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Turkish Researcher Arrested In Armenia


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#41 phantom22

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 11:27 AM

Arpa,

While I respect Bob Dole and his wife, I am clearly on the "other side of the fence politically." I have been honest about my American political leanings, even my being enamored by a Republican, John McCain. His personal story is one that is just awesome. To have spent five years in an enemy prison and to then have risen to become a US Senator. What Karl Rove did to him in South Carolina in 2000 shows what low-lifes are running the country (US).

You have finally come out of your Republican closet. You are either an elected Republican Armenian or an ardent supporter of the US Republican Party.

I agree that the researcher from Duke Univ. should be released IMMEDIATELY. This is the work of the succesor to the KGB. The Russians who do not want any rapproachement between Armenia and Turkey, lest Armenia drift more into the US sphere of influence.

#42 hytga

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 12:07 AM

QUOTE
US Senate Leader to Armenia: Set That Turk Free Immediately
Former US Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, known as a political ally of the Armenian cause, has reportedly written a letter of protest to Armenian President Robert Kocharian demanding the immediate release of Turkish citizen Yektan Turkyilmaz, who is currently being held in Yerevan on charges of trying to smuggle antique books out of the country. Turkyilmaz went to Armenia to make historical studies in archives. Turkish historians argue that no Turk can make any trip to Armenia after this case. Nilgun Gulcan from ISRO for instance says "the case is not legal but political".

Former US Senator Dole's letter to Kocharian asserts that Turkyilmaz, who is a doctorate student at Duke University,

and who has been held in Yerevan since June 17, is being held in prison based on "unintelligable charges."

Where did that law come from?

Dole also said in his letter to Kocharian that "even if the same law is found somewhere in the world, it is certainly not found in free countries."

The former US senator also noted that "while Armenia has many friends in the US, there is no way to defend the undefendable."

His wife was affected

Bob Dole's wife Elizabeth Dole, also a Duke University graduate, also apparently played a large role in encouraging his writing of the Kocharian letter.

Dr. Gulcan says Armenians do not want to see any Turk in Yerevan:

"They know that scientific searches will prove the sins in Armenian history. That's why they do not want to see any Turk in Armenia. They have many things to hide, including Armenian role in Nazi attacks against Jewish people".

JTW with Hurriyet
9 August 2005


the way these guys use and present things makes your head spin from laugh.

#43 armjan

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 12:16 AM

dude, why does this freakin glue guy hate armenians so much...
what a loser, i hope his kids grow up and leave him stranded.
where the hell did this bum get his ideas from...
turks had more to do with Nazism than armenians


QUOTE
"Dr. Gulcan says Armenians do not want to see any Turk in Yerevan:

"They know that scientific searches will prove the sins in Armenian history. That's why they do not want to see any Turk in Armenia. They have many things to hide, including Armenian role in Nazi attacks against Jewish people"."

Edited by armjan, 09 August 2005 - 12:20 AM.


#44 phantom22

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 03:11 AM

This is all part of the game that they have been playing for many years.

Where did they conjure this crap about Armenian Nazis?

When did Armenians ever kill Jews like the Turks who let a boatful of Jews drown in the Black Sea during WWII?.

#45 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (armjan @ Aug 9 2005, 01:16 AM)
dude, why does this freakin glue guy hate armenians so much...
what a loser, i hope his kids grow up and leave him stranded.
where the hell did this bum get his ideas from...
turks had more to do with Nazism than armenians


While in the majority of countries, PhD is a mark of credibility, it seems that it isen't the same for Turkey. The number of fools, with a Dr. title that have made such statments, it shows the level of credibility.

#46 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 09:00 AM

Presumably they are referring to Generals Dro and Nzhdeh, who, unfortunately, in their (understandable) anti-Soviet zeal, made the (not understandable, in my opninion) decision to collaborate with the Nazis, apparently in exchange for some post-war rewards for "liberated" Armenia. Not a proud part of our history. But also not what some of the Turks and their nutcase apologists like crazy as a coot Sam Weems would have it -- they make it sound like most Nazis were Armenians, and most Armenians were Nazis. Not the case, of course. Still, it is sad that any were.

QUOTE (phantom22 @ Aug 9 2005, 03:11 AM)
This is all part of the game that they have been playing for many years.

Where did they conjure this crap about Armenian Nazis?

When did Armenians ever kill Jews like the Turks who let a boatful of Jews drown in the Black Sea during WWII?.


#47 DominO

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 09:15 AM

QUOTE (mamigon @ Aug 9 2005, 10:00 AM)
Presumably they are referring to Generals Dro and Nzhdeh, who, unfortunately, in their (understandable) anti-Soviet zeal, made the (not understandable, in my opninion) decision to collaborate with the Nazis, apparently in exchange for some post-war rewards for "liberated" Armenia.  Not a proud part of our history.  But also not what some of the Turks and their nutcase apologists like crazy as a coot Sam Weems would have it -- they make it sound like most Nazis were Armenians, and most Armenians were Nazis.  Not the case, of course.  Still, it is sad that any were.


The thing is that the collaboration hasen't really gone over the prisoners of wars. The list of those enrolled show us that not more than Georgians there was, and a lot less than Tartars, Azeris etc. Armenians like Georgians were sent elsewhere because of the NAZI mistrust. And the front they "fought" was nearly "Jewish-free" for them to have participated in the destruction of European Jewry.

#48 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 11:10 AM

Agreed. I just wish that Armenians in general would be a little bit more open about Dro and Nzhdeh. Acknowledge that they were heroes for saving Armenia in 1918 or thereabouts and judge them harshly for collaborating with the Nazis, whatever their motives.

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Aug 9 2005, 09:15 AM)
The thing is that the collaboration hasen't really gone over the prisoners of wars. The list of those enrolled show us that not more than Georgians there was, and a lot less than Tartars, Azeris etc. Armenians like Georgians were sent elsewhere because of the NAZI mistrust. And the front they "fought" was nearly "Jewish-free" for them to have participated in the destruction of European Jewry.


#49 hytga

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 11:39 AM

QUOTE
Agreed. I just wish that Armenians in general would be a little bit more open about Dro and Nzhdeh. Acknowledge that they were heroes for saving Armenia in 1918 or thereabouts and judge them harshly for collaborating with the Nazis, whatever their motives.

even if those were to liberate armenia from soviet rule? it's not like they commited any crimes against humanity

#50 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 12:15 PM

Once you put on a Nazi uniform you are associating yourself in no uncertain terms with all that goes with them, including their crimes against humanity. Look, I know this is not cut and dry stuff -- no one would say that the Armenians who fought bravely against the Nazis for the Soviet Union should be associated with Stalin's crimes, for example. But Dro and Nzhdeh and some of the other fools who were trying to establish the Armenians' "Aryan" pedigree knew what they were doing and with whom they were doing it. But my understanding of things is that the actual role they played in the war was negligible.
QUOTE (hytga @ Aug 9 2005, 11:39 AM)
even if those were to liberate armenia from soviet rule? it's not like they commited any crimes against humanity


#51 Sasun

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE (mamigon @ Aug 9 2005, 02:15 PM)
But Dro and Nzhdeh and some of the other fools who were trying to establish the Armenians' "Aryan" pedigree knew what they were doing and with whom they were doing it.  But my understanding of things is that the actual role they played in the war was negligible.

"Fool" is not the word to use with names like Dro or Nzhdeh. Their dedication to our nation and extremely invaluable contributions put them in a very high rank, even if they collaborated with the Nazis, again for the sake of the survival of the Armenian nation. They are not perfect, so what? One cannot work for their nation as defence leaders and not have to collaborate one way or another with Nazis or Commis or whoever... Their selfless contributions far outweigh their deficiencies.

Edited by Sasun, 09 August 2005 - 12:44 PM.


#52 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:27 PM

True enough. "Fools" is the wrong word because it implies that these people were stupid or did not know what they were doing. Clearly they did. "Not perfect," though, makes it sound like they had occasional bad manners. It goes a bit beyond "not perfect." For me their mistakes do not negate their earlier achievements, but they should not be let off the hook, either. Henri Petain was one of France's greatest heroes in World War I and he sold the nation out to the Nazis in World War II -- allegedly to save the French nation. Is he revered as a hero or condemned as a traitor? I don't think they have too many statues of Petain in France. He was sentenced to death, later commuted to life in prison. Fair or not fair? Not for me to say. But when you get in bed with Nazis, my feeling is that you get what's coming to you.
QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 9 2005, 12:42 PM)
"Fool" is not the word to use with names like Dro or Nzhdeh. Their dedication to our nation and extremely invaluable contributions put them in a very high rank, even if they collaborated with the Nazis, again for the sake of the survival of the Armenian nation. They are not perfect, so what? One cannot work for their nation as defence leaders and not have to collaborate one way or another with Nazis or Commis or whoever... Their selfless contributions far outweigh their deficiencies.


#53 Sasun

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:47 PM

It is quite possible for us to come down to an age in history were Bush collaborators would be regarded politically unacceptable with similar implications as with Nazi collaborators. Times dictate certain behavior on part of leaders of nations. Whereas many nations collaborate opportunistically driven by selfish gain, some nations particularly small nations have no other choice. Such was the case for our nation when Dro collaborated with Nazis. He just wanted us to survive in case Turkey was to invade Armenia, and that is true even today when our president is forced to be a Bush collaborator (arguably, this may not be vital or even wise).
So, I could not place Dro on the same scale as let's say Mussolini or Henri Petain.

#54 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:10 PM

Until Bush plunges the entire world into war and is responsible for the death of millions of people -- a prospect which I wish were more far-fetched than it is -- then the Bush/Hitler analogy does not hold up. You're quite right that nations do what they have to do; but history should judge them accordingly. I fear that by your sliding scale, though, that we will come to the conclusion that Hitler was "just doing what he thought was best for Germany," Stalin was just doing "what he thought was best for Russia, and so on down to George Bush, who, as we know, has regular conversations with God about what is best for everyone. I mean, isn't "you just do what you have to do to help your nation survive" Talaat's best defense, too?
QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 9 2005, 01:47 PM)
It is quite possible for us to come down to an age in history were Bush collaborators would be regarded politically unacceptable with similar implications as with Nazi collaborators. Times dictate certain behavior on part of leaders of nations. Whereas many nations collaborate opportunistically driven by selfish gain, some nations particularly small nations have no other choice. Such was the case for our nation when Dro collaborated with Nazis. He just wanted us to survive in case Turkey was to invade Armenia, and that is true even today when our president is forced to be a Bush collaborator (arguably, this may not be vital or even wise).
So, I could not place Dro on the same scale as let's say Mussolini or Henri Petain.


#55 Sasun

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:27 PM

I hope the Bush administration will not stir more trouble in the world than it has already done, in which case he can't be compared to Hitler. However, he has already earned the status of a warmonger. Even though he has not killed millions of people, he has killed tens of thousands and has caused distress to millions, and continues to do so...
But that's not the main point. What a certain leader will say he is doing for his nation is not what matters. If they do it selfishly without regard to other nations than that's a crime. We just need to look objectively. How can one compare Dro to Stalin or Hitler?
Did Dro murder anyone to take their lands or properties? No.
Did Dro aggress against another country? No.
Did Dro attack peaceful people? No.
If Turkey invaded Armenia and Dro's contingency plan took place, would another nation suffer because Dro would try to halt the extinction of the Armenian nation. No, at least there was no indication that Dro planned to do anything else than defense.

Unless you disagree with the answers I really don't know how Dro can be compared to Talaat or Hitler or Stalin. If that was the case then Stalin's Marshal Baghramian should also be compared to Stalin, etc.

Edited by Sasun, 09 August 2005 - 02:28 PM.


#56 hytga

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:34 PM

mamigon your "observation" of dro or njdeh goin in bed with nazis is not entirely accurate. Germany allied itself with turkey in ww1, although now they appologised to armenians they had a chance to do something back then. Whereas it's not the case with dro or njdeh. They fought against soviets not with nazis. They didn't share the nazi ideology of race murder and moreover they couldnt've done anything about it. I understand your view but it's doesn't give anyone a right to even assume they joined the nazis because of ideology or that they approved of the nazi idology. They simply did what they thought was their best chance of freeing armenia from soviet rule

#57 Armat

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:43 PM

Just want to add that it is easy to judge history retrospectively but the events as they were unfolding were reasonable enough for Dro and others to act as they did. German advance was very rabid and by all indication it seemed they’d conquer Russia by no time hence the thinking beyond.
Had the Germans reached Caucuses it would have been wise to associate with the Germans or at least have plan "B" or be annihilated by the Turks who were watching and waiting to see the outcome of Stalingrad battle.
I did meet Dro’s late wife on two occasions and got to know her little bit and she and Dro were true patriots.

#58 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 03:36 PM

The point is not to compare Dro and Nzhdeh with Stalin and Hitler, but rather to caution against the "they were just doing what they thought was best for their nation" defense, which can be used by almost every tyrant in history. Obviously their actions do not rise to the horrible level of Hitler. But using nationalism as a defense for collaborating with the Nazis is weak.

As for your questions, I have to say I don't know the answers to them. I think it is an embarassment to the Armenian community that exactly what Dro did and why he did it has not been thoroughly researched and documented so that people can come to reasonable conclusions. It allows the Turks and their lackeys to wield this information as if it is a dirty secret that the Armenians do not want the world to know about -- which, to some extent, seems to be the case.
QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 9 2005, 02:27 PM)
I hope the Bush administration will not stir more trouble in the world than it has already done, in which case he can't be compared to Hitler. However, he has already earned the status of a warmonger. Even though he has not killed millions of people, he has killed tens of thousands and has caused distress to millions, and continues to do so...
But that's not the main point. What a certain leader will say he is doing for his nation is not what matters. If they do it selfishly without regard to other nations than that's a crime. We just need to look objectively. How can one compare Dro to Stalin or Hitler?
Did Dro murder anyone to take their lands or properties? No.
Did Dro aggress against another country? No.
Did Dro attack peaceful people? No.
If Turkey invaded Armenia and Dro's contingency plan took place, would another nation suffer because Dro would try to halt the extinction of the Armenian nation. No, at least there was no indication that Dro planned to do anything else than defense.

Unless you disagree with the answers I really don't know how Dro can be compared to Talaat or Hitler or Stalin. If that was the case then Stalin's Marshal Baghramian should also be compared to Stalin, etc.


#59 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 03:43 PM

"They fought against soviets not with nazis"? No offense, but that's not the way it works. If you wear the uniform of Nazis you are fighting with Nazis. You don't get to pick and choose like that. I do not assume they collaborated because they were dyed-in-the-wool Nazis. Frankly, I don't know. I give them the benefit of the doubt and say they made terrible decisions for perhaps reasonable goals. But still terrible decisions, nonetheless. They laid their money on Hitler. If Hitler had won they could have strutted around Yerevan in swastikas and basked in the glory of their achievement; and when Hitler was finished with them he would undoubtedly have had them killed. But Hitler lost, and they bet on the wrong horse. They should face the music, historically speaking, that is.
QUOTE (hytga @ Aug 9 2005, 02:34 PM)
mamigon your "observation" of dro or njdeh goin in bed with nazis is not entirely accurate. Germany allied itself with turkey in ww1, although now they appologised to armenians they had a chance to do something back then. Whereas it's not the case with dro or njdeh. They fought against soviets not with nazis. They didn't share the nazi ideology of race murder and moreover they couldnt've done anything about it. I understand your view but it's doesn't give anyone a right to even assume they joined the nazis because of ideology or that they approved of the nazi idology. They simply did what they thought was their best chance of freeing armenia from soviet rule


#60 mamigon

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 03:50 PM

Holy smokes, I'm sorry I got going on this, which I have finally figured out is one of the two or three Armenian taboo subjects. (I won't say what the others are.) It is one of the sickening aspects of all Armenian history that we end up having to choose sides between one exploitative power and another perhaps slightly more or less exploitative power. Persian or Roman? Byzantine or Turk? Turk or Russian? Soviet or Nazi? And so on. I know hindsight is 20/20. I guess what amazes me is that even in hindsight there are so many Armenians who are reluctant say that snuggling up with the Nazis was a bad idea.
QUOTE (Armat @ Aug 9 2005, 02:43 PM)
Just want to add that it is easy to judge history retrospectively but the events as they were unfolding were reasonable enough for Dro and others to act as they did. German advance was very rabid and by all indication it seemed they’d conquer Russia by no time hence the thinking beyond.
Had the Germans reached Caucuses it would have been wise to associate with the Germans or at least have plan "B" or be annihilated by the Turks who were watching and waiting to see the outcome of Stalingrad battle.
I did meet Dro’s late wife on two occasions and got to know her little bit and she and Dro were true patriots.





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