Jump to content


Photo

First U.s. City To Ban All Smoking


  • Please log in to reply
176 replies to this topic

#161 DominO

DominO

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 December 2006 - 02:13 AM

QUOTE(Azat @ Dec 28 2006, 02:54 AM) View Post
ahhhh this is great news Mr Fadi... So now that you agree that there can be establishments that are completely for smokers, lets see if we agree on this. I as the proprietor can open up a restaurant for smokers and if a non smoker comes in its up to them, but they cant bitch about the smoke covering up the odor of their food and such. agree?


Where did I disagree with that? I already in this thread agreed that I have no problem with that, if it is specified it is a smoker establishment and for adults only. Private and not public. My disagreement was Nairi claim that the owner should decide for a public place, like a restorant. If a restorant owner should have a smokers restorant, so be it, but it should not be considered as a public place, but a private place open to adults.

#162 Stormig

Stormig

    Still water runs deep...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts
  • Location:Je sais pas

Posted 28 December 2006 - 02:13 AM

QUOTE(Aubépine @ Dec 26 2006, 06:41 PM) View Post
A bit young, but then you can't take her to fine dining restaurants. tongue.gif

Brilliant.

#163 Stormig

Stormig

    Still water runs deep...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts
  • Location:Je sais pas

Posted 28 December 2006 - 02:22 AM

QUOTE(Azat @ Dec 27 2006, 07:23 PM) View Post
Indoor or Outdoor. But I want medical journal stats not just some organization. I can give you some heads up if you want. On JAMA(Journal of American Medical Association) which is the most respected journal in the health industry you are going to find that Majority of the stats like 25,000+ people die from second hand smoke is false. the numbers are much lower. MUCH

My main problem as I have stated before is that the business should make that decision and not the government if they are going to allow smokers or not.

How would many of you feel if the government passed laws against serving beef in all restaurants as we all know eating red meat increases the chances of getting colon cancer. Also the smoke from grilling increases the chances of getting cancer. Lets ban that as well...

I don't think we have to die to elect that pollution is bad - and by that I don't necessarily mean cigarette smoke but everything from pesticides to detergents. So who dies from detergents or pesticides, huh?

#164 Stormig

Stormig

    Still water runs deep...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts
  • Location:Je sais pas

Posted 28 December 2006 - 02:24 AM

QUOTE(Azat @ Dec 28 2006, 07:54 AM) View Post
ahhhh this is great news Mr Domino... So now that you agree that there can be establishments that are completely for smokers, lets see if we agree on this. I as the proprietor can open up a restaurant for smokers and if a non smoker comes in its up to them, but they cant bitch about the smoke covering up the odor of their food and such. agree?

Absolutely agree here.
And on the note about beef... It's not even a comparison.

#165 Aubépine

Aubépine

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 250 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 28 December 2006 - 03:16 AM

QUOTE(Stormig @ Dec 28 2006, 10:13 AM) View Post
Brilliant.


On second thought I totally forgot about happy meals. smile.gif

#166 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 05:19 AM

QUOTE(QueBeceR @ Dec 27 2006, 07:43 PM) View Post
Your logic is totally flawed.

You can not compare a non-act with an act. Non-smoking is there by default, it is not the logical opposit of smoking, it is simply a non act.

Just for comparaison, lets take two situation, you going to work, or rather deciding to sleep. Here we have two acts, the act of sleeping and the act of going to work. Both being acts, there could be laws regulating both, because we can place a law on an act.

Non-smoking is even not an act, it is there by default. How can you compare regulating smoking which is an act by itself, with something there by default, which actually is not an act.

For those reasons, you can not in anyway compare smoking with non-smoking in terms of regulations. You can not compare a restriction of non-smoking in the streets with a restriction of smoking in the streets.

How could non-smoking in anyway affect the liberty of those serounding this non smoker, when this guy/girl, isen't even commiting an act?


I knew you'd respond with this. The point was why you should restrict (=act) me from smoking when I am tolerant enough not to force you to smoke (=act). In other words, I am all for non-smoking restaurants, bars, and clubs, even if they don't attract a flee. This basically means that if I step into a non-smoking restaurant, bar, or club, I will behave accordingly, i.e. not light up. But why is it that "neko" (and his consorts) have so much trouble allowing smoking restaurants, bars, and clubs, among other enclosed establishments?

#167 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 05:20 AM

QUOTE(QueBeceR @ Dec 28 2006, 01:45 AM) View Post
We live in a society, and unlike what Nairi seems to believe we are not free to do whatever we want.


I have never supported anarchy, so I don't see where you got this from.

#168 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 05:25 AM

QUOTE(QueBeceR @ Dec 28 2006, 09:13 AM) View Post
My disagreement was Nairi claim that the owner should decide for a public place, like a restorant.


But Domino, a restaurant is private by definition!! Besides, you're changing your tune; which in this discussion can only be a good thing, i.e. you have now finally come to conclusion that maybe it's okay for owners to choose what they want to do with their own establishments.

#169 DominO

DominO

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 December 2006 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE(nairi @ Dec 28 2006, 06:25 AM) View Post
But Fadi, a restaurant is private by definition!! Besides, you're changing your tune; which in this discussion can only be a good thing, i.e. you have now finally come to conclusion that maybe it's okay for owners to choose what they want to do with their own establishments.


I did not meant public as defined as being to the collectivity or being to the government. But public places as somewhere the general population meet. Restorants are considered as public by that definition even if private. When I meant private, I meant a place not considered to be for the general population but a selected number of people, adults and smokers.

A typical restorant is public when it is open to the general population, since opened to non-smokers, I think it is the least to do to restrict smoking.

#170 DominO

DominO

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 December 2006 - 11:48 AM

QUOTE(nairi @ Dec 28 2006, 06:19 AM) View Post
I knew you'd respond with this. The point was why you should restrict (=act) me from smoking when I am tolerant enough not to force you to smoke (=act). In other words, I am all for non-smoking restaurants, bars, and clubs, even if they don't attract a flee. This basically means that if I step into a non-smoking restaurant, bar, or club, I will behave accordingly, i.e. not light up. But why is it that "neko" (and his consorts) have so much trouble allowing smoking restaurants, bars, and clubs, among other enclosed establishments?


Here is something you don't understand. You can not restrict non-smokers to access somewhere. If you do that you are beinf prejudicial, the comparaison is not valid. There are no restorants or other public places where they restrict smokers, they restrict smoking in such restorants, they restrict the act. If you restrict non-smokers you restrict a non-act, so for that person to go there, he/she will be forced to smoke even if not a smoker. Non-smoking is there by default, a smoker by not smoking is not commiting the act of non-smoking, and when non comiting that act, he/she is free to go anywhere he/she wants.

#171 MosJan

MosJan

    Էլի ԼաՎա

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,242 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:My Little Armenia

Posted 29 December 2006 - 11:56 PM



#172 Anonymouse

Anonymouse

    Julius Caesar was a salad dressing dude!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE(neko @ Dec 23 2006, 08:20 PM) View Post
I guess someone of your youth and blind arrogance hasn't yet got the undersanding that most people don't work for the fun of it - they work because they have to, and they do not have the luxury to pick-and-choose jobs.

With your well-developed ideology, why not start up a business using children to clean chimneys - it'll be OK because based on your reasoning they will all be knowingly going into that kind of work. And why not open a match factory, use phosphorus chemicals, and market them as "Ye Old Traditional Matches" at a premium price - won't matter that your workers will all get cancer because they will all be knowingly going into that kind of work. Want more business opportunites? There will be a ready market for a cheap providor of asbestos disposal methods - all the cost comes from protecting the employees, so you will be able to slash those costs using your unique morality. And because your workers will know the risks it will be OK that they will be all dead by 60.


Do I smell a fusion of Lenin, Mao and Chomsky? I could have sworn I was talking to The Left with his high brow intellectual "Do as I say" attitude.

Nice job of avoiding the main point against your fallacious reasoning. To date, you have not redeemed your poor analytical and reasoning in establishing your pitiful argument.

People work because they have to and some work because they enjoy, wow such wisdom! We certainly did not know that one! Thanks for pointing that out Captain Obvious. However, that is not the issue. There are many jobs to choose from. Does working as a bouncer or a bartender at a bar/restaurant prevent person A from doing something else that does not expose him to alot of second hand smoke? Chances are, he likes what he is doing because he probably likes to serve drinks to hot chicks who he can potentially hook up with, or the bouncer likes the feeling of power to boot people and bully people. Think about what you're talking about nerfbrain, and then take your high brow, "I'm older and I know better" attitude to the ballet wearing a Chairman Mao hat.



#173 neko

neko

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 295 posts

Posted 30 December 2006 - 09:01 PM

Mr Anonymouse, you took a while to reply. have you only now recovered from your Christmas celebrations? You should have waited another 24 hours to post, and then I could have said "I waited a whole year for your reply and when it came it wasn't worth the wait!" tongue.gif

#174 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 22 June 2008 - 09:00 PM

As a ten-day old non-smoker who smoked for a good fifteen years of her life, I think I have the right to share my opinion here about life as a non-smoker and about people who complain about second-hand smoke and how it supposedly kills millions of lives every year.

Here's my experience: I still like the smell of smoke, even though it gives me a light headache when I smell it. Maybe it's because I've avoided all cigarette smoke for ten days, so it hit me harder yesterday than it normally would have. But here's what hit my head even harder today: the smell of gasoline. I remember feeling sick as a kid whenever we stopped at a gas station or drove long-distance. I never felt the headache and nausea so strongly in all the years that I smoked, probably because smoking suppressed my sense of smell and had a settling effect on my stomach. But now that I quit smoking, the smell hit my head like a brick and stirred my heart (to use an Armenian expression). I've been home for a good eight hours now, but I'm still feeling sick from the car ride and the smell of gasoline.

Which leaves me with only one plausible conclusion: if cigarette smoke merely gives me a light headache that fades almost as soon as I move away from it, but gasoline literally paralizes me all day after a slight whiff of it, it can only mean one thing: a whiff of gasoline must be much more harmful than a deep inhalation of smoke from a cigarette.

Which got me thinking.. I happened to catch a recent film on TV the other day (The Life of David Gale (2003)), in which Kate Winslet's character gives her smoking partner a dirty look and tells him that she can still smell his disgusting cigarette, even though he's standing about 500 meters away from her, in the cold and rain. Ironically, just seconds later, we see her step into a car and drive off into a beautifully isolated landscape in Arizona (or was it Texas?--whatever). It got me thinking.. It has become so acceptable and trendy to bash smokers that we are forgetting to point our fingers at the real evildoers, namely, drivers. Apparently it's okay to isolate smokers into tiny cabins where they choke on their own smoke, and it's okay to ban them from just about everywhere, including the streets, but it's not okay to stigmatize and punish guzzlers of gas for their habits.

So.. next time a non-smoking driver or consumer of gasoline (such as people standing at a bus-stop waiting for that gas-guzzling monster) complains in that typically annoying way complaining non-smokers do about second-hand smoke supposedly bothering their precious nostrils and lungs, I will do exactly the same every time they step into their cars or on the bus, recklessly farting out their gasoline into my precious nostrils, lungs, brains, and stomach.

P.S.: I know Domino mentioned something earlier about the hypocrisy of banning cigarettes when cars are still allowed to drive freely on gasoline, but I only really understood what the difference was on a personal level (as opposed to an environmental study) after being reminded of the effects that gasoline has on sober me. And, of course, it is hypocritical, especially coming from a country like the US, where all this "second-hand smoke kills"-propaganda started, when even a two-year-old knows that you'll live longer as a chain smoker in the plains of Mongolia than as a non-smoker in Los Angeles.

Edited by nairi, 22 June 2008 - 09:03 PM.


#175 Anonymouse

Anonymouse

    Julius Caesar was a salad dressing dude!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 25 June 2008 - 06:03 PM

Wow, a quitter.

My own philosophy on quitting was that I had gone a significant amount (almost 30 days) and to resort back to it would be pointless. "If I have gone that long without smoking, to do so now, well...it would throw all of that time I withstood the urges down to the gutter and I would have to start all over."

I'm lazy. So I figured I better quit once and it better be the first time. It's been 7 months.

Edited by Anonymouse, 25 June 2008 - 06:04 PM.


#176 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:17 AM

The only thing that has motivated me so far to not relapse has been to remind myself why I decided to quit in the first place.

#177 DominO

DominO

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 June 2008 - 12:59 AM

Your comparaison with gasoline is subjective because nictotine creates desensibilization of some receptors. This is why your subjective experience was that gasoline would be much worst.

Gasoline is genotoxic and mutagenic, however for the lungs cigarettes are worst, at least in a common city, not somewhere like the major highway in Mexico. People who have their homes at a distance of less than 500m from a major highway have less efficient lungs. Where gasoline is worst than cigarette in terms of causing cancer is in the more rarer forms of cancers, so in the immediate lung cancers being with colon cancer the forms of cancers which kills the more people, that's where tobacco has been the target.

However gasoline act in a much longer distance and is much more indiscriminate, it has also obviously much more impact for the environnement and in the long term its consequences are millions of time worst than tobacco. It is still highly hypocritical for anyone with jumbo 4X4s to criticise those who smoke when they trow their cars reject in our face.

QUOTE (nairi @ Jun 22 2008, 11:00 PM)
As a ten-day old non-smoker who smoked for a good fifteen years of her life, I think I have the right to share my opinion here about life as a non-smoker and about people who complain about second-hand smoke and how it supposedly kills millions of lives every year.

Here's my experience: I still like the smell of smoke, even though it gives me a light headache when I smell it. Maybe it's because I've avoided all cigarette smoke for ten days, so it hit me harder yesterday than it normally would have. But here's what hit my head even harder today: the smell of gasoline. I remember feeling sick as a kid whenever we stopped at a gas station or drove long-distance. I never felt the headache and nausea so strongly in all the years that I smoked, probably because smoking suppressed my sense of smell and had a settling effect on my stomach. But now that I quit smoking, the smell hit my head like a brick and stirred my heart (to use an Armenian expression). I've been home for a good eight hours now, but I'm still feeling sick from the car ride and the smell of gasoline.

Which leaves me with only one plausible conclusion: if cigarette smoke merely gives me a light headache that fades almost as soon as I move away from it, but gasoline literally paralizes me all day after a slight whiff of it, it can only mean one thing: a whiff of gasoline must be much more harmful than a deep inhalation of smoke from a cigarette.

Which got me thinking.. I happened to catch a recent film on TV the other day (The Life of David Gale (2003)), in which Kate Winslet's character gives her smoking partner a dirty look and tells him that she can still smell his disgusting cigarette, even though he's standing about 500 meters away from her, in the cold and rain. Ironically, just seconds later, we see her step into a car and drive off into a beautifully isolated landscape in Arizona (or was it Texas?--whatever). It got me thinking.. It has become so acceptable and trendy to bash smokers that we are forgetting to point our fingers at the real evildoers, namely, drivers. Apparently it's okay to isolate smokers into tiny cabins where they choke on their own smoke, and it's okay to ban them from just about everywhere, including the streets, but it's not okay to stigmatize and punish guzzlers of gas for their habits.

So.. next time a non-smoking driver or consumer of gasoline (such as people standing at a bus-stop waiting for that gas-guzzling monster) complains in that typically annoying way complaining non-smokers do about second-hand smoke supposedly bothering their precious nostrils and lungs, I will do exactly the same every time they step into their cars or on the bus, recklessly farting out their gasoline into my precious nostrils, lungs, brains, and stomach.

P.S.: I know Domino mentioned something earlier about the hypocrisy of banning cigarettes when cars are still allowed to drive freely on gasoline, but I only really understood what the difference was on a personal level (as opposed to an environmental study) after being reminded of the effects that gasoline has on sober me. And, of course, it is hypocritical, especially coming from a country like the US, where all this "second-hand smoke kills"-propaganda started, when even a two-year-old knows that you'll live longer as a chain smoker in the plains of Mongolia than as a non-smoker in Los Angeles.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users