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Im Hamar And Indz Hamar ?


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#21 MJ

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 06:44 PM

But who is forcing someone to use something which is out of the mainstream of the Armenian language, when there is a completely acceptable, logical form, which is being used by the mainstream of educated [in Armenian language] people? Why should we create an artificial problem and then struggle with it? One explanation I could perhaps give is that "indz vra" sounds quite "verambardz" (sort of pompous) and that might be the reason some people tend to use it.


As to the date issue, again, I am saying that the message which is supposedly posted by me on November 2nd (according to the current record) and thus sorted in the body of all messages accordingly, has been posted by me several days ago. The date of it has been altered for some reason.

Edited by MJ, 02 November 2003 - 06:54 PM.


#22 nairi

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 07:07 PM

The logical form you refer to may not be so logical at all if we go back far enough. What the mainstream uses is not necessarily the logical form, and may simply be a simplification of the original, logical form. You'll find this in all languages around the world.

Many educated Dutch people, for instance, don't know the difference between "hen" (dative them) and "hun" (genetive their). They mix them up or only use one form for both. However, this doesn't mean that it's "logical". Same with im hamar: why go through the trouble of learning two different forms for different pronouns when you can use one for both?

But to my defence :) I have said this on a few occasions before: in many ways I am against standardization of a language, if only because it dismisses dialects, and thus also kills them. On the other hand, standardization can be handy, if only because it eases communication between speakers of different dialects.

As for your post: I have no idea how that could've happened. I've never seen it happen before. I guess if it happens more frequently, we should tell Garo about it. He's the only one who could potentially fix it.

Edit: But you're right when you say that people who speak the standardized form of a language generally sound pompous. This is a very common remark that many people make concerning standardized forms (or dialects are they are officially called), in the same way that non-standardized dialects are considered uneducated, lower-class forms.

#23 MJ

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 08:12 PM

Lord, have mercy

I dont like the arguments for the sake of the arguments themselves. Therefore this would be my last injection on this topic.

What I have argued is that the logical form of the expression is im hamr and im vra. And it is not simplification it is consistent with the core and, if you wish, the mainstream of the Armenian language.

One advantage that [Eastern] Armenian language has over the other languages that I know (English, for example) it is the fact of having very structured and logical grammar. I dont know German, but I hear it has a similar quality. In any case, this argument [on German language] tangential for the point I am trying to deliver.

I also dont know what standardization means. As far as the dialects are concerned, everyone is free to use the dialect of his/her choice (though I think dialects are expressions of underdeveloped forms of communication.) But we are not discussing dialects here, but literary Armenian.

And as far as the pompousness of the expression is concerned, you have turned my comment upside-down. What I have said was indz hamar is the pompous way of expressing the corresponding phrase not the other way around. Most likely it has been introduced by Terian, Charents, et al, in a poetic context. This is fine in poetry, where people are trying to convey a special, at times exaggerated, sentiment. I agree that one should not go through the trouble of learning two different forms, when one of them is obviously not typical for the given language.

As for as the logic of the language is concerned, at least in the case of the structure of the Armenian language, it is manifested [partially and relevant to this discussion] through the rules of holovumner, which unequivocally speak in favor of im hamar.

#24 nairi

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 08:53 PM

What I have argued is that the logical form of the expression is im hamr and im vra.

And what I have argued is that it isn't necessarily. I have said from the very beginning that there is no point in pondering over why one form is favored over the other in Standard Eastern Armenian since neither of us know for sure what stimulated linguists to choose one form over the other.

All languages have a very structured and logical form. Armenian is nowhere near being alone in this.

The result of standardization is what you find in grammar books and lexicons. It is what you learn at school, read in newspapers and consider the "correct" form of a language. Thus "indz hamar" is the standardized form in Eastern Armenian. Why? I don't know, and clearly, neither do you.

As for dialect: it is a very vague term that most linguists are still arguing over. But to keep things simplified, there are regional dialects and there are social dialects. The standardized form of a language is also considered a dialect. Thus Standard Eastern Armenian is a dialect of Armenian. And this latter is the Armenian that is taught at school, used in formal writing and speech, and what you call "literary Armenian".

#25 nairi

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 06:11 AM

One last post here. It's funny that you have been trying to prove that "im vra" is the logical form when it is included in Standard Eastern Armenian:

Vra: 1st and 2nd person genetive or dative; 3rd person genetive


So Sip, both "im vra" and "indz vra" are recorded in Standard Eastern Armenian (SEA), and are thus considered correct. There may be a slight nuance in meaning however, which unfortunately I'm not aware of. But as this SEA list suggests, you can only use "indz hamar".

Here's a few more preps and postps from that list:

aranc: 1st and 2nd person dative; 3rd person genetive
hamadzayn: 1st and 2nd person dative; 3rd person genetive
hamar: 1st and 2nd person dative; 3rd person genetive
hamemat: 1st and 2nd person dative; 3rd person genetive
pes: 1st and 2nd person dative; 3rd person genetive

arjev: 1st and 2nd person genetive; 3rd person genetive
dimac: 1st and 2nd person genetive; 3rd person genetive
vrayic/vrayov: 1st and 2nd person genetive; 3rd person genetive
tak: 1st and 2nd person genetive; 3rd person genetive

durs: 1st and 2nd person ablative; 3rd person ablative
heto: 1st and 2nd person ablative; 3rd person ablative
yetev: 1st and 2nd person genetive or ablative; 3rd person genetive or ablative

Hakarak :): 1st and 2nd person dative; 3rd person dative

#26 SAS

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 10:30 AM

Քանի որ համար, հետ, մոտ... կապեր են, ապա հաճախ կարելի է նրանց սղել՝ թողնելով անփոփոխ նախադասության հիմնական միտքը:Օրինակ՝

Ինձ համար էլ ջուր բեր= Ինձ էլ ջուր բեր(այս երկու նախադասություններն էլ արտահայտում են ՆՈՒՅՆ միտքը):

Իսկ՝

Իմ համար էլ ջուր բեր = Իմ էլ ջուր բեր - հիմարություն է

Այստեղ հոլովվեց Տերյանի անունը: Նա մենակ մի տեղ է օգտագործել իմ մոտ-ը( իմ կարծիքով դա վրիպակ է Տերյանի կողմից, որ հետագայում թողել են անփոփոխ):

Երբ կհոգնես, կգազազես աշխարհից
Դարձիր իմ մոտ, վերադարձիր դու կրկին...

Բայց բազմաթիվ անգամ նա օգտագործում է ճիշտ ձևը:Ահա մի քանի օրինակ՝

Որպես լեռն է մեր պայծառ տեսել հազար ձյուն
Այնպես նոր չեն մեզ համար դավ ու դառնություն:

Ես էլ անգետ եմ- մոլոր քեզ պես
Մոլոր ու որբ եմ չարիքի դեմ,
Բայց միշտ ձեզ հետ եմ, եղբայր եմ ձեզ
Ձեզ պես անզոր եմ, ձեզ պես անզեն:

Փորձենք հիմա սխալ գրել

Ես էլ անգետ եմ- մոլոր քո պես
Մոլոր ու որբ եմ չարիքի դեմ,
Բայց միշտ ձեր հետ եմ, եղբայր եմ ձեզ
Ձեր պես անզոր եմ, ձեր պես անզեն:

Մի՞թե սա հայերեն է: B)

#27 SAS

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 10:45 AM

Sas, so "indz mod pogh chka" is better than "im mod pogh chka"?

How about

"indz vra jur tapets" te "im vra jur tapets"?

In both those cases I am inclined to say "im" but seems like indz is the correct one?

Սիփան,

ԻՆՁ մոտ փող չկա, բայց հուսով եմ, որ դա ՄԵԶ համար ոչ մի նշանակություն չունի՝ մարդս մարդ լինի, :P

բայց

Իմ մոր մոտ փող չկա = Մորս մոտ փող չկա

Ի՞նչ անեմ, հայերեն լեզուն էլ ունի իր տարօրինակությունները: :P

#28 Arpa

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 11:07 AM

?????,

??? ??? ??? ???, ???? ?????? ??, ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????????????? ?????? ????? ???? ????, :P

????

?? ??? ??? ??? ??? = ???? ??? ??? ???

???? ????, ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????????????????????: :P

Es hayeren che.
Trkahayeren, gutse nuynisk rusahayeren. Ruseren khosel karogh chem.
I remember when when we would translate from the so called Armenian sentences like "Et Sipanin motn e" it would turn out as "It is near Sipan" and our teachers of English would scold and correct us that the proper English would be "Sipan has it", not "it is near sipan".
I know what Turkish idiom that comes from but I will spare us.
The correct Armenian would be" Sipan@ pogh chuni", not "Sipanin mot pogh chka". Let's take a closer look; Are we saying "there is no money near Sipan"? What does it really mean? How does that mean whether Sipan has money or not? Does it mean Sipan is standing near a dramatun full of money?
:) :)

PS. This is a second plea. I finally installed Unicode whereby I can read it but the program says nothing about how to write as well.

Sorry, lost the font. I don't know why my computer does this... Anyway, I was just fixing a double quote. This quote is SAS's reply to Sipan -- Nairi

#29 nairi

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 11:29 AM

The correct Armenian would be" Sipan@ pogh chuni", not "Sipanin mot pogh chka". Let's take a closer look; Are we saying "there is no money near Sipan"? What does it really mean? How does that mean whether Sipan has money or not? Does it mean Sipan is standing near a dramatun full of money?
:) :)

That's funny, because that's the first thing that crossed my mind as well, simply "pogh chunem". But I guess theoretically you could say "mots pogh chunem" or "indz mot pogh chunem" as well.

Sip is Parska-Hay, raised in Germany and America among way too many different speakers of Armenian :) No wonder he mixes up all these languages and varieties :)

It reminds me of my cousins in LA who say stuff like "kez k@kanchem" instead of "k@zangem" for "I'll phone (call!) you".

I'll be back at the library in the next few days and will look at preps and postps again. I didn't have much time yesterday. What SAS says makes sense (about omitting the prep or postp), but not always. I want to try to find a more reliable source. In any case, as I said earlier, there MUST be a logical root somewhere. We just need to find it... Poets are great, but never reliable.

Anyway, the reason why it's "im mor hamar" and not "indz mor hamar" is because "im mor" (my mother) is 3rd person, and as the list suggests, 3rd person is genetive in this case. Same applies to "mors" (my mother), again 3rd person.

#30 Arpa

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 11:42 AM

The correct Armenian would be" Sipan@ pogh chuni", not "Sipanin mot pogh chka". :) :)

It reminds me of my cousins in LA who say stuff like "kez k@kanchem" instead of "k@zangem" for "I'll phone (call!) you".

Once again a case of translation from other languages.
Just like the one above from Turkish, "k@kanchem" is from American English of "I'll call (kanchel) you", and "zangel" is from British English from "I'll ring you(up)". Would the proper Armenian be "piti herakhosem" or "piti telefonem"?

#31 nairi

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 11:50 AM

Actually, zangel is the correct form.

From Zhamanakakic Hayoc Lezvi Bacarakan Bararan:

Zangel: 1. Herakhosov zangaharel, zang tal. 2. Hnchel, zangi dzayn hanel. 3. Herakhosov khosel.

#32 MJ

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 12:32 PM

ը ѳ ٳ۳, û ݳ dz ٳ:

Ինձ էլ ջուր բեր ѳ hۻ Ө : ϳ ϳ ٳ ѻ, ﳹ hۻ ɻ Ө۳ ݻ ѳݻ ٳݳ ϳ ٳٵ` ٻݳ ѳϳݳ: Ի համար էլ ջուր բեր ѳ۳ ٻ, ۳ 񳕳, ѳٳ ѳٳŻ Ӕ : ɳݻ, ϳ, ϳ 񳕳ݻ, ۹ համար էլ ջուր բեր ѳ ѳۻ ѳٳ Ө ` ѳٳ էլ ջուր բեր- : û ѳϳ , ݳ ٳ ݳ :

, ٳ 񳕳ݻ, ѳٳ ѳ ݻϳ۳ Ӕ ݳ:


Երբ կհոգնես, կգազազես աշխարհից, արձիր իմ մոտ, վերադարձիր դու ... ݹٻ ۳ hۻ ɻ dzϳ ٳ ϳ : ܳ ϳ ѳ ϳ ߳ ݳݻ ѳݹ ѳ ϳ ݻ` ݳͳϳ ٵ ѳ ݻ:

ϳϳ, ݻ۳ ۳ ϳ hۻ ɻ ѳ񳽳 Ө ` û ݳͳϳ ׳۳ ۳ݳϳ-ϳ ݹݻ ɳϳ ճϳ .

Ես էլ անգետ եմ- մոլոր քո պես
Մոլոր ու որբ եմ չարիքի դեմ,
Բայց միշտ ձեր հետ եմ, եղբայր եմ ձեզ
Ձեր պես անզոր եմ, ձեր պես անզեն:



P.S. I just don't get why Armenan "g" doesn't come across sometimes.

Edited by MJ, 03 November 2003 - 04:11 PM.


#33 nairi

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:09 PM

Lol. On the one hand we have grammar books telling us one thing, and on the other we have babbling laymen expounding their theories without any knowledge or reliable sources.

Please, before we start confusing ourselves and poor Sipan even more over this issue, I suggest we ALL go out and find reliable sources showing exactly what stimulated linguists to make the list of preps and postps for SEA the way they did.

Until then, there is simply NO POINT in contradicting (or for that matter, believing) what the grammar books say.

#34 MJ

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:22 PM

The little brat has gone out of her box, again..

#35 MJ

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:30 PM

... and one more counterexample:

If one is to support the expression "indz hamar djour ber," with the same logic one has to support also the "indz hamar djour tur" expression. Try to say the latter and see if your tongue would not break over it.

Edited by MJ, 03 November 2003 - 01:46 PM.


#36 Arpa

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:34 PM

ը ѳ ٳ۳, û ݳ dz ٳ:

Ինձ էլ ջուր բեր ѳ гۻ Ө : ϳ ϳ ٳ ѻ, ﳹ гۻ ɻ Ө۳ ݻ ѳݻ ٳݳ ϳ ٳٵ` ٻݳ  ѳϳݳ: Ի համար էլ ջուր բեր ѳ۳ ٻ, ۳ 񳕳, ѳٳ ѳٳŻ Ӕ : ɳݻ ϳ, ϳ 񳕳ݻ, ۹ համար էլ ջուր բեր ѳ гۻ ѳٳ Ө ` ѳٳ էլ ջուր բեր- : û ѳϳ , ݳ ٳ ݳ :   

, ٳ 񳕳ݻ,  ѳٳ ѳ ݻϳ۳ Ӕ ݳ:

Երբ կհոգնես, կգազազես աշխարհից, արձիր իմ մոտ, վերադարձիր դու կրկին... ݹٻ ۳ гۻ ɻ dzϳ ٳ ϳ :  ܳ ϳ ѳ ϳ ߳ ݳݻ   ѳݹ ѳ ϳ ݻ` ݳͳϳ ٵ
ѳ ݻ:

ϳϳ, ݻ۳ ۳ ϳ гۻ ɻ ѳ񳽳  Ө ` û ݳͳϳ ׳۳ ۳ݳϳ-ϳ ݹݻ ɳϳ ճϳ .


Ես էլ անգետ եմ- մոլոր քո պես
Մոլոր ու որբ եմ չարիքի դեմ,
Բայց միշտ ձեր հետ եմ, եղբայր եմ ձեզ
Ձեր պես անզոր եմ, ձեր պես անզեն:[/font]

P.S. I just don't get why Armenan "g" doesn't come across sometimes.



Corrected AM FONT.
Martin.
the correct way of NLS is
Open with- close with-

Mind the upper and lower case and the correct brackets, and no space after the opening and before the closing despiet the fact my model does show spaceas. Once again, mind the the upper and lower cases.

#37 MJ

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:42 PM

Sorry, Arpa. I don't quite follow your recommendations.

Besides, in my quotation referenced by you in the beginning of your last message, the Armenian text has been messed up even more. "Ev" has been replaced by "-" and "g" has been replaced by "mn."

#38 Arpa

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:58 PM

ը ѳ ٳ۳, û ݳ dz ٳ:
========

ճϳ
Ես էլ անգետ եմ- մոլոր քո պես
Մոլոր ու որբ եմ չարիքի դեմ,
Բայց միշտ ձեր հետ եմ, եղբայր եմ ձեզ
Ձեր պես անզոր եմ, ձեր պես անզեն:


P.S. I just don't get why Armenan "g" doesn't come across sometimes.

Here is what you had done.
I wonder if you can see it in quote.
YOu oepened it with
"" and closed it with ""
The way mine works as recommeneded by Garo is

.........

Try again and open and close you Arm fonts exactly as shown above. Note also that the brackets are the square kind, not the rounded edges, i.e lower case without pressing the caps lock or shift.

Once again, the upper/capital and lower/regular cases must be strictly adhered.
As to the YEV and G your keyboeard may be corrupted. Right click at the icon, check "phonetic" and click see where those letters are. Gim should be where G is and Yev sgould be where the dash is to the right of zero.
BTW I don't use the yev key, I type it out.
I just checked the preview, you can.t see ehat was done see if it will show in the transmission.

#39 MJ

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for the effort, Arpa. But I cannot see what was done. Additionally, the problem with "g" still persists.

Maybe I just need to uninstall everything and reinstall "the right thing the right way?" But, then, I would need a complete set of recommendations.

#40 Arpa

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 02:18 PM

I'll try this again, this time without the brackets as the brackets seem to cover the text.
This is what you had done.
Font=Arial Armenian and closed it with /font
The correct way is FONT=Arial AM ...../FONT Note the upper and lower cases. Of course not to forget the braclkets.
Try it. As to the yev and G there was a time when one could edit the keyboard when I replaced my Re and RA. That option may have been removed.
Can you see the difference now?




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