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Iranisms In Armenian Language?


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#21 Teutonic Knight

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 12:48 PM

Armenians from Iran speak like this: Mameeeen babeeeeen daneeeeeeeeen? Inchbes eeeeeeeeeeeeeees?
lol
It's like they sing smile.gif

#22 Iran01

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 12:53 PM

Arpa
what is your background? Are you born in Iran or ..?

#23 MiB

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 12:55 PM

Dear Iran01,

Thank you very much for your post and for your help.

1. The word “derafsh” sounds rather old Armenian. The new Armenian form is “drosh”. And, in general, in many old Armenian words the letters av, af turn to o when that word over time gets transformed into newer Armenian.

2. I understand your point about Talish and Tat (=Parsi) people in Aran. Recently I read some of their websites. Their situation seems to be very hard indeed. Assimilation seems to be a very hard process for a handful of nationally-oriented Tats and Talishs.
A site I recently found is: www.Talishica.org (it is mostly in Russian, but you can open an English thread in their Forum...)
Very interestingly, recently a Talish guy wrote there: “And where are our Iranis? Why don’t they help us?”. Very hard to read that indeed....

3. Well, I too find Arpa’s post too offensive and inappropriate. Whatever the Persians do and whichever other alphabet they choose (if they choose another one) it is not our business to “illuminate” them and to suggest our alphabet. Even if the Armenian alphabet serves Persian language and its dialects very well, Iran need not accept our alphabet because the latter is too national, and historically and “psychologically” is connected with Armenians. The old alphabet of Avesta, or the newer Pehlavi alphabet are the best candidates. Saying this we should bear in mind that it can be a very dangerous thing to change the alphabet in a country like Iran. For, currently Islam is one of the main unifying factors of polytechnic Iran! So if you switch to Avestan alphabet, then the Turks of Tabriz may wish to switch to the Turkish pseudo-Latin alphabet... So take care...

All the best,

#24 Iran01

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 01:23 PM

Dear MiB

Thank you for your friendly words.

Yes , I know Talishi/Tati have hard time, I know they , specially the Talishi are very aware of thier heritage. Indeed they are very gentle and friendly people.
I checked the site and read the English section and could see their hearts beats for thier culture. Thier mythology / culture is closer to Armenia then to Baku!
They are a very aceint people.

What goes for Iranian Azari, yes there are a few Panturks who day and night insult Irans past and lie a lot about the history. But they are few. The majority of Iranian Azari are IRANIAN. Just to undertand how Iranian Azari think, if you can read Persian , this single thread at this forum which is very popular among Iranian is in 110 pages !
http://www.goftmaan....88&page=1&pp=30
A few Panturks day and night lie there and those who defend Iran are Iranian Azari.

Yes a strange and dangoures time we are going to meet. Islam or more correctly Shiaism has done its job. Right know it is killing Iran. What ever happen , Irans Azarbaijan will never never be aparat from Iran. It is too compilicated. Maybe south part or east part get apart but not Azarbaijan.

Edited by Iran01, 21 May 2004 - 01:25 PM.


#25 Arpa

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 04:05 PM

Offensive?
I think not!
Provocative?
Maybe!
Would I be offended if you were to tell me to forget this Jesus gobbledigook and get back to basics?
No!
Why?
Mainly because we/I have been Armenians at least two thousand years before the world had ever heard of Jesus, and we will still be Armenians two thousands years hence when people may say "Jesus who?"

Yes, at times I do use STRONG language. OFFENSIVE? Not my intention since I even have deep and sincere respect of people who have strong convictions about the Jesus cult or the Mohammed cult for that matter. ( I have expressed my PERSONAL religious conviction, or the lack thereof on many occasions). I can live without (organized, bigoted and divisive) religion. Can You?
So, why can't we get back to days when we were lovers, in the full sense of the word, making love one day and war the next, where we left off before the disciples of Jesus on the one hand and the those of Mohammed on the other drove us apart. Majority of us here are not descendants the "House of David" nor do we descend from the "House of Saud" in Mecca.

My offer of the Mesropian Alphabet is sincere, I have done it before, and I will probably do it again. In this day and age when we use such words as TV instead of herustatesutyun and "merci" instead of "tashakkurat" and "shun-orh-na-kal yem" why would one go through the trouble again and re-invent what has already been invented. In fact I/we would be delighted and honored if my/our offer were accepted and a (Mesropian)script and alphabet that at the present is acknowledged by less than 8 million people, half of which would not recognise the letter Ayb if it hit them in the face, would be adopted by our friendly neighbors and augment the ranks of the users to 60?, 70? or at least 100 million, what with the Afghanis, the Tajiks, Beluchis, Talish, who else?

This may be new to some.

Up until 431 AD, some century and a half after our mass adoption of Christainity we were using alien scripts, be they Greek, Assyrian or else, when it was deemed necessary that we have our own alphabet so as to enable the common people get the "message" in their own vernacular, since Greek and Assyrian were the sole property of the intelligentsia (read clergy), and that at that status quo, in a short time we would be either absorbed into Greek or Assyrian. That is when the Patriarch St. Sahak, shrewd and wise politician that he was concluded that our only redemption lay in having our own script. In walks Mesrop Mashtots, the consummate scientist as he was an equally qualified monk, missionary and politician in his own right. He travelled to every corner of the then known world, all the way from Athens, to Persepolis, to Babylonia and Alexandria. He studied every existing and non-existent script, he considered the pros and cons of each, all the way from adequacy to cultural and political, considerations such as detached or linked as in the Semitic? Right to left or left to right?(A highly political issue). Do they have all the symbols to all the sounds that we have?

Conclusion?
Neither of the above!
He had to devise and invent a totally new system to cover all of the above.

And... voila!

He spent years of research. Much blood, tears and sweat. And, as the kindergarten/Sunday School legend would have us, one night, when he was close to death of exhaustion, he closed his eyes for a moment, amd, here it was, the hand of God writing our Mesropian Alphabet on the wall.

Is it a God-given script?

Why not!

Consider that people and empires so many times mightier than we ever were have long bit the dust since.

Why don't we write in Assyrian or Greek today?

The former was already in their twilight at that time, and the Latter, in (culturally humane) contrast did not use the "sword" to hellenize us as those from Mecca did. Of all the people that succumbed to the "sword of Allah" Armenians were the only ones spared. Will I pay tribute to our religious leaders here if I say that our Church spared us from the "sword of Mohammed"??

So be it!!

Amen!!

In other words.
What is the difference between one religion and another?
They are all designed for the least humanly and humanely cerebral among us. Those who cannot think for themselves, those who cannot distinguish right from wrong, sin from morality, crime from good citizenship somebody else will do it for them.

End of sermon.

And come to think of it, today is not even Sunday or the Sabbath... oops.gif excuse me! It is Jum'a!

#26 Iran01

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 06:57 AM

Here is another Armenian's commander in Persian army.


http://www.armenianc...tan/lesson.html

And another important person was a certain Armenian named Vasag Sewny. Vasag was what is called a marzbahn. No, that's not a candy. It's the name for commanders in Persian Armenia who were appointed by the king. Vasag was an ambitious marzbahn who wanted his fellow Armenians to join Persia, mostly so that he himself could be powerful.


http://www.livius.or...dadarshi01.html

Dâdarši: name of an Armenian general serving under the Persian king Darius I the Great (522-486 BCE), known for his expedition along the Tigris to Armenia.

Edited by Iran01, 22 May 2004 - 07:01 AM.


#27 Stormig

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 09:58 AM

QUOTE (Iran01 @ May 22 2004, 12:57 PM)
And another important person was a certain Armenian named Vasag Sewny. Vasag was what is called a marzbahn. No, that's not a candy. It's the name for commanders in Persian Armenia who were appointed by the king.

Not entirely unfamiliar with that.

QUOTE
"In the year 489 (AD 1040), I, Ablgharib, marzipan of the Armenians, ..."


http://www.virtualan...k/abughamrents/

#28 Iran01

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 10:38 AM

By reading you get better understanding of history!
According to Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi : " Another elite cavalry group was the Armenian one, whom the Persians accorded particular honour"
http://www.iranchamb...sanian_army.php
(It seems to me the Armenian cavalry came next after the "the immortals" !
It is understandable why the Sassanids didnt like to lose Armenia. Since they had problem with the north east and nomadic tribes and the Roman on west side.)




Found another Armenian words in Persian!
Kust: side, district.... read more on page 39.
http://www.sasanika.com/Shahrestan.pdf

#29 Armat

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 10:54 AM

Having born in Tehran but growing up in Armenia I learned to unlearn.

#30 Iran01

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 12:03 PM

I hope it isnt bad memory!

I was born in north east. There were a few Armenian families, maybe hundred.. mostly farmers , living there. My sister was friend to one of the Armenian girls. She used to visit our house sometimes for lunch... I was maybe 12-13 years old and liked her a lot. She (18-19 years old) knew that and used to tease me for that.
It wasnt so good for my relation to girls for a long time sad.gif

Later when learned to drive used to visit an Armenian farmer to buy "haram" stuff: wine, wild swin.. biggrin.gif He used to hunt wild swin in the area.

Later at my first job had an Armenian co-worker. He wasnt Gods best child.
He was realy ugly and bad minded. He was maybe 20 years older than me, and it tooks me a while to understand his mentality and how to handle him.
I still can recall his strong accent : "baCHe mosalmUN chetOri?"
(How are you muslim child? ) biggrin.gif

#31 Harut

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE (Iran01 @ May 22 2004, 08:38 AM)
Found another Armenian words in Persian!
Kust: side, district.... read more on page 39.
http://www.sasanika.com/Shahrestan.pdf

i don't know about the origin, but this word is not widely used in modern armenian anymore. and when it is used, it is used as kusht.

...
Ժամանակով Կարուն ճոն էր,
Շունն էլ գըլխին գըդակ չուներ,
Միայն, գիտեմ ոչ՝ որդիանց որդի
Ճանկել էր մի գառան մորթի:
Եկավ մի օր, ձմեռվան մըտին,
Կատվի կուշտը տարավ մորթին:
...

Հ. Թումանյան, Շունն Ու Կատուն, 1886 թ

#32 Iran01

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 04:16 PM

QUOTE (Harut @ May 22 2004, 02:38 PM)
i don't know about the origin, but this word is not widely used in modern armenian anymore. and when it is used, it is used as kusht.

 

I have never seen it be used in modern Persian but it is there in dictionary as "koste" ( region).

Anyway it says "Kuste" : Armenian loand word , "kois" (side), "koshte" (the waist, the belly).

Another interesting word is "narseh" , "narses" or "narsesh"!
Is it in use in modern Armenian? (It should means : son or male.)

Edited by Iran01, 22 May 2004 - 04:16 PM.


#33 Arpa

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 04:44 PM

QUOTE (Harut @ May 22 2004, 08:38 PM)
i don't know about the origin, but this word is not widely used in modern armenian anymore. and when it is used, it is used as kusht.


QUOTE
Found another Armenian word in Persian!
Kust: side, district.... read more on page 39.
http://www.sasanika.com/Shahrestan.pdf


Mais, au contraire Herr Harut we use it everyday.
We have to be careful because here we are splitting hair, so to speak.
There are two "kust"s in the Iranian language, it may be confusing because of inadequate fonts. One is the plain S and the other with the S with a diacritical above that in fact will be read as "kusht".

(I have to be careful here as well as some spellings may seem offensive to those who know Farsi.)

We must also tread cautiously because when it is all said and done both words may somehow point to the same direction(oops.gif no pun intended wink.gif)

Let us first lay aside the one that at times is spelled "kusht".
As we can see from the quote above it is talking about the "cat's abdomen". It may be a bit off the mark but it will do since in the Armenian the word is usually used to refer to the abdomen in usages such "kshtanal/to satiate", "ankusht/unsatiated/still hungry". It is supposed to be from the Pahlavi that in a way refers to the "side" except that in this case the anatomical side as in rib that usually appears in the Armenian as "kogh", from which "koghm" which is "side" in the directional sense. Since we use the latter to mean rib/side kusht has moved a little inwards and it refers to the stomach area hence its common use as kusht/well fed v ankusht/unfed.

As to "kust" with the plaine S, it does indeed mean side in the broader sense except that as a rule the last letter has been dropped and it appears as "kus". I hope I am offending anybody. smile.gif
It appears not so much in itself but in many compound words like qarakusi/four sided/square, kusaktsutyun/faction/political party, kusakron/celibate etc. The first two are kind of self explanatory since a square has four sides/kuses, a faction is that has stepped aside, but to undestand the last one we have to invoke another variation, namley "kuys/virgin/celibate" based on the assumption that a celibate, person of either gender has chosen to step aside of the society and chosen a life on the "side"lines.
As to the use of the word as "region" consider such as "kusakal/governor" which in fact may mean the governor of a side/separate region.

There may be many more examples but suffice it to say that some have suggested that "kus/kust" as in side (of a square) may have been derived from the Persian "kosheh" that means "corner".

smile.gif smile.gif Keep quiet Sip or else I will have yout surname changed to Kir-a-kos-ian. smile.gif smile.gif

Btw. Dear Iran01 there are many more words and names in that site that are common to both Armenian and Persian.

Btw. The Arabs use the k** word in the same sense. Is that wher the English slang "cuss" comes from?.

#34 nairi

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 05:01 PM

Arpa, that is very true what you say about kusht/ankusht. It's still an up and alive word in modern Armenian. At least in my family smile.gif

About kust being side/corner etc., it got me thinking. Would the word "kust" and "Küste" in Dutch and German respectively, and its English form "coast" come from "kust"? Sounds very plausible.

By the way my dictionary says for kusht (second entry): 1) aside, side; 2) near.

Kusht kshti: next to each other.

By the way, I'd like to move this topic to language if everyone is ok with it. Seems more appropriate there than here.

#35 Iran01

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 05:15 PM

Arpa !!!

you are the most strange Armenian I have ever seen! sad.gif

The man who wrote that article is Prof at Shiraz University.
Here is a list of the board at that site: http://www.sasanika.com/board.htm

#36 MiB

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 05:25 PM

> By the way, I'd like to move this topic to language if everyone is ok with it. Seems more appropriate there than here.

I agree.

By the way, later I will write a more detailed post concerning the points you guys rised.
:-)

MiB


P.S. The word kusht in Erzrum dialekt of Armenian language (now spoken in Javakhk, for example) still is widely used and means side, to be at something...

#37 Iran01

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 01:59 AM

Sorry Arpa ! you are right.


Zarathushtrians have a ceremony when they "baptize", which is called : "Koshti" !
They tie a small rope around the belly :


(in Persian script : http://www.oshihan.o...edrehpooshi.htm )

I was reading on article by Mr Jamali and according to him it symbolise rebirth, virgin......etc.
( In Persian script : http://www.jamali-on...eshe_shad_2.htm )

#38 Stormig

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 02:53 AM

Do I see a coupla WASP's in there? I thought Zoroastrians did not accept converts.

#39 Iran01

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 03:44 AM

Yes, they do accept, but:

In Iran because of persecution risk they dont accept, even the muslim who leave islam he/she will be punish by death. ( Ofcourse because of Islamic "culture" many Iranians DO not better and think they are "Gavur", dirty .... mad.gif . But new wave of awakeness is on the way and for ex in Sweden and Belgium new Zarathushtrianism is started by some new converts:
http://www.bozorgbaz...-zartoshti.html
"....If you wish to learn or convert in Zoroastrianism you may contact us by E-Mail and we will arrange the conversion service free of charge no matter where your location is..."



In india, some of the Parsi do not accept converts. I dont know why. I guess they are a small comunity they behave "strange"..or since they took refuge in India from Islams persecution ..they show respect to Hinduism..etc. I dont know.

Otherwise outside Iran they DO accept converts,:

RUSSIA : http://www.oshihan.o...SHI_RUSSIA2.jpg
Belarus : http://www.oshihan.o...ges/Belarus.htm
sanJose : http://www.oshihan.o...shi_sanJose.htm
Vancouver : http://www.oshihan.o...edrehPooshi.htm
London : http://www.raasti.com/sedre1.htm

#40 Stormig

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 04:08 AM

Yeah, OK. I guess it doesn't help that my only contact with Zoroastrians was a Parsee. I had found it strange that for a religion that endorsed such things as right, good, justice, etc., they were being so ethnocentric. This only contact of mine had said that children born of a marriage of one Parsee and one non-Zoroastrian would be accepted so long as it was the father that was a Zoroastrian. I had said, Gee, how do you know what the mom brings into wedlock?? He had said that in that sense the Jewish tradition of taking the mother as basis certainly made more sense. Hadn't thought about it that way. :| Anyway - anyone know of the Zoroastrian fire temple at Ani? biggrin.gif




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