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Loan Words In The Armenian Language


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#21 Anoushik

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 05:04 PM

Thank you, Arpa.

#22 Yeznig

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:49 AM

Another thanks and many congratulations too to add to that of Anoushik's.

What a delight to see it in English.

Have circulated this translation - it deserves to be so, and far and wide too!

Why not send it to Ararat - in New York and to Groong. Groong features a 'Critical Corner' and I am sure its editor would welcome it.

#23 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (Yeznig @ Dec 13 2003, 06:37 PM)
There is no problem using imported (loan) words when no adequate Armenian equivalent exists or when the words are internationalised - telefon, video, cinema etc - for which of course quite adequate and charming Armenian words do exist.


I totally agree with this argument. However, there is also another problem - when people "translate into Armenian" some foreign words in a very non-Armenian way. A perfect example is the word "inknatir" from the Russian word "samoliot" (airplane.) And this when there is a perfect word for it in Armenian - "otanav/odanav."

Furthermore, there are some pathetic and cheesy words borrowed from other languages which have become inseparable fixtures of Armenian mainstream culture, as tasteless as they are, while one would not use their Armenian equivalents in a similar context. An example is the word "djan," i.e. "enker djan." As Tomanian mentions in one of his publicistic articles, this word, when translated from Persian, means "hogiaks." In an everyday context, when you go around and say "enker, hogiaks," you would be just ridiculed or the other person may feel offended.

Edited by MJ, 14 December 2003 - 11:31 AM.


#24 Yeznig

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE (MJ @ Dec 14 2003, 11:20 AM)
I totally agree with this argument. However, there is also another problem - when people "translate into Armenian" some foreign words in a very non-Armenian way.  A perfect example is the word "inknatir" from the Russian word "samoliot" (airplane.) And this when there is a perfect word for it in Armenian - "otanav/odanav."

Interestingly I thought 'odanav' referred to areoplane while 'inknatir' to helicpoter.

#25 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Yeznig @ Dec 14 2003, 01:42 PM)
Interestingly I thought 'odanav' referred to areoplane while 'inknatir' to helicpoter.

Helicopter is "ughghatir." When hearing that word, my sould does not protest. I think it is a better translation, though it is a direct implementation from the Russian language.

#26 Arpa

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (MJ @ Dec 14 2003, 05:20 PM)
I totally agree with this argument. However, there is also another problem - when people "translate into Armenian" some foreign words in a very non-Armenian way.  A perfect example is the word "inknatir" from the Russian word "samoliot" (airplane.) And this when there is a perfect word for it in Armenian - "otanav/odanav."

Furthermore, there are some pathetic and cheesy words borrowed from other languages which have become inseparable fixtures of Armenian mainstream culture, as tasteless as they are, while one would not use their Armenian equivalents in a similar context.  An example is the word "djan,"  i.e. "enker djan."  As Tomanian mentions in one of his publicistic articles, this word, when translated from Persian, means "hogiaks."  In an everyday context, when you go around and say "enker, hogiaks," you would be just ridiculed or the other person may feel offended.

I think "inknatir" is used to describe the jet(plane). The reason being that there are no visible moving parts (propellers) looking like they are flying on their own.

If this debate is not a testimony begging for "language police" I don't know what is.
People can speak anyway they want and anyway they know, but one does need "language police" who know what it is all about and can separate standard language from slang and sort out that is extraneous and unnecessary.
Yes we do need new dictionaries but I for one don't qualify, even then the academicians must also be viewed with vigilence and suspicion as they also may have their own political, cultural, philosophical and other biases.

#27 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 12:44 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Dec 14 2003, 02:25 PM)
I think "inknatir" is used to describe the jet(plane). The reason being that there are no visible moving parts (propellers) looking like they are flying on their own.

If this debate is not a testimony begging for "language police" I don't know what is.
People can speak anyway they want and anyway they know, but one does need "language police" who know what it is all about and can separate standard language from slang and sort out that is extraneous and unnecessary.
Yes we do need new dictionaries but I for one don't qualify, even then the academicians must also be viewed with vigilence and suspicion as they also may have their own political, cultural, philosophical and other biases.

The word “inkatir” was the standard in [Eastern] Armenian language for decades – way before the development of the airplanes with reactive engine (propellerless planes.)

I am all for “language police.” The first polices should be the Armenian mothers. The need for this kind of policing in Armenia was recognized in early 1970s, I think. At the time there was some “Committee of Armenian Language” under the auspices of the Institute of Language of the Academia of Sciences.
Just look at the way Armenian is spoken around – especially in places like Glendale. It is horrific… “Aghchi, satkats, yes kezi shat karotel em…”

If there was no “policing” at the time, following Kh. Abovian, we would have still used the word “shat” as Armenian word for time – “zhamanak.” I can bring many other examples such as “smetan.”

Certainly some academicians are more academician then others – like in every other platitude of life. In the past, we have had good traditions – from Atjaryan and on. It is hard to believe that we cannot have it further on – it is just a matter of realizing the disaster that Armenian language is facing due to the lack of maintenance of proper standards. The problem is not only with the language but the whole culture altogether.

#28 Arpa

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 01:32 PM

Oh! Duuuh!
I just got it!
I was trying to read as "shat" as in "many".
"shat" as "zham" from the Arabic "sa'at/sahat"...."s-hat".

As to inkanatir;
I had quoted that "inknatir" to mean jet(plane) from memory, and after you indicated that it was used way before the advent of the jet I checked the Eng-Arm dictionary, one of the best I have seen, that by Asmangulian and Hovhannisian, Hayastan Hratarakchutyun, Yerevan, 1991 (even if my copy lacks a whole section pp 641-672, "offhand" to "partiality").
Here is what we see on page 510;
Jet- 1.(hnk.)gisheraqar, sev sath 2. paylun sev guyn
Jet- 1. shith, tsayt (jri, golorshu, gazi) 2. reaktiv sharzhich, reaktiv inknatir 3. reaktiv
Jet- 1. (tekhnik.) Forsunka, botsamugh, pqelq, tsayrapoghak, kazapoghak, kazlamba. 2. tsaytel, shith artsakel.
Jet-black- sathi nman sev.
Jet-fighter- reaktiv kordzanich (inknatir)
Jet plane- Reaktiv inknatir
Jet propelled- reaktiv sharzhichov (inknatiri masin)


BTW, "hnk" above stands for "hankayin/mineral"

#29 Arpa

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 01:36 PM

From that same dictionary;
Helicoter- helikopter, ughghatir.
We also know that some call an airplane- otanav(airship) and others call it savarnak (soarer/flyer).

#30 Shahumyan

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:00 PM

Mesrob Mashtots used other letters to...does this make him unnarmenian?

also see how the first 3 letters are same as other langauges eg ABC, ah beh geh, alef beh peh seh, and so on what is it in russian out of interest

English words are 80% from outside, note how English people dont complain, because at the end of the day the material lives of England is better parrtly due to flexibility of langauge

#31 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:04 PM

QUOTE (Shahumyan @ Dec 14 2003, 04:00 PM)
Mesrob Mashtots used other letters to...does this make him unnarmenian?

Yes…and Elvys is alive…

#32 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:08 PM

As to the symbols of Armenian alphabet being similar to latin alphabet (for example), I think it would be hard to deny. Pretty much every Armenian letter is a transformation of a corresponding latin one, when the latter has similar sound. If the letters of Armenian alphabet were written with matches, for example, it would be a simple exercise to do a couple of simple transformations such as turn it around by 90 degrees adn misplace one match, and you would get the corresponding latin letter.

The moral is... Mashtots was a smoker... and Armenians had invented cigarets, first... smile.gif

#33 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE (MJ @ Dec 14 2003, 04:08 PM)
If the letters of Armenian alphabet were written with matches, for example, it would be a simple exercise to do a couple of simple transformations such as turn it around by 90 degrees and misplace one match, and you would get the corresponding latin letter.

... meant to say rotation by 90 degrees and perhaps axial symmetry, sometimes with a couple of extra such geometric operations.

#34 Sip

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:19 PM

QUOTE (MJ @ Dec 14 2003, 02:11 PM)
... meant to say rotation by 90 degrees and perhaps axial symmetry, sometimes with a couple of extra such geometric operations.

I have a feeling that opens up the door to transforming a lot of things to a lot of things (maybe even Chinese). smile.gif

#35 Arpa

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 03:06 PM

MJ is correct. Partly.
Many of the letters arrived in their present shape mostly by rotating the original 90 degrees.
However the sources , I mean plural are varied, even if heavily from Greek. Mesrop had even considered to go the mother of the Greek alphabet, Phoenician but he found it inadaquate.

This is how Ajarian sorts them;
From the Greek;
Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Ye, Za, E, Tho, Ini, Ken?, Ghat (from Lamda), Men, Nu(?),Vo, Pe, Se, Re, Hyun, Pyur, and Qe.
From Iranian (including Pahlavi and sanskrit), those with question mark may appear again; Zhe, Lyun?, Khe?, Ho, Che, Hi, Sha, Cha? Ja?, Ra,Se?, Ve, Tyun.
From Assyrian; Tza, Khe, Ken, Dza.
And others created originally; Ut, Ghat, Dza, Cha, Tso

As indicated above those with question marks are left hanging between Greek, Assyrian and or original.
It become obvious too that Mesrop would have totally relied on the Greek except that it did not have exact equivalents to some of our sounds.

I may also comment on PreMashtotsian alpahbet(s).
The above and the coming ones are from a book, Hayots Grer@ by Ajarian. My copy was printed in 1984 at the Yerevan University.

#36 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 04:19 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Dec 14 2003, 04:19 PM)
I have a feeling that opens up the door to transforming a lot of things to a lot of things (maybe even Chinese). smile.gif

I understand. But this observation (and I am talking only about the letters as symbols/characters) easily identifies the large number of similarities between the letters of both alphabets... And one does not have to be a sophisticated geometer to notice it nor the transformations are to any degree complicated or many - few simple things transform one to another. With Chinese - that would be an uphill battle, I think. flex.gif

#37 gamavor

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 06:26 PM

While I agree, that to some degree people (esp. native speakers) should be mindful of the purity of the Armenian language I disagree with those who are very "inventive" to add or even come up with new Armenian words, for the sake of the purity. One such example is the word - 'straw'. I don't know the Armenian word for 'straw' - the one used for drinks. So , he suggested - "dz@dzakordzik"!!!

#38 nairi

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 06:58 PM

QUOTE (gamavor @ Dec 15 2003, 01:26 AM)
So , he suggested - "dz@dzakordzik"!!!

smile.gif Nerqashoghik smile.gif

Where would we be without Charents's creative work? smile.gif

As for inqnatir and otanav, why not use both? At the end of the day, they're both tkhats words.

#39 Arpa

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 07:15 PM

QUOTE (nairi @ Dec 15 2003, 12:58 AM)
smile.gif Nerqashoghik smile.gif

Where would we be without Charents's creative work? smile.gif

Why not "khmapogh" smile.gif smile.gif in this context, or even "@mpapogh".
Seriously though I had not even considered the matter, the first thing came to mind was "hart" which on further thought... is hay, not straw. This dictionary says, "tsghnot, tsghot" as in tsa ghat vo tyun, I had never heard it.
Does it have anything to do with "tsndsugh" i.e. watering can which has a hollow neck.
Why not use what Khorenatsi used in his Vahagni Tsnund@;
"@nd eghegan pogh bots elaner".
Yegheg/egheg=reed, also a hollow stick.
As long as we are talking about reed, we already know that "sring" usually made of reed is the precursor of "syringe", the hollow cylinder used to inject medicine and other uses.

#40 MJ

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Dec 14 2003, 09:15 PM)
Why not "khmapogh" smile.gif smile.gif in this context, or even "@mpapogh".

How about @mpugh?

smile.gif




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