not always easy to figure out what prompts the Armenian Patriarch of
Constantinople (Istanbul), Mesrob II, to make at times conflicting and
controversial statements.
Those familiar with the oppressive conditions within Turkey understand full
well that the Patriarch and his flock are hostages in the hands of the Turkish
government. Consequently, it is clear that some of his statements are made
under coercion and duress.
In April, when the Patriarch flew to Dallas to participate in a politically
tendentious conference organized by a Turkish group, Archbishop Khajag
Barsamian, the Primate of the Eastern (U.S.) Diocese, issued a press release
expressing his opposition to this one-sided "Armenian-Turkish dialogue." The Primate
said that the Patriarch "has a very limited ability to freely express his true
thoughts and concerns because of oppressive Turkish free-speech laws."
Furthermore, in a letter dated April 12, 2007, to Dr. Gerald R. Turner, the
President of Southern Methodist University, Primate Barsamian rightly described
the Patriarch as "a virtual 'prisoner of conscience' of the Turkish
government." Abp. Barsamian, who is originally from Turkey, knows well the situation of
the Armenian community in Istanbul. His letter prompted the University to
cancel its sponsorship of the conference.
However, not all of the Patriarch's political statements and actions are
dictated by the Turkish government. Knowing what is expected of him, the Patriarch
sometimes, without even being asked by Ankara, makes statements that he knows
will please his Turkish masters. By doing so, he may be hoping that he would
be in the good graces of Turkish officials, leading to the reduction of the
government's oppressive measures toward the local Armenian community.
In his dealings with Turkish officials, the Patriarch may exploit the
Armenian Diaspora's opposition to his pro-Turkish stance by telling the government
that he risks losing all credibility unless genuine concessions are made to
improve the conditions of the Armenian community.
At times, the Patriarch's actions completely baffle the Armenian public both
within and outside Turkey. A couple of years ago, he disappeared from the
Patriarchate for several weeks without any notice or explanation of his
whereabouts. Despite the fact that Istanbul Armenians are fervently devoted to their
church and clerical leadership, many members of his flock are not too pleased
with his idiosyncrasies. He has publicly feuded with Catholicos Karekin II as
well as the publishers of the local Armenian press, including Hrant Dink, the
recently assassinated editor of Agos newspaper. Those who disagree with him
describe the 51-year-old Patriarch as "highly intelligent, but brash."
Which of the foregoing three explanations account for the Patriarch's recent
statement on the Armenian Genocide? During a meeting with a U.S. congressional
delegation at the Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul on May 30, the Patriarch
told the visiting Members of Congress: "From the perspective of both
Turkish-Armenia bilateral relations, and relations between the Armenians of Turkey and
the Turkish public, we are not positive about the Armenian Genocide Bill
before the US Congress. But we also don't deny historical facts. The position taken
by the Party of Unity and Progress in punishing all Armenians of Turkey, and
not just those Armenian groups who had taken up arms against the government,
can never be forgiven. One and a half million Armenian citizens perished in the
deserts of Syria, and today in our country there are only 70,000 Armenians.
It should also not be forgotten that at the time of the deportation our ethnic
Armenian citizens said they were Muslims in order to be saved from banishment.
They still speak Armenian and live the Armenian culture, and we count them as
part of us even if their religion is different."
Despite the fact that the Patriarch knew full well that the Turkish
government and various Turkish ultra-nationalist groups would strongly object to his
statement that 1.5 million Armenians were killed, he went ahead and posted his
remarks in Turkish and English on the Patriarchate's official website. Not
surprisingly, several Turkish denialists immediately criticized him and questioned
his facts on the Genocide.
It is not clear why the Patriarch chose to make such candid remarks to the
congressional delegation and then proceeded to make them public? Could this be
his way of retaliating against the Turkish government's lack of responsiveness
to his repeated pleas on behalf of the local Armenian community? In recent
years, the Patriarch has said and done many things in support of Turkish
interests, including his energetic lobbying on behalf of Turkey's application for
membership to the European Union, without receiving anything in return to better
the lot of his people.
The Turkish government should recognize that the Western world automatically
dismisses the Patriarch's pro-Turkish efforts and statements, knowing full
well that they are made under pressure. In fact, each time that the Turkish
government forces the Patriarch to denounce the recognition of Armenian Genocide by
foreign parliaments, Ankara inadvertently reconfirms the autocratic nature of
its regime.
Diaspora Armenians must realize that if they want the Patriarch to play a
more assertive role in defending Armenian interests, they should then develop
sufficient political clout in Washington and other capitals in order to protect
him and his community from any potential harm from Turkish hardliners. For
example, the Chief Rabbi of Turkey knows that the Turkish leaders would not dare
touch him or members of the Jewish community because there would rightfully be
a powerful backlash from Israel, the United States and practically every
European country. Can the Armenian government and the Armenian Diaspora provide a
similar assurance to the Armenian Patriarch?
Meanwhile, there is no question that the Patriarch Mesrob II knows how to
gauge Turkey's domestic political mood better than his detractors living abroad.
Under the current situation of resurgent Turkish nationalism, the Patriarch
may well adopt a hands-off posture by telling government officials that as a
religious leader he can only make pronouncements on spiritual issues and abstain
from involvement in political matters.

[DeLaLa]

i don't expect from him to criticize the turkish government or their policies, but i also don't expect from him to act as a turkish mouthpiece and promote their agenda every time he meets foreign officials!

ok abass80, let me ask you the question then what official behaviour exactly you expect , what would be the ideal behaviour of mutafyan for you ?
another question is also , how much do you people really know about the present most popular turkish parties in turkey ?
... a lot of people ge-hachen in this forum with no intelligent arguments ...

Edited by DeLaLa, 19 July 2007 - 07:35 PM.

[abass80]

first of all i have to say that i understand that the role of mutafian is not an easy one! he has to consider the well being of the armenian population of turkey and that is why he has to be careful of what statements he makes when he is in public!

now coming to ur first question, my personal opinion is that when it comes to the matter of the recognition of the armenian genocide from other countries, if he can not say anything that will be in favor of that (because he might get into trouble) he can at least keep quiet! i don't think that anyone in turkey will blame him for keeping quiet!

as for ur second question we know that in turkey the main political parties are AKP and CHP and according to the last polls MHP will also enter the parliament, something that is bad not only for the armenians but for all the minorities (it's not like the other two parties like the armenians. they hate us the same but the MHP public states that)! anor hamar yerp g@ hachenk it means that we know a couple of things!

[DeLaLa]

first of all i have to say that i understand that the role of mutafian is not an easy one! he has to consider the well being of the armenian population of turkey and that is why he has to be careful of what statements he makes when he is in public!

now coming to ur first question, my personal opinion is that when it comes to the matter of the recognition of the armenian genocide from other countries, if he can not say anything that will be in favor of that (because he might get into trouble) he can at least keep quiet! i don't think that anyone in turkey will blame him for keeping quiet!

as for ur second question we know that in turkey the main political parties are AKP and CHP and according to the last polls MHP will also enter the parliament, something that is bad not only for the armenians but for all the minorities (it's not like the other two parties like the armenians. they hate us the same but the MHP public states that)! anor hamar yerp g@ hachenk it means that we know a couple of things!

301 !!!

[abass80]

and the article 301 of the turkish constitution is the answer to which part of my post?

[DeLaLa]

abass , none of these parties regognize genocide so its actually choosing the best party among the shitty ones .

about mutafyan ... its unrealistic what argument you gave . he is an armenian prominent in turkey who is in official media life . in his position he has to in very first place make sure that the armnians today living in turkey are safe ... no matter with right or wrong arguments . humanism before armenian idealism ... hasgetsar ?

[abass80]

yeghpair hasg@tsa te inch gouzes @sel, yev kou @satzit hagarg chem!
the only difference is that i do not think that mutafian has the right to talk against the recognition of the armenian genocide by third countries! if he is not for it, he should keep quiet rather than criticize it!

[DeLaLa]

Abass , can you please post media articles where mutafyan stated such things as you say above ? so we can discuss this matter in a more realistic way ?

[abass80]

read the first post of the topic!

[DeLaLa]

read the first post of the topic!

ok i read , but i think you didnt understand the meaning , or understood it wrong .
as i told you before , mutafyan is a prominent armenian who has the responsibility of keeping armenians safe in turkey . if usa recognizes genocide officially then abassjan , you can maybe imagine that the armenians living in turkey will go through hell in that case .
in the article above , mutafyan doesnt state anywhere that he denies armenian genocide . he is basically worried of the situation of armenians living in turkey in case of a usa recognition .

[Arpa]

ok i read , but i think you didnt understand the meaning , or understood it wrong .
as i told you before , mutafyan is a prominent armenian who has the responsibility of keeping armenians safe in turkey . if usa recognizes genocide officially then abassjan , you can maybe imagine that the armenians living in turkey will go through hell in that case .
in the article above , mutafyan doesnt state anywhere that he denies armenian genocide . he is basically worried of the situation of armenians living in turkey in case of a usa recognition .

For whatever f**** reason are Armenians still living in Turkey?
The Patriarchate? WTF. Why do we need a Patriarchate in a country that does not even recognize Armenia as a country? Just like Antelias we need another Catholicosate in Glendale like a hole in te head. Don't you remember the 1001 churches of Ani?
Get TF out of there! Who? When? Anyone said Istanbul is an Armenian city? Not even that Khendanotsi Khorenatsi. Despite the fact, and in spite of how he tried to hebraisize our history, we did not become the 13th tribe of Israel.

Edited by Arpa, 22 July 2007 - 12:58 PM.

[DeLaLa]

For whatever f**** reason are Armenians still living in Turkey?
The Patriarchate? WTF. Why do we need a Patriarchate in a country that does not even recognize Armenia as a country? Just like Antelias we need another Catholicosate in Glendale like a hole in te head. Don't you remember the 1001 churches of Ani?
Get TF out of there! Who? When? Anyone said Istanbul is an Armenian city? Not even that Khendanotsi Khorenatsi. Despite the fact, and in spite of how he tried to hebraisize our history, we did not become the 13th tribe of Israel.

see arpa , if you would know something about armenian history you wouldnt ask this question gere now and today . you are amusing me really ...

[Aratta-Kingdom]

"ok i read , but i think you didnt understand the meaning , or understood it wrong ."


if we read in between the lines of your posts, this would be the message you try to pass out...



"as i told you before , mutafyan is a prominent armenian who has the responsibility of keeping armenians safe in turkey ."

it's not his job to keep the armenians safe in turkey. he is appointed by the turkish government supposedly to present the armenians of turkey.





"if usa recognizes genocide officially"

'if' or 'when'?



"then abassjan , you can maybe imagine that the armenians living in turkey will go through hell in that case ."


is that a threat?





"in the article above , mutafyan doesnt state anywhere that he denies armenian genocide."



one must be a moron to belive that he would ever do. on the other hand, since the turkish government almost always speaks out on his behalf, i wouldn't be surprised to read a headline on the turkish newspaper claming ..."mutafyan denies the armenian(and not only) allegations".





"he is basically worried of the situation of armenians living in turkey in case of a usa recognition ."


the issue of the genocide is a threat to the turkish state. the government of turkey has much more to worry about than the armenians who live in turkey.

[Anoushik]

if usa recognizes genocide officially then abassjan , you can maybe imagine that the armenians living in turkey will go through hell in that case .

So, are you actually against the recognition of the genocide by the US government?

[DominO]

For whatever f**** reason are Armenians still living in Turkey?
The Patriarchate? WTF. Why do we need a Patriarchate in a country that does not even recognize Armenia as a country? Just like Antelias we need another Catholicosate in Glendale like a hole in te head. Don't you remember the 1001 churches of Ani?
Get TF out of there! Who? When? Anyone said Istanbul is an Armenian city? Not even that Khendanotsi Khorenatsi. Despite the fact, and in spite of how he tried to hebraisize our history, we did not become the 13th tribe of Israel.

WTF It was the first country which recognized Armenia. Hmmm..., they're nice. They've recognized Armenia to delimitate its territory out of fear that if others does it before them, they might include some ''more'' land. They did it out of paranoia.

[DominO]

ok i read , but i think you didnt understand the meaning , or understood it wrong .
as i told you before , mutafyan is a prominent armenian who has the responsibility of keeping armenians safe in turkey . if usa recognizes genocide officially then abassjan , you can maybe imagine that the armenians living in turkey will go through hell in that case .
in the article above , mutafyan doesnt state anywhere that he denies armenian genocide . he is basically worried of the situation of armenians living in turkey in case of a usa recognition .

Those Armenians have no business there anymore..., that they leave will be for the better. They can move in Armenia, it's not like Turkey has that high of a life standard to justify them staying there.

[abass80]

DeLaLa i know that the recognition of the armenian genocide by the US and the international community as a whole (when it happens), will bring great misfortunes to the armenians who r living in turkey! that is something that the armenians of turkey know and despite that they still continue to live there! that is their choice, we respect it, we admire their bravery for staying there but that does not mean that the rest of the diaspora (which was created by the armenians who were forced to leave turkey and were lucky enough to survive) will not continue to struggle for truth and justice!