191 replies to this topic

[Shahan Araradian]

http://www.jbeed.com

Offers a joke a day in Armenian!

Also, for those of you who'd like to know how to configure your Windows XP operating system with Armenian Unicode, check out this great screen-recording they've made on the site: http://www.jbeed.com/unicode.html

[Shahan Araradian]

http://www.nayiri.com/

Armenian language dictionary with embedded spell-checker!... For all you Western Armenians out there who have a hard time spelling since you pronounce Թ and Դ the same, not to mention Չ and Ջ, and Բ and Փ... (the site uses traditional Armenian orthography)

They also offer a plug-in for Internet Explorer that allows you to make dictionary lookups while browsing any Armenian web page: http://nayiri.com/download

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 14 July 2007 - 11:09 PM.

[Zartonk]

Nice links.

I have to admit I read j-bead.

[nairi]

http://www.nayiri.com/

Armenian language dictionary with embedded spell-checker!... For all you Western Armenians out there who have a hard time spelling since you pronounce Թ and Դ the same, not to mention Չ and Ջ, and Բ and Փ... (the site uses traditional Armenian orthography)

They also offer a plug-in for Internet Explorer that allows you to make dictionary lookups while browsing any Armenian web page: http://nayiri.com/download

Too bad it's only in Western Armenian. We desparately need an online dictionary that features both varieties of Armenian, so that we can learn from each other.

[Shahan Araradian]

Too bad it's only in Western Armenian. We desparately need an online dictionary that features both varieties of Armenian, so that we can learn from each other.

Nayiri,

The dictionary is for both western and eastern Armenian (however it currently [I think] only does Western Armenian noun declension and verb conjugation). Note that Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian share the same vocabulary; they differ only in morphology and phonology (and in the case of Eastern Armenian from Soviet Armenia, the orthography is different too). The dictionary covers only TRADITIONAL orthography.

The spell-checking works for both Eastern and Western Armenian, but my point was that spell-checking usually is more useful for Western Armenians b/c Eastern Armenians pronounce each letter distinctly (except for some cases).

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 15 July 2007 - 05:34 AM.

[Arpa]

Nice links.

I have to admit I read j-bead.

YEAY!!!
HIP HIP HOORAY,
RAH RAH RAH to Shahan for having discovered this site.
Doe this mean, from now on you will write ՋՈՒՐ and transliterate as JOUR and not ՉՈՒՐ/CHOUR?
Whoever the hell tells these people to compose websites about Armenian language? Are they Afghanis or Zimbabweians?
Must the Afghanis or the Zimbabweans (please note the A to Z) dictate and teach us our own language?
Note Zartonk’s comment about “j-beed”.
Is it not obvious that the said site was designed by francophone in whose ramified phonetics te letter J sounds like the Armenian letter Ժas in “bon jour”?
Yes, we know that there is not letter in the Latin to sound like the Armenian Ժ, except as in zh like in “treasure/trezhur”.
Dear Shahan. Your argument is DOA, dead on arrival even before it hits the air. Please get off your high horse and admit that no “spellcheck” (is that an Armenian word? How about ՈՒՂՂաԳՐԱԳՐԱՆ ՃՇԴՈՒՄ) will save you as long as you write հարաչ/harach instead of յառաջ/haraj, չուրinstead of ջուր.
Please have an audiological checkout? Maybe they can help you readjust your ears from Turk-Istanbul-Armenian, FrenchArmenian, AmericanArmenian, Syrian-Lebanese Armenian to real Armenian.
Dear Shahan. Nothing will save you. Not even a million "spellchecks" until you learn real Armenian, not FrenSH Armenyan, not Peyrut Armenian, not even Klentail Hayren.
Please Shahan, do tell us how your nickname is native Armenian? Is it "shah", or even that "biblical/schmiblical Ararat" that we know as"Masis"?

Edited by Arpa, 15 July 2007 - 08:41 AM.

[Shahan Araradian]

YEAY!!!
HIP HIP HOORAY,
RAH RAH RAH to Shahan for having discovered this site.
Doe this mean, from now on you will write ՋՈՒՐ and transliterate as JOUR and not ՉՈՒՐ/CHOUR?

No, I will pronounce /tʃʰuɾ/ (CHOUR) for ջուր most likely, but will use a spell-checker to get it right (and not spell չուր).

Whoever the hell tells these people to compose websites about Armenian language? Are they Afghanis or Zimbabweians?
Must the Afghanis or the Zimbabweans (please note the A to Z) dictate and teach us our own language?
Note Zartonk’s comment about “j-beed”.

I don't know if you are aware, but you cannot have hostnames in Armenian (that is, in Unicode); so the guy who made www.jbeed.com couldn't have used www.ժպիտ.com "hostname labels can only be made up of the ASCII letters 'a' through 'z' (case-insensitive), the digits '0' through '9', and the hyphen" http://en.wikipedia....alid_host_names

Is it not obvious that the said site was designed by francophone in whose ramified phonetics te letter J sounds like the Armenian letter Ժas in “bon jour”?
Yes, we know that there is not letter in the Latin to sound like the Armenian Ժ, except as in zh like in “treasure/trezhur”.

You answered your own question. Each language (e.g. English vs French) pronounces a given letter differently depending on its context. I most likely would have named it www.jbeed.com myself, too. Even in English "J" is used as a /ʒ/ (IPA; ժ in Armenian) as in "Jacques." The ONLY way to have disambiguity in pronunciations is to use the International Phonetic Alphabet, and the characters in the IPA aren't part of the ASCII subset that I described above for acceptable hostnames.

EDIT: I just found out about Internationalized domain names So http://www.ժպիտ.com is possible, after all!

Dear Shahan. Your argument is DOA, dead on arrival even before it hits the air. Please get off your high horse and admit that no “spellcheck” (is that an Armenian word? How about ՈՒՂՂաԳՐԱԳՐԱՆ ՃՇԴՈՒՄ) will save you as long as you write հարաչ/harach instead of յառաջ/haraj, չուրinstead of ջուր.
Please have an audiological checkout? Maybe they can help you readjust your ears from Turk-Istanbul-Armenian, FrenchArmenian, AmericanArmenian, Syrian-Lebanese Armenian to real Armenian.

I don't know what century you are living in, but I'm in the 21st. And in the 21st, the Firefox WWW browser has 52 dictionary files for nearly EVERY spoken human language (except Armenian, of course) for its built-in spell-checking system. (Take a look here Firefox Add-ons: Dictionaries) That is, ALL of those languages listed require some sort of spell-checker because speakers have a hard time spelling for one reason or another. (German even has 4 versions! Greek has 2, English has 4.) And Armenian needs 2!! (1 for Reformed Orthography, and one for Traditional Orthography!)

Why can English writers have a spell-checker and not Armenian writers? Why? Because the Armenians need to BUILD an Armenian spell-checker; no one will do it for Armenians, because the thriving of the Armenian language is in the interest of no other group besides the Armenians themselves.

If Armenian is to survive the 21st century as a language, then it needs a spell-checker!!
No one in their right-mind is going to lookup words manually in a dictionary any more!!! Not in the 21st century!

Indeed, if someone DOESN'T develop an Armenian dictionary for Firefox's spell-checking system SOON, then that's a sign that Armenian is dying as a spoken language in the world today.... And not only for Firefox, we need an Armenian spell-checker for OpenOffice, too. This is one of the legacies that MY generation will leave to future generations of Armenians. (A generation before gave us the schools and organizations of the Armenian diaspora; and 2 generations before gave us Armenia...)

Dear Shahan. Nothing will save you. Not even a million "spellchecks" until you learn real Armenian, not FrenSH Armenyan, not Peyrut Armenian, not even Klentail Hayren.

It's not a matter of saving me. It's a matter of feeding LIFE to the Armenian language. All technology available must be at the fingertips of people trying to write in Armenian, as it is for all other spoken languages!

Please Shahan, do tell us how your nickname is native Armenian? Is it "shah", or even that "biblical/schmiblical Ararat" that we know as"Masis"?

Not only are many Armenian PROPER names borrowed from other cultures and civilizations, but also Armenian COMMON names. I'm not going to go into the details, but any fruit can pick up a book on linguistics, turn to the chapter on the Armenian language and read how Armenian has borrowed from Persian, Latin, Greek, "Indo-European", etc.

But now all of these words -- proper AND common -- are considered Armenian. So Շահան IS an Armenian name today.

Regards.

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 15 July 2007 - 12:08 PM.

[vartahoor]

Dear Shahan. Your argument is DOA, dead on arrival even before it hits the air. Please get off your high horse and admit that no “spellcheck” (is that an Armenian word? How about ՈՒՂՂաԳՐԱԳՐԱՆ ՃՇԴՈՒՄ) will save you as long as you write հարաչ/harach instead of յառաջ/haraj, չուրinstead of ջուր.
Please have an audiological checkout? Maybe they can help you readjust your ears from Turk-Istanbul-Armenian, FrenchArmenian, AmericanArmenian, Syrian-Lebanese Armenian to real Armenian.
Dear Shahan. Nothing will save you. Not even a million "spellchecks" until you learn real Armenian, not FrenSH Armenyan, not Peyrut Armenian, not even Klentail Hayren.
Please Shahan, do tell us how your nickname is native Armenian? Is it "shah", or even that "biblical/schmiblical Ararat" that we know as"Masis"?

Arpa,
You have made excellent points. I am surprised that some people still insist that chur is the right one and not jur, etc. I am of the belief that western armenian schools are to be blamed failing to teach the WA students how to read and pronounce the eastern armenian poetries, stories, etc, in their original forms, qv, Kikosi Mah@. Even today those teachers fail their students in this respectt.
Back to the main item "nairi dictiona and spellcheck", the dictionary should give you the option of different spellins, e.g., «սվին, սւին, սուին», whereas in this instance if you don't type «սուին» you will not be able to find the word. This is a major defect. I have personal knowledge that a diction ary/spell check all encompassing software will be on the market in few years. Until then we have to be instrumental in teachin the correct aremenian to our people.
vartahoor

[Arpa]

It's not a matter of saving me. It's a matter of feeding LIFE to the Armenian language. All technology available must be at the fingertips of people trying to write in Armenian, as it is for all other spoken languages!.

Regards.

Yes, please, by all means, do design an Armenian spellchekcker, but only after you decide which variant to use. Eastern? Western? Masropian or Abeghian? Istanbul, Beirut or Glendale? Make sure that it does not change your “չուր/chour” (wet, watery) to “չոր/chor” (dry).
Those damn spellcheck! I have so much trouble with them. If I don’t proof read my writings surely some ridiculous changes will slip in.
I just noticed that I had not caught it when the system had changed my “osmanized” above to “ramified”.
In other words, let me repeat. Even a million spell checkers will be useless, not to mention destructive unless one knows what one is writing. Spell checks are useful when one types “yousfool” instead of “useful”. Other than that they are rather a nuisance. Just to illustrate. When I typed “yousfool”above my idiotic spellcheck insisted that I should write “you fool”, or “too full”. That much for spell checks.
You mean to tell me when we install an Armenian spellchecker I won’t be able to type “araberen” and change it to “arameren” since “arab” is not an Armenian word?
If I may ask.
How many spell checkers are planning to dsign? 9 million? Just like we have 9 million useless fonts for a people of 8 million? Half of which cannot even write their own names in Armenian.

Edited by Arpa, 15 July 2007 - 03:16 PM.

[Shahan Araradian]

How many spell checkers are planning to dsign? 9 million? Just like we have 9 million useless fonts for a people of 8 million? Half of which cannot even write their own names in Armenian.

As I mentioned above, there will be 2 spell checkers:
1) Traditional Armenian Orthography
+ This can cover BOTH western Armenian and Eastern Armenian

2) Reformed Armenian Orthography
+ Only Eastern Armenian

---------------------

I only plan on building one for Traditional Armenian Orthography, as I see it the soviet orthography as ludicrous.

[Arpa]

As I mentioned above, there will be 2 spell checkers:
1) Traditional Armenian Orthography
+ This can cover BOTH western Armenian and Eastern Armenian

2) Reformed Armenian Orthography
+ Only Eastern Armenian

---------------------

I only plan on building one for Traditional Armenian Orthography, as I see it the soviet orthography as ludicrous.

So will it change my մէկ to մեկ or մեկ to մէկ, my ԱրմենԵան to ԱրմենՅան?

[Shahan Araradian]

Arpa,
You have made excellent points. I am surprised that some people still insist that chur is the right one and not jur, etc.

There is NO "right" or "wrong".

There are THREE different Armenian language phonologies recognized today:
1) Classical Armenian phonology
2) Eastern Armenian phonology
3) Western Armenian phonology

Each of the above are DIFFERENT than the other.

Let me make this perfectly clear once again: Eastern Armenian phonology DOES NOT EQUAL Classical Armenian phonology as I have written extensively in previous threads.

I am of the belief that western armenian schools are to be blamed failing to teach the WA students how to read and pronounce the eastern armenian poetries, stories, etc, in their original forms, qv, Kikosi Mah@. Even today those teachers fail their students in this respectt.

I am perfectly proud of our Western Armenian schools and teachers in the Diaspora! Կեցցէ՛ն եւ ապրի՛ն բոլորն ալ:

They teach Western Armenian phonology perfectly well, and that is the language they SHOULD be teaching to Western Armenians. Now, perhaps in an advanced course, they can be taught Classical Armenian phonology and Eastern Armenian phonology, perhaps around the 8th grade.

Back to the main item "nairi dictiona and spellcheck", the dictionary should give you the option of different spellins, e.g., «սվին, սւին, սուին», whereas in this instance if you don't type «սուին» you will not be able to find the word. This is a major defect. I have personal knowledge that a diction ary/spell check all encompassing software will be on the market in few years. Until then we have to be instrumental in teachin the correct aremenian to our people.
vartahoor

That's not a terribly large "defect" as you claim and is a relatively EASY fix, I am sure...

In a "few years"? I can probably make a FREE and OPEN SOURCE one in less than 2 months!

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 15 July 2007 - 03:38 PM.

[Shahan Araradian]

So will it change my մէկ to մեկ or մեկ to մէկ, my ԱրմենԵան to ԱրմենՅան?

Absolutely. Go to nayiri.com, type in մեկ and see what happens:

http://www.nayiri.co...ch?query=Õ´Õ¥Õ¯

[nairi]

Note that Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian share the same vocabulary;

This is not true. Not entirely anyway. We have our small differences too, like petrol and oil. Or words that are much more common in one dialect than in another. We need a decent, professional dictionary for this, with pronunciation key and extended grammatical information.

As long as we are speaking, reading, and writing in different dialects and with different spelling, we should create a program that unites the two under one roof, instead of isolating one and highlighting another, which is what "Nayiri" dictionary is doing. Nayiri works for Western Armenians and Armenians who spell traditionally. It doesn't work for the rest of us.

[Sip]

On a related note, we had a pretty good laugh recently at my friend's expense when he expressed his desire to drink "God". He happens to be western Armenian. Apparently, he drinks God on most days.

[Arpa]

Absolutely. Go to nayiri.com, type in մեկ and see what happens:

http://www.nayiri.co...ch?query=Õ´Õ¥Õ¯

And you go to Nayiri and type ararad/ԱՐԱՐԱԴ and see what happens

[Shahan Araradian]

And you go to Nayiri and type ararad/ԱՐԱՐԱԴ and see what happens

It's a dictionary, not encyclopedia Արարատ is a proper name, you expect it in the dictionary?

[Shahan Araradian]

On a related note, we had a pretty good laugh recently at my friend's expense when he expressed his desire to drink "God". He happens to be western Armenian. Apparently, he drinks God on most days.

I don't get it

[Shahan Araradian]

This is not true. Not entirely anyway. We have our small differences too, like petrol and oil. Or words that are much more common in one dialect than in another. We need a decent, professional dictionary for this, with pronunciation key and extended grammatical information.

All Armenian vocabulary is the same between Eastern and Western Armenian. Usage is another issue, and that's not dealt by a dictionary.

In the Republic of Armenia, some Russian words are being used as Armenian like "կորուփցիա" etc, when there are pure Armenian words for them. These type of words don't qualify to being in an Armenian dictionary...

As long as we are speaking, reading, and writing in different dialects and with different spelling, we should create a program that unites the two under one roof, instead of isolating one and highlighting another, which is what "Nayiri" dictionary is doing. Nayiri works for Western Armenians and Armenians who spell traditionally. It doesn't work for the rest of us.

As I've indicated before, there would be two DIFFERENT plug-ins for Firefox or OpenOffice: one for Traditional Armenian Orthography, and one for Reformed Armenian Orthography (the latter would be used by Armenians from Armenia, and everywhere else including Eastern Armenians in Iran would use TAO).

[Arpa]

It's a dictionary, not encyclopedia Արարատ is a proper name, you expect it in the dictionary?

Then how about you type ՏԱՇՆԱԳ, transliterated from "tashnag" and tell us about it.