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The Bill On Punishment For Denying Armenian Genocide Is Adopted


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Poll: the bill on punishment for denying Armenian genocide

will it be adopted ???

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#41 gmd

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 09:17 AM

QUOTE(MosJan @ Oct 12 2006, 08:24 AM) View Post
Well it as happened apricot.gif even though it's still has long ways to go before it becomes a law in France apricot.gif it's a good start
now what is Armenia going to do w/ 70K+ Armenian that are going to be "returned" to Armenia wink.gif HAyreniq Sirt@T bats


Is that number accurate or is turkey threatening to deport all Armenians including those who are Turkish citizens?

#42 Takoush

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 11:11 AM

All true Arpa and Gamavor jans. But there is one more thing I have to clear with Zurderer zirderer...and here it is.

You think that if the two+ millions of Armenians weren't killed from 1895 through l923 our the then Armenian Highlands would have been the same as your dried up stone age Anatolia???? Then Zurderer you are not at all smart and your mind is blocked with mud. Our nation of more than three+ million in the Armenian Highlands not only would have multiplied ten folds; but our rivers would have run through our forests and the gardens and the crops in a much more industrialised and forward ways. By now we would have built huge industrialised cities, buildings, and mostly Armenia would have been so much richer, and we would have flourished beyond explanations; that your backward murderous turkey couldn't and weren't able to do in ninety plus years.

Because you people only do know how to take and claim lands that do not belong to you by murdering innocent people, by torturing them then 90 years later after committing a great and the first Genocide of the 19th century do not have the decency to accept their wrongdoings and vast murders. You'll never and couldn't ever equal our highly intellectual, highly industrious, highly scientific brains. We are workers and you are takers.

Get all this through your hard head. Our Armenia, yes as you call it, today's Anatolia would have been unrecognizable if ARMENIANS WEREN'T KILLED BY YOUR PEOPLE AND IF ARMENIANS WERE LEFT ALONE IN THEIR FOUR THOUSAND YEAR OLD ARMENIAN HIGHLANDS.

Don't go telling us what we know of our people. If we were left alone, our Armenian Highlands would have been one of the best European countries by now and perhaps even better.

The only stone age creators were you people the turks.

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 12 October 2006 - 11:15 AM.


#43 Error 404

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 12:07 PM

I do not care if France did that for other purposes or not. But the new law is fair and justified.

I can imagine Turkey's reaction:) It is in HYSTERIA!!!

Altough the mainstream media is kinda complaining about the new law too. It is probably putting the law about denying the holocaust in shadow.

Again VIVA LA FRANCE !!!

#44 zurderer

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 01:13 PM

Do you even know the historical context of the 1945 events in Algeria? That many were massacred is undeniable, but that it was a genocide, namely, with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group is utterly unbased.



You can same for ittihatist too. Infact They were not racist people. They tought to protect Turkey, They should dismiss others. Their aim was not to kill, but to protect their country.

So Ittihatist killed for land, I dont know If this is better or worse than killing for money.(What france did.) Aim was not armenians but land, armenians were hindarence.

By the way, since you defined "genocide" for us, why don't you tell us on what bases you are claiming that there was no Armenian Genocide (I prefer the word Holocaust).



I dont claim that there was not armenian genocide.I just dont think accepting armenian genocide is beneficial for us.

The above is one more proof that Turks are helpless case!



Algerians should be forever grateful to the French. If there were not the French Algeria would still be in the stone age.



It is interesting that you are so stupid, you did not understand I just used your words, and It is sad, You have no idea about meaning of sarcasm. Infact It looks like you commented about yourself realy fine. You are helpless.

Next time think about what are you saying.

And now this bastard imbecile turkish giotferen is telling me that I have to be grateful to the turks that I live in America???



Of now should I care for your personal problems? It is you who say an algerian who lost his father should be greateful to france. So It is sad, you have no capacity to understand what you are saying.


I don't know who asked but there is a difference between genocide and massacre, the wrong part of the genocide definition was put in bold. The key word is 'intent'.



intent of young turks was not to kill armenians but to protect their land. Infact at first, They had pro-minority ideas, but with balkan wars, This ideas changed to nationalist one. So racist young turk was not a reality.

So their intent was to take armenian lands, france intent is to take algerian moneys. Intent is realy a vague word. You cannot say young turk aim was to kill armenians(like nazi germany.) They did not actively followed armenians, and They did not kill and exile all armenians.(some armenians were spared.)

Your intent?

Your ability to reason allows you to understand that Genocide is something bad when somebody else says it, but you personally doesn't understand, because you don't understand the wrong doing!



I think you are more racist than young Turks. Anyway, It looks like It is you who dont care about innocent life algerian lost, and It is you who cannot see wrong doings. It is interesting you have to much common thing with racist Turks.

turks massacred europeens all right, in my class this year, i have an armenian, a bulgarian, and a romanian...plus me...the irishmen

everytime we hear turks, we all express our hatred.



are you a sufist? tongue.gif

Very true gamavor, in fact if the French wanted to destroy the Algerian population then I'd be very surprised if there were any Algerians left today.



But you wont become very supprised because there is some armenians left at istanbul.


I have, in the past alluded that in our language, yes language, you should be so fortunate to have one, that zurd/zird ( an onomatopoeic/bnadzayn word, listen to its sound) means bird/turkey kaka.


Happy to see you again angry child. Infact what you said is almost true.(Almost.)

It is true, we did it.(intent is not much important) and It is true, a new genocide is possible too.

But It is also true, armenians have hate capacity as much(even more) as us. You can do genocide too, but you had no power, and lets hope you wont have power.

It is also true, Our way will meet at future too.(Maybe 100 year later maybe 1000.), so why should I help armenians? because my ancestors were murderers, I wont let my children to be murdered.

It is interesting what you armenians only show is hate(also you are proud of that hate.), and you talk about humanity.

Sorry but I dont think we will eat that dolma.

By the way, It is interesting when you are accusing turks with becoming deniers, now you becomed deniers.

If I had power to stop genocide, I will do it, but for you(haters, deniers), I will not even move my finger.(Except at forums.)


did you like your medicine child?

Don't go telling us what we know of our people. If we were left alone, our Armenian Highlands would have been one of the best European countries by now and perhaps even better.



"If" is realy a big word for history. It was not Turks who won wars, It is armenians who lost war. If there were not Turks, you will lost an other war.(again araps, persians, russian,greeks etc.)

Turks is not reason for your bad situation. It was your nation(and their inability to cope with other people) which reasoned this.

Edited by zurderer, 12 October 2006 - 01:17 PM.


#45 zurderer

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 01:45 PM

Infact you are calculating wrong, dont you read newspapers. Now EU is talking like Turkey. History should be discussed by historians not politicians.

Weird, the ones who want Turkey in EU will help Turkey to bury armenian genocide. This time it is armenains who shot their foot.

#46 vava

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 01:59 PM

It's not law yet - it still has to pass other votes before being fully adopted.

#47 vava

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 02:03 PM

Notice that the BBC is still using quotations around the word Genocide.

Source: BBC news

QUOTE
Turkey condemns 'genocide' vote


Turkish protests in Ankara

Turkey has condemned a French parliamentary vote which would make it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered "genocide" at the hands of the Turks.

Turkey called it a "serious blow" to relations and has threatened sanctions. The vote was also criticised by the EU.

The bill, tabled by the opposition but opposed by the French government, needs approval from the Senate and president.

Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey.

There are accusations in Turkey that the Armenian diaspora and opponents of Turkey's European Union membership bid are using the issue to stop it joining the 25-member bloc.

'Unfounded'

Turkey has been warning France for weeks not to pass the bill which was sponsored by the opposition Socialist party.

It provides for a year in jail and a 45,000-euro (30,000) fine - the same punishment that is imposed for denying the Nazi Holocaust.

"Turkish-French relations, which have been meticulously developed over the centuries, took a severe blow today through the irresponsible initiatives of some short-sighted French politicians, based on unfounded allegations," the Turkish foreign ministry said.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says many Turks are angry at what they see as double standards in the EU, where opinions are sharply divided about whether Turkey should be allowed to join.

The European Commission has said that if the bill becomes law it will "prohibit dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation" between Turkey and Armenia.

The official Turkish position states that many Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks died in fighting during World War I - but that there was no genocide.

But public debate on the issue has been stifled in Turkey.

The French vote came as controversial Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk won the 2006 Nobel Prize in Literature.

He has faced prosecution in Turkey for talking about the murder of hundreds of thousands of Armenians during World War I and thousands of Kurds in subsequent years.

The charges have since been dropped.

Celebration and concern

The French governing Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) did not back the bill, but gave its deputies a free vote.

It passed by 106 votes to 19, after most deputies left the chamber in protest against what critics say is an attempt to attract votes of the some 500,000 people of Armenian descent in presidential elections next year.

Ethnic Armenians in Paris celebrated the result.

"The memory of the victims is finally totally respected," said Alexis Govciyan.

But French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin distanced himself from the bill.

It is "not a good thing to legislate on issues of history and of memory," he said.


#48 zurderer

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE
It's not law yet - it still has to pass other votes before being fully adopted.


Indeed, and most probably It will never become a law.(Infact If It becomes laws, It would be better. Just think what will happen If france jail some Turkish citizens for this.)

But this voting, made Armenian genocide problem as another politic problem. When It comes to politics, a lot country will choose Turkey over Armenia.

EU will also choose Turkey.Infact EU is a double-edged sword, It may help armenians, or It may help Turkey.(With comdemning laws about Armenian Genocide.)

QUOTE
Notice that the BBC is still using quotations around the word Genocide.

indeed. But BBC also say this.

The French governing Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) did not back the bill, but gave its deputies a free vote.

It passed by 106 votes to 19, after most deputies left the chamber in protest against what critics say is an attempt to attract votes of the some 500,000 people of Armenian descent in presidential elections next year
.

It also says, Armenian genocide law passed because of armenian minority, not because of genocide itself.(So It is a france inner political issue, not a moral problem.)

Lets hope, France will jail some people because of this law(If It realy happens.) I am sure both some armenians and turks like this.

#49 Sassun

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE
I don't know who asked but there is a difference between genocide and massacre, the wrong part of the genocide definition was put in bold. The key word is 'intent'.

I was the one who asked, and yes I know what the difference is. I was only waiting for Zurderer to tell us the difference.

#50 zurderer

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:07 PM

QUOTE
I was the one who asked, and yes I know what the difference is. I was only waiting for Zurderer to tell us the difference.


Infact I believe genocide is a big massacre. This intent thing is absolute bullshit. If Intent is only important point, There was only one genocide.(Jewish one) they are killed because they are jews. It was not important where there live, how much loyalty they have against state, ext.

It is not same for armenians, sorry again you are shoting your foot. So maybe I should began to think refuse armenian genocide.

As I said before, Intent is a vague world.You cannot see intent of anyone.

#51 Error 404

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:26 PM

I think the french senate will block it. I wish there was something that we could do to let them pass it. Like sending them emails,faxes or even calling them.

Turkey on it's turn warned that it will recognize the genocide of algerians and make a law about the denial of algerian genocide.

Again the turkish diplomacy glances. No wonder, british school of diplomacy.

All the polls in europe state that they don't want butchers to join the EU.

#52 Error 404

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:33 PM

By The way what the hell means "leave the history to historians" ???

What type of stupid comment is that?

It's not a history its is historical CRIME against humanity!!!

If the police finds a murderer 10 years after the incident should the police turn the murder to historians because it happened long time ago?

Stupid ...

#53 Takoush

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE(zurderer @ Oct 12 2006, 03:13 PM) View Post
You can same for ittihatist too. Infact They were not racist people. They tought to protect Turkey, They should dismiss others. Their aim was not to kill, but to protect their country.

I will answer this to whomever you have answered. The person can later choose to answer or not at his free will.

They thought to protect turkey? against who? are you for real??? Armenians were living in turkey as citizens..... they were not in a position or the intent at the time to fight against turkey or overturn the then government. They were peacefully and obediently living in turkey paying high very high taxes and plus being mugged by some turks and kurds too.

What more do you want in your brain to call a racist a racist? More than 2+ million Armenians were killed and massacred on the spot. children, women and old people were either raped tortured then were dumped in huge ditches, turkish man made graves then burned on the spot. Or they were shoved in a Church or a school or any kind of large governmental buildings and put on fire. Towards the end of 1916 your ittihadist talaat was faxing the governor of Alleppo to find out from him as to how many Armenians are killed even in Alleppo and or in nearby towns and in cities. Talaat was faxing him every day to know of this. Your darling talaat wanted to know this BECAUSE HE WANTED TO SEE THE END OF ALL THE ARMENIANS. HE WANTED THE WHOLE NATIONALITY EXTRACTED AND TAKEN AWAY FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH. THAT IS A GENOCIDE. Nothing short of that. Don't kid yourself, don't talk into yourself and don't try to find excuses comparing it with the French govenrment and the Algiers.

Why the sudden talk about the French government? Because the French govenrment is honest, sincere and had enough of the likes of you and the turks manipulating the truth about your ittihadists and your turkey trying to conceal the facts that your turkey committed a Genode? Yes, the French government is absolutely right and today's French government has all the respect and love of our people including and especially myself.


QUOTE
You cannot say young turk aim was to kill armenians(like nazi germany.) They did not actively followed armenians, and They did not kill and exile all armenians.(some armenians were spared.)


We can say it and we can say it loud and clear the truth which prevails. The ittihadists were just as bad as the nazi germany. They sure have followed and followed it through for Armenians to vanish from the face of the earth. The only Armenians that were spared; are the ones that the American orhphanage took them aboard or a great many of them being strong and persistent to survive, they have survived without food and without water for days and months walking into the Arabian deserts. A great many survivors through the deserts were taken to the cave at Shadaddie in the Syrian desert, they were thrown in it then put on fire and flames, to kill the remainder of the Armenian race.

You happen to have plenty of time to fight yourself through in here; why don't you educate yourself by reading about the truths that an American writer wrote about the Armenian Genocide. Go on read and educate yourself like Orhan Pamuk and quite many intellectuals that came around only recently to the U.S. only to speak the truth about your anscestors, the ittihadists' murdering "intently" our people and our nationality, completely and solely. Read on you may learn something, and that something will set you free.

QUOTE
"If" is realy a big word for history. It was not Turks who won wars, It is armenians who lost war. If there were not Turks, you will lost an other war.(again araps, persians, russian,greeks etc.)

If Armenians lost wars or not is not the issue here. The issue here is your ittihadists "intent" to murder a whole nation. The Armenian nation. That is a Genocide. Turkey and you should admit the truth and the facts.

Although we have lost some wars and gained others; but I very much doubt if any other nationality such as the ones that you have just mentioned, the (Arabs, Persians, Russians, or the Greeks) would have committed the great crimes of the first Genocide of the twentieth century.

#54 irlandahay

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE(Anahid Takouhi @ Oct 12 2006, 12:56 AM) View Post
Hello there IrlandaHay; I'm ok thanks. Thanks for missing me. smile.gif

You know something, although the bloody turks massacred and did a Genocide on our nation; but Talaat was Jewish, so I have heard, and the then Germans were not only assisting Talaat, Gemal and the Ittihadists but they were showing them how to go about killing practically all our nation. And they had all the turkish people to do their dirty job for them.

And now I have to hear this freaken lowlife Zurderer to tell Gams that we should be grateful to the Jewish/Turk Ittihadists that killed all our nation except a few of us who survived by miracle that they did us a favor to throw us out of our 4,000 years old homeland. Our beautiful anscestors who lived a sheer and truly a saintly life, a good life, they were productive, inventive, imaginative, resourceful and worthy to bear the name of ultimately the civilized nation of the world. Yet this idiot Zurderer is telling Gams and us that we have to be greateful that they killed our nation in the worst nightmarish horrific unimaginatively torturous ways to our most saintly and civilised people of the world. Our people were all of that and more, much more. It breaks my heart beyond explanations that inhumans as such should have a say in the matter after they have taken our wonderful people's live's in the worst and unimaginabe ways.

It just makes my mind go numb when I think and feel the horrifickness of the situation of what happened to my people. It just breaks my heart beyond any words.


lol..ur right...i did miss you tongue.gif

no, germans did not help turks. in fact if it wasnt for many germans (namely armin wegner) our story would crumble. i mean, its not a lie, but who would take the word of a tiny unimportant nation as armenia over the strategic position of turkey? e have mountains of evidence, given by german officers soldiers, priests and many many more. please do not dishonor the noble germans of ww1, because they were far different then the ones of ww2. they soiled their own name by allying with the garbage that is the turkish nation, but they have learned from their mistakes, they must have credit for it. could you imagine? putting up with all this? museums of how your own grandfather did this? having this written in all history books? that YOUR people did this..im sorry but the germans of today are heros and real men. they deserve a round of applause. theyr soldiers faught bravely and died bravely in the fields of europe. these are true men!
unlike the turkish dogs that called themselves soldiers. sure, they were very effective against unarmed women and children, but when it comes to battle...not so good. captain shithead only won by luck (ataturk).
his enemies were unprepared and he had numbers. oh ya and he also whiped out all those who stood in his way...

oh please, sorry anahid couyrig but dont be stupid...itihad was not jewish, nor was talaat, nor is santa clause. jews are not the source of our problems. talaat himself insulted morgenthau by calling him a dirty jew!
i am truly thankful of the help the jews have given us, morgenthau, franz werfel, raphael lemkin...there are just so many. just because some people work in their own interest..u cant hate them all.

-cheers,
hope you dont hate me for that last statement couyrig

#55 irlandahay

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:22 PM

QUOTE(Sassun @ Oct 12 2006, 04:56 AM) View Post
I disagree, Gamavor. French occupation and colonization of Algeria was brutal, against the wishes of the indegenous population, who were disposessed by the French to make way for settler communities. It is pretty much the same thing happening now in Israel, though on a much smaller scale (in my opinion). The French, it seems, pretty much understood the language of violence much easier than the Israelis are doing.


i agree in a way. i believe everyone should be free. but france did not commit genocide. they were brutal, only to trouble makers. yes, it was wrong, but still not genocide smile.gif

and no, this is in no way what israel is doing to palestine, israel has been quite brutal yes, but they are fighting for a land that truly is theirs, that has always belonged to them. their population was decimated, time after time, heyr fate is somewhat similar to ours.

-cheers

#56 irlandahay

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:49 PM

hello zurderer

we havent had the chance to meet. you see, iv been busy lately...school and other forums. i forgot to look back until i realised it smelled like crap on this forum, wich means only one thing...aturk must be around.

indeed i was right. but one thing i am not certain of...are you turkish or a kurd? i dunno, somewhere i read that you were a kurd. if so, il say what i have to say when u answer...

now back to armenia.
i myself am only half armenian, i descend of two noble races, i am irish and armenian. pretty rare. my body is irish(blond hair, green eyes, small stature) but my spirit is armenian.
my grandfather walked the desert at the age of 4, he watched his family get whiped out. he was always told never to hate, he always told us never to hate.

but i was driven to this, i grew up thinking that the government is to blame. the people have nothing to do with it. i even managed to prove to a turk at my school that there was a genocide. it was hard to accept at first. but he managed, i congradulate him everyday for this, this guy deserves respect. recently there has been a series of articles in newspapers about armenians (independance day, french bill), HE is the one who comes and shows them to me.

but it is morons like you who bring my hope down. it is morons like you, who refuse to stand up to the past, and to move towards a better future.

i am really getting fed up with this crap! FOR HOW MUCH FUKING LONGER AM I GONNA HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS? YOUR FUKING CRAP ABOUT LIES AND NO ITS THE ARMENIANS WHO KILLED TURKS! HOW STUPID ARE YOU? GOD FUKING DAMN IT IM SO TIRED OF HEARING THIS! IM TIRED OF READING ABOUT PROTESTS, ABOUT ANTI ARMENIAN PROPAGANDA! IM SO FREGIN TIRED OF ALL THIS!
FOR HOW MUCH LONGER AM I GOING TO HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS?!

the intent was to protect turkey? by whiping out a nation? so whats your excuse? you were trying to protect your citisens? tell that to the 1.5 million armenians, or the 1 million assyrians, or the 800 000 greeks, or the syriacs, pontians, chaldeans...what do you have to say to all these people? whos lives and lands youv destroyed!
do you knot feel the pain of our people? the pictures and texts and accounts dont affect you? how do you sleep at night? knowing what the hell happened within your borders? how could you choose to turn your head and move to otherthings, without wondering. i know some who hate you to death! who wish for a turkish genocide! just so you can see what it feels like to have your culture spat on, your flags burnt, your nation destroyed! to whitness the demise of your entire family, of having to march a desert only to be led to a cliff off wich you will be shot and pushed into!

how could you ignore the seriousness of this event! how could you stand here today and say it never happened?
young turks never had the intent to kill armenians? so where does their fregin party slogan come in?! "turkey for the turks", where does this fit in?! if thats not a clear statement i dont know what is!

i am just glad i live in a free and reasonable country, that supports justice. last year, after his election to power, prime minister steven harper officially recognised the Armenian genocide. THANK YOU brave mister harper! this man is a true hero of our time! this is a man that deserves a round of applaus!

whilst erdogan is giving others lesons about freedom of speeche and human rights! can you believe the balls this man has?!

i hope he burns in hell!
long live armenia!
they are gone but NEVER forgotten! your lies will NEVER cover the truth!
i dont care if THE WHOLE WORLD lost hope, i still have it! you know why?
because 93 years later...WE ARE STILL HERE!

long live hyeasdan!
gamats gamats, polore bidi hasgenan, vor djisht mer cove, ge mena sadanan!

#57 shaunt

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:57 PM

Those who support or oppose this bill on the basis of their acceptance or denial of the Armenian genocide are equally misguided.

This law is unjust, and it is so because any attempt to thwart freedom of expression is injust.

#58 Lev7

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:59 PM

does not matter if it becomes a law or not, the noise has been made, this was on major news networks around the world. It may sound bad, but this is a great marketing plot for our cause

we will see what happens smile.gif

#59 Error 404

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 06:09 PM

shaunt ! DUDE !

They (turks) stealed, killed & raped your ancestors and now when someone is trying to condemn that you are telling it is an attempt to thwart freedom of expression ???

#60 Takoush

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 06:11 PM

IrlandaHay:

I am not fabricating about the German generals sitting down with the ittihadists and working with them tete-a-tete having meetings and such just before and around the Armenian Genocide. Read on some more and you'll see that in WW1 the German generals helped the turks with the Genocide matters.

I know that the German people are not at all what the nazis are about. The German people are classy people unlike the nazis. I also know that a great deal of German journalists took a lot of valuabel photos of the Genocide and the massacres and that's what we have today as a good sources of evidence. But the fact of the matter is that the Generals in WW1 were assisting the Turks and advising them how to go about the Genocide.

I have heard from sources that talaat's mother was Jewish. You or others could verify this if in doubt; but I did hear this from sources.

Yes I know of Morgenthau, the great Jewish man and how much he felt very bad for us and he has helped us a great deal and I love the man and his son and heirs. I know that he was also the source and his great influence on the then President Woodraw Wilson who tried to give some of our lands back to us. I love Franz Werfel too. I know how much and how many Armenian people Morgenthau tried to save in every which way he possibly could and tried hard; and I couldn't thank him enough beyond his sacred grave which I will always respect his greatness and his wonderful humanity towards us.

But I wasn't putting down the Jews here, I simply said about talaat's mother being a jew as I have heard from sources about this. Go ahead and verify it further.




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