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#81 DominO

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 08:15 PM

You got that all wrong.

Racism appeared in Germany as a racial classification and hierarchisation, this is the principle of racism as it appeared in the last century... non-equal right to live may just be a consequences of those beliefs, but not necessarily one. I may consider a dog as superior as a cat, yet I may maintain that both have equal right to live.

Secondo, you can not compare NAZIsm with Anthroposophism by using NAZI brutal regime, because one had only a mystical component, while the other was mystical AND “governmental.” And I think here you did not understand my comment about “competition.” They were not competing for power, but rather ideology... this can be confirmed by what the founders of NAZIsm did not long before Steiner death, and how it is claimed that this led to his death.

“He was refering to the Old Testament”

What kind of BS is this? Steiner racism is clear cut, and yet you try to hide it under the carpet by claiming he had no brutal system, or that his concept about the Jews is derived from the old Testament. I fail to see, how any of your justifications may show me that his claim about the two missions of the Jews and why their existence is no longer justified is not similar to the ideologies vehiculed by the NAZI.

I DON”T SEE HOW HIS “ARYAN ORIGINAL RACE” IS NOT RACIST. Explain me that part, stop diverting it. Explain me how his seven stages of so-called “enlightenment” are not racistic. Explain me how his bullcrap of the superior Aryan race having come from Atlantis(he claims communicating with those from there) and have founded all high, superior cultures(blue eyes blound haired) is not racist... explain me how his conception that those on the bottom Blacks, and those on top Aryan is not racist. You claim he did not claim superiority, but this does not make sense at all, his theory of reincarnation from the bottom to the top is just that... those ideologies are the foundations of the mystical NAZI ideologies of races. That you post me links, to justify and claim how great Steiner was, doesn't change anything here.

Just answer this, how his hierarchisation of “races” is not racistic, when it is about the classification of races, those on the bottom(Blacks) and those on top Aryans. Tell me how this is not racistic, and tell me if you agree with this theory of his.

Just answer me about if you believe him having spoken with the inhabitants of Atlantis.

There are many great men, yet people chose Chinmoys and Steiners. mad.gif

Edited by QueBeceR, 26 February 2005 - 08:17 PM.


#82 Armen

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 08:59 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 26 2005, 08:15 PM)
You got that all wrong.
Racism appeared in Germany as a racial classification and hierarchisation, this is the principle of racism as it appeared in the last century... non-equal right to live may just be a consequences of those beliefs, but not necessarily one. I may consider a dog as superior as a cat, yet I may maintain that both have equal right to live.

Oh man. QB, I didn't say only "rights to live". I said "live and etc.". Meaning all rights are equal. If Steiner was advocating for equal rights on everything how is it that he was viewing one SUPERIOR to other. Superior IN WHAT?
QUOTE
Secondo, you can not compare NAZIsm with Anthroposophism by using NAZI brutal regime, because one had only a mystical component, while the other was mystical AND “governmental.” And I think here you did not understand my comment about “competition.” They were not competing for power, but rather ideology... this can be confirmed by what the founders of NAZIsm did not long before Steiner death, and how it is claimed that this led to his death.

So, now you move Anthroposophy to the level of ideology. Great QB! Do you know what the difference between something "sophy" and ideology? It is that something "sophy" never tries to gain organised political power. Anthroposopists never tried to gain organised political power. They have never had a collective center, any colletive finance. What "competition" are you talking about? They have always been a discentralised, anarchist (in organisational sense) movement.

If I don't try to gain political power, so what is it that I do? Do you know? I speak and argue.
QUOTE
“He was refering to the Old Testament”
What kind of BS is this? Steiner racism is clear cut, and yet you try to hide it under the carpet by claiming he had no brutal system, or that his concept about the Jews is derived from the old Testament. I fail to see, how any of your justifications may show me that his claim about the two missions of the Jews and why their existence is no longer justified is not similar to the ideologies vehiculed by the NAZI.


His concept is not DERIVED from the old testament. I said it is DIRECTED AGAINST Old Testament. Are all Jews Old Testament Jews? No. Are there any Jews that are against Old Testament? Yes.

I also think that the values of Old Testament are no justified. Do you have other views about the Old Testament QB?

QUOTE
I DON”T SEE HOW HIS “ARYAN ORIGINAL RACE” IS NOT RACIST. Explain me that part, stop diverting it. Explain me how his seven stages of so-called “enlightenment” are not racistic. Explain me how his bullcrap of the superior Aryan race having come from Atlantis(he claims communicating with those from there) and have founded all high, superior cultures(blue eyes blound haired) is not racist... explain me how his conception that those on the bottom Blacks, and those on top Aryan is not racist. You claim he did not claim superiority, but this does not make sense at all, his theory of reincarnation from the bottom to the top is just that... those ideologies are the foundations of the mystical NAZI ideologies of races. That you post me links, to justify and claim how great Steiner was, doesn't change anything here.


Replace "Aryan" with "Caucasian" and replace "Race" with "Ethnos" and you will have what he meant. Beacause in the days he wrote his works "race" and "aryan" where not yet scandalised by the fact of Holocaust occurence.

QB, do you understand what idea I get when you start "bombarding" me with repetative que of questions, some of which I already answered? I think you want to make me confused about what and when to reply.

QUOTE
Just answer this, how his hierarchisation of “races” is not racistic, when it is about the classification of races, those on the bottom(Blacks) and those on top Aryans. Tell me how this is not racistic, and tell me if you agree with this theory of his.


It is a hierarchisation in time according to the stages of historical development. He is talking about the difference of emotional forces that were stronger then and weaker now and vica versa. For example he is saying that the sexual emotional world of the humans was developed during the "black period". And it was stronger then than now.

Once he put it in a board in "down to up" version. You know why? To reflect the human being. Aren't you sexual organs at the bottom of your organism?

And this started all that talk about his hierarchisation according to superiority. That's just not true.

QUOTE
Just answer me about if you believe him having spoken with the inhabitants of Atlantis.


QB, that's cheap. Like you don't know what he meant by that? What do you want me to do? To say that he flew on a magical carpet back to Atlanis and bought some Chinese noodles from the Yellow race?

What were you saying about that mystical feeling and trees and stuff you had in the "Miracles" thread?

QUOTE
There are many great men, yet people chose Chinmoys and Steiners.  mad.gif


QB, your not interested in discussion. And I am not interested in discussing it with you. I don't get anything valuable from you when doing this and I don't find you constructive anymore.

#83 Sasun

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 09:28 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 26 2005, 01:06 AM)
Armen, I don`t remember saying he was a NAZI, Steiner ideology has a racial characterization similair to those that the NAZI had. This reincarnation from Blacks to more evolved "races" is purly racistic in its true sense of the term, and anyone proposing such a thing for me is a fraud.

As for Chinmoy, I said everything I had to say, those claiming to be victims are in the dozens, and they display the typical psychological behavour of raped and harassed women... I have no reason to attack someone like this. Chinmoy has lied in countless numbers of occasions with his lift stories, and his purity, there are even witnesses telling how unhonest he was in his vegetarism. But of course I got cursed by Mr. Sasun that is ignoring me from the day I have decided that hyeforum was not a place to make publicity for someone that take women as objects and kill psychologicaly peoples. I have read enough material to recognise the same methods and materns of denials used by the Turks to deny the genocide.

But of course, Sasun can shout "I have grown" all he want... I was about to ask one of the victims with whom I have entered in contact to come at hyeforum and discuss about her cases, but since Mr. Chinmoy has a history of spamming the web and closing sites with the many best lawyers money can get(paying them with the money his brainwashed disciples give to him), he would probably either ask his men to spam this forum with their trash or threatning with legal actions, so I changed my mind.

If you want, I can even help you to directly enter in contact with some of the victims(even by phone).

What a piece of delusional trash built from thin air in a sick mind. A case of extreme dishonesty and schizophrenia.

#84 Sasun

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 26 2005, 01:08 AM)
Like I care.

Ladies and gentlmen, Sasun is ignoring me, since the day I have exposed Chinmoy his Guru.

Liar, stop mentioning my name and your delusional proclamations. It would be good to realize that you are not some kind of an all knowing expert to be revered by HyeForum. So once again, you should stop your confused manuevers to provoke a conversation or anything, I am thoroughly disgusted of you.

#85 DominO

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 09:40 PM

Armen, former "Waldorf" like Dan Dugan support my position. You are entirly twisting Steiners ideologies... but of course, there isn't much surprising here, Anthroposophist propagandists reinterpretation over the web is abound, talking of not taking informations from the web, your reinterpretations are just that.

I have finished with that thing.

It is nice to see again, the Mr. moderator Sasun slandering a member of the forum, because he decide to support the victims of a raper. Talking of schizophrenia, I am not the one believing being contacted, his Guru is.

#86 DominO

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 09:43 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 26 2005, 10:35 PM)
Liar, stop mentioning my name and your delusional proclamations. It would be good to realize that you are not some kind of an all knowing expert to be revered by HyeForum. So once again, you should stop your confused manuevers to provoke a conversation or anything, I am thoroughly disgusted of you.


Respect the rules that you are here to enforce, and learn some self control... if not for me, at least for the sake of the forum that you are supposed to moderate. And I know your trick, again starting a fight to get the thread disapear, because it contains a critic of your Guru.

Edited by QueBeceR, 26 February 2005 - 09:44 PM.


#87 DominO

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 09:58 PM

Another thing, I never asked anyone to venerate me, neither have I claimed ultimate knowledge, I leave this to people like Chinmoy that you like venerating.

#88 Sasun

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 26 2005, 10:43 PM)
Respect the rules that you are here to enforce, and learn some self control... if not for me, at least for the sake of the forum that you are supposed to moderate. And I know your trick, again starting a fight to get the thread disapear, because it contains a critic of your Guru.

What kind of a sick lie is this. Your trashes are still in the forum, stop slandering me. And what kind of a sick person will drag an old argument all the time whenever there is or there is not an opportunity to renew the old hateful trash of yours. It is a pathetic hypocricy to provoke me and accuse me of attempting to close a thread. You are the one always opening the topic of "guru" and freak out and start spewing delusional accusations. The reason I have been ignoring you is because I don't want to have anything to do with a paranoic hateful person like you. Don't you get it? Leave me alone! Don't mention my name, don't provoke arguments, I don't care what a schizophrenic thinks about spritual people. Now do you get it?

#89 DominO

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 26 2005, 11:02 PM)
What kind of a sick lie is this. Your trashes are still in the forum, stop slandering me. And what kind of a sick person will drag an old argument all the time whenever there is or there is not an opportunity to renew the old hateful trash of yours. It is a pathetic hypocricy to provoke me and accuse me of attempting to close a thread. You are the one always opening the topic of "guru" and freak out and start spewing delusional accusations. The reason I have been ignoring you is because I don't want to have anything to do with a paranoic hateful person like you. Don't you get it? Leave me alone! Don't mention my name, don't provoke arguments, I don't care what a schizophrenic thinks about spritual people. Now do you get it?


Slandering you? That's it Bozzo, who is slandering whom here? In cases you missed it, it is a theology thread, and I have the right to say anything I want, regarding any religious figures... that you can't control yourself in any hot religious topics is the last of my concerns.

But of course you didn't thought of all those things about me before I have decided to criticise Mr. Chinmoy and expose him for what he is.

Delusional? Again, I am not the one claiming to be contacted... neither following blindly someone that claim to have been.

#90 Azat

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:17 PM

ROTFLMAO - Fadiushka, love the avatar

#91 Armen

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:17 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 26 2005, 09:40 PM)
Armen, former "Waldorf" like Dan Dugan support my position. You are entirly twisting Steiners ideologies... but of course, there isn't much surprising here, Anthroposophist propagandists reinterpretation over the web is abound, talking of not taking informations from the web, your reinterpretations are just that.

I have finished with that thing.


QB, "Waldorf" is not an adjective. Don't try to "scare" people as if it is something sooo freakin' mysitcal. There are hundereds of Waldorfian schools everyhwere in the world. And their only difference is that they teach the same stuff like in other schools by different methods in special stages for before 7, before 14, before 21. Also, they use lot of music and arts in teaching. They NEVER (as far as I have seen) teach athroposophy in those schools. And you know what is the most interesing? Not all of its graduates associate themsleves with Anthroposophy or "believe" in Steiner.

You know why is it reinterpreted? Because it is alive, it develops and it is not Steiner's property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are his words that you should know:

"Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge, to guide the spiritual in the human being to the spiritual in the universe... Anthroposophists are those who experience, as an essential need of life, certain questions on the nature of the human being and the universe, just as one experiences hunger and thirst."

"I beg of you, and I begged the same of you in Berlin," says Steiner in his conclusion of the lecture cycle Die Mission einzelner Volkseelen which Staudenmaier is referring to, "not to accept anything I have ever said or will say because you trust me as an authority or only believe me. (.....) I beg of you, do not believe in it blindly, do not accept my words because I am an authority."

-Rudolf Steiner, Anthroposophical Leading Thoughts (1904)

#92 ED

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:18 PM

Guys, please get a hold on your self’s, and refrain from name calling, if anything let’s put an end to this unpleasant scene.

Sasun, please close this thread and do some clean up.

#93 DominO

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:24 PM

Armen, I didn't tried to scare people, OK I admit having "adjectivised" the word, by it wasn't ill fated.

As I said, I will stop talking about it.

#94 DominO

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:00 AM

Armen, a good read.

http://www.w-reich.de/hdobant.pdf
http://www.waldorfli...cles/RB1202.pdf

I have posted the second, because even from the school, it does not deny racism may exist.

Edit, another one: http://www.physto.se...012stauden1.pdf

Edited by QueBeceR, 27 February 2005 - 12:13 AM.


#95 Armen

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:13 AM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 27 2005, 12:00 AM)


What a read! biggrin.gif

QB, if anthroposophy was to repress sexuality would Steiner ever say this about freedom of women?

http://www.skepdic.com/steiner.html

Steiner was also ahead of his time in understanding sexism...

The social position of women is for the most part such an unworthy one because in so many respects it is determined not as it should be by the particular characteristics of the individual woman, but by the general picture one has of woman's natural tasks and needs. A man's activity in life is governed by his individual capacities and inclinations, whereas a woman's is supposed to be determined solely by the mere fact that she is a woman. She is supposed to be a slave to what is generic, to womanhood in general. As long as men continue to debate whether a woman is suited to this or that profession "according to her natural disposition," the so-called woman's question cannot advance beyond its most elementary stage. What a woman, within her natural limitations, wants to become had better be left to the woman herself to decide.*


QB, take a good note that Sceptics Dictionary is not a pro-Steiner source and is very critical of him.

This makes that link you provided completely non-creadible for me.

QUOTE
http://www.waldorfli...cles/RB1202.pdf
I have posted the second, because even from the school, it does not deny racism may exist.


QB, can you show me where exactly that it says that racism may exist?

QUOTE


This is answered here:

http://uncletaz.com/...agenglish2.html

#96 Armen

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:22 AM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 27 2005, 12:00 AM)


One question to you QB about this author's views and your point of view about that. He says that anthroposophy wants to subbordinate "animalism" (do not equate that to sexuality) in the humans to morals through development of will. That is correct, it does want to do that. The author seems to imply that the "animalism" in humans should be left alone. Do you agree with that?

#97 Stormig

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE (Armen @ Feb 26 2005, 08:19 PM)
What's "a fad"? Use human English please.

"Fad" according to dictionary.com: http://dictionary.re...om/search?q=fad
While you're at it, you might as well also check out "dork"...

#98 DominO

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:11 PM

"QB, can you show me where exactly that it says that racism may exist?"

Did you read it? It isn't even past half of the text.

As for the answer(the link you have provided)

I did read it yesterday, it entirly skip and relativise everything. I call this the"denialist" method which I have developped in my essay about Malta prisoners posted in the genocide section.

The answer of the author is either taking the racistic views and claim they are not evidences for racism, either claim that the informations are not accurate.

The whole point here revolve around his root Aryan race, and the categorisation of races, this is the whole point... that some in the movement try to tell us how the group is multiethnic and how NAZI targeted them doesn't change a yota here. Steiner belief of the root races, and the Aryans was in the racist movement of the German society after the first decade of the last century. The rest of those beliefs have been banned, only Steiners remained, because the community was good at propagandising and telling why the movement is not racist. But the belief is EXCATLY a racist one, racism does not require hating, it does not require violence to be one, and here is where the link you provide fail, when the article they answer was clear about that.

It is purly racistic to believe that Blacks are the first stage of humanity, it is racistic to believe that Aryans are the last stage... it is racistic to believe that such stages even exist, and this is the center of Steiner belief system. That people from the movement relativise things and claim how peace loving Steiner was doesn't make any differences, and please stop denying it is racism when it clearly IS.

Swear me you have read entirly what was writen here: http://www.physto.se...012stauden1.pdf and did not simply searched the name of the author and the title of the work to get an answer from a propagandist from the movement... because if you were really unbiased in this issue, you will clearly see how the answer skip entirly and twist all the context. I do admit there are weakness in the article, but there is much more weakness in the answer.

Edited by QueBeceR, 27 February 2005 - 12:18 PM.


#99 DominO

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:25 PM

Oh and I forgot.

Here an interesting link for anyone that want to know more about Steiner and his school.

http://hem.passagen....agenglish1.html

#100 Armen

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 27 2005, 12:11 PM)
Swear me you have read entirly what was writen here: http://www.physto.se...012stauden1.pdf and did not simply searched the name of the author and the title of the work to get an answer from a propagandist from the movement... because if you were really unbiased in this issue, you will clearly see how the answer skip entirly and twist all the context. I do admit there are weakness in the article, but there is much more weakness in the answer.


QB, I read the whole article I swear but I am not going to present counter arguments to it and here is why. Go to the first paragraph and read this passage of Peter Staudenmaier where he writes:

"The 'national souls' of Norther and Central Europe belonged, Steiner explained, to the "germanic-nordic" peoples, the worlds most spiritually advansed ethnic group".

QB, now I will show you how exactly Staudenmaier uses propadanda techniques (this is why I don't view him as a serious critic). Steiner did say that about the Northern and Central Europe. Take the Czech (Central Europe) people for example. They are Slavs by their origin and language but their development is more Germanic than Slav. Or take the Sandinavians (North Europe). Aren't they Germanic? They are.

BUT! Staudedmaier attaches an additional passage (see above in the quote), which says - "the worlds most spiritually advansed ethnic group" - which are not Steiner's words. They are Staudenmaiers words.

QB, this article - which I read all - was not worth reading after that part.

QUOTE
"QB, can you show me where exactly that it says that racism may exist?"
Did you read it? It isn't even past half of the text.


Please quote it QB and mention the paragraph.

QUOTE
As for the answer(the link you have provided)
I did read it yesterday, it entirly skip and relativise everything. I call this the"denialist" method which I have developped in my essay about Malta prisoners posted in the genocide section.
The answer of the author is either taking the racistic views and claim they are not evidences for racism, either claim that the informations are not accurate.


QB, do not apply your methods of fighting denialism to everything. If we go that way we may one day find that Bach was the root of German Nazism.

QUOTE
The whole point here revolve around his root Aryan race, and the categorisation of races, this is the whole point... that some in the movement try to tell us how the group is multiethnic and how NAZI targeted them doesn't change a yota here. Steiner belief of the root races, and the Aryans was in the racist movement of the German society after the first decade of the last century. The rest of those beliefs have been banned, only Steiners remained, because the community was good at propagandising and telling why the movement is not racist. But the belief is EXCATLY a racist one, racism does not require hating, it does not require violence to be one, and here is where the link you provide fail, when the article they answer was clear about that.
It is purly racistic to believe that Blacks are the first stage of humanity, it is racistic to believe that Aryans are the last stage... it is racistic to believe that such stages even exist, and this is the center of Steiner belief system. That people from the movement relativise things and claim how peace loving Steiner was doesn't make any differences, and please stop denying it is racism when it clearly IS.


QB, can you explain what you understand under "racism"?

Edited by Armen, 27 February 2005 - 04:07 PM.





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