Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Some Turkic elements in Armenian, Greek and Latin languages


  • Please log in to reply
216 replies to this topic

#21 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 06:51 AM

Dear Nairi,

Don’t you think that “Turks of today are not only conducting physical genocide, but also, political, academic, journalistic and commercial genocide” is a bit stronger statement and dilutes the very idea and concept of Genocide?

…and from a different perspective, if the Genocide Recognition is becoming a political, academic, journalistic and commercial endeavor from one side, it is reasonable to expect or to tolerate, to the least, that its denial also may become such exercise?

However, I think if we are to judge about the evolution of the Turkish governmental and public sentimate in the context of the Armenian Genocide, in the large realm of things, it has considerably moved towards the recognition rather than the denial.

#22 Rubo

Rubo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Art & Armenian issues

Posted 03 August 2002 - 08:19 AM

to mj

and from a different perspective, if the Genocide Recognition is becoming a political, academic, journalistic and commercial endeavor from one side, it is reasonable to expect or to tolerate, to the least, that its denial also may become such exercise?

Argishti>Defeatist ideology that which Turkish deniers use often: Could you be bring examples of commercial endeavors?

However, I think if we are to judge about the evolution of the Turkish governmental and public sentimate in the context of the Armenian Genocide, in the large realm of things, it has considerably moved towards the recognition rather than the denial.

Argishti>Last eighty years of Turkish benignant denial policy resulted few Turkish official’s careful utterances and public minor admissions mostly on academic circles and hardly constitute shift in public opinion. You mean if we wait another two hundred years we will succeed transforming the Turkish society? I would not hold my breath as long as your types equate Armenian recognition efforts on the same par level as Genocide denial!

#23 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 08:24 AM

Plese send me your account number so that I make the tarnsfer...

Maybe, then, you will fill happier with yourself and get oof of my back...

#24 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 August 2002 - 09:22 AM

Dear MJ, that's not very nice. First of all I agree with Rubo's stance that you cannot compare the rate of recognition to that of denial. As far as I'm concerned Turks have devised better and more powerful skills to deny the Armenian genocide than they have come closer to recognizing their mistakes over the last 8 decades. Instead of, for instance building a museum to prove that the Genocide happened, they are building one to prove that it didn't. If you call that moving forward toward recognition, then I might as well change my name. Once again, this holds for you too, if you lived among young Turks today, you'd be blowing a different tune, simply because recognition of the Genocide is something that will NEVER take place according to them. I've heard them say it on numerous occasions with my own ears and trust me I'm not talking about one or two Turks.

However that was not my initial point. What I meant by "plead for forgiveness" instead of "compensation" was that I personally don't care about the material damage. I care about the psychological damage and therefore I would prefer moral compensation above material compensation, something that I believe we also deserve. I merely found it sad that Ali used material compensation as an example instead of moral.

#25 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 09:49 AM

Dear Nairi,

I am not necessarily a nice guy…

I kind of hate repeating myself in this forum – I have done it many times.

However if “Turks have devised better and more powerful skills to deny the Armenian genocide,” this may indicate that Armenians have ascribed to “worse and less powerful devices” to understand what is it that they want from that recognition, among other things. Additionally, from what I understand, the Government of Armenia doesn’t share your opinions about the recognition or non recognition of the Genocide by the Turks and the progress made along those lines.

Your argument about building a museum goes directly to the heart of my argument. Building such museums by any one disgusts me, and as far as I understand, I am not alone with such sentiment. As to leaving with or around the Turks, guess what, there is a Turkish couple on the floor where I live, and every time we meet in the elevator, we cordially greet each other without discussing the issues of the Genocide. More importantly, I met a group of Turks early this summer, who are quite active in their communities and do not fit into the profile you described above.

Another serious objection that I have to your arguments is about the psychological damage you alluded above. It is something that I have spoken about a lot – but I have used harsher words – schizophrenia. If the Turks are who are the ones who have caused the alleged schizophrenia, the expectation of the healing of it by the perpetrators, especially that they are such “universal monsters,” is indicative of more than schizophrenia. Whatever “psychological damages” are present in our minds, they reside in our own minds, and it is up to us, or at least up to those who care for us deeply, to treat them. Somebody else’s recognition or the sympathy should not be the “healing devices,” but one has to rather himself/herself through his/her own devices from the “black hole” of perpetual victimization.

More bluntly put, either lick your wounds and heal yourself, or find a secluded cemetery to die in, without expectations of sympathy. This was not a personal suggestion, btw.

#26 Rubo

Rubo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Art & Armenian issues

Posted 03 August 2002 - 10:38 AM

Building such museums by any one disgusts me,
quote:

Does this mean the Holocaust museum also disgusts you? According to your statement it does. (If in doubt read your statement again) Which logically proceeds that you are a anti-Semite. Your cheap characterizations become reflection of the author.

#27 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 August 2002 - 02:10 PM

Dear MJ,

Please don't get me wrong. I don't entirely disagree with you, but there are a few points I'd like to address.

1. Your experience with Turks: I live in a country with 385,000 conservative, if not extremist, Turks. Turks have five times as many organizations and institutions in Holland than Armenians have in America. If you meet a Turk here and you tell them you're an Armenian you have to be lucky that a) he/she knows nothing about Armenians, b) he/she is moderate towards Armenians. I repeat, "you have to be lucky".

2. I never claimed or said that ALL Turks are alike. There's a number of Turks I know that have (publicly) apologized and repented for their government's continued brainwashing program and the genocide that their ancestors committed. I respect them and would never confuse them with Turks who consciously deny the Armenian Genocide.

3. I can easily distance myself from the Genocide and its denial and not feel a lick of difference. But when I allow myself to feel the oppressed position Dutch Armenians, for instance, are in, it makes me sick to the stomach. It makes me sick to the stomach that everything Armenians try to do is thwarted one way or the other by these Turkish organizations and their many supporters.

4. By telling Turks that it's okay to not apologize, that we have already forgiven them, and that their denial makes no difference to us, gives them more reason to deny the Armenian Genocide and its consequences.

5. If denial of the Armenian Genocide, and the forms it has taken over the last 80 years should be ascribed to us, then Neo-Nazism should be ascribed to Jews, Gypsies, disabled, homosexuals etc. etc. I don't recall the last time Turks blamed ANYTHING on themselves. Therefore, why should we be so dumb to blame EVERYTHING on ourselves?

6. I never claimed to agree with everything the Armenian government thinks, says or does.

Nairi

#28 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 August 2002 - 02:11 PM

Rubo jan, this is the museum I was talking about:

Museum to counter genocide claims to be constructed

Turkish Daily News
August 1, 2002

ANKARA -- The Committee for the Coordination of the Struggle Against
Baseless Genocide Claims has issued a written
statement to announce that a museum will be constructed to house and
display documents related to the so-called Armenian genocide claims. In
addition, 20,000 documents from the Ottoman State archives will be
translated into English and broadcast over the net to counter the
groundless claims.

The committee recently held its fourth regular meeting under the
chairmanship of State Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Devlet Bahceli.
The statement revealed information contained in the archival documents
about the so-called Armenian genocide claims and included suggestions
from several distinguished media officials for informing people about
the Turkish side of the story.

"Research institutes, including the Turkiyat Institute, will carry out
scientific studies to counter the baseless genocide claims and will meet
the needs of citizens who would like to learn the Armenian [language],"
the statement read. It was also pointed out that the committee's next
meeting will be held in October.

#29 Rubo

Rubo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Art & Armenian issues

Posted 03 August 2002 - 02:46 PM

Nairi jan
Thanks for the info. I have been keeping up with this development. It saddens me that some of our people would feel disgusted about Armenian genocide museum but feel equally supportive about Holocaust museum or at best play the deaf and dump game. This attitude is hypocritical. Our heritage and experience is no less important then that of Jews. I do not care what Turks would do in response. They have been swimming in crap for 85 years and their actions do not surprise me a bet.

#30 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 August 2002 - 03:07 PM

Rubo jan, if "some of our people would feel disgusted about Armenian genocide museum..." refers to MJ, then you must have misunderstood the concept of this new museum. This is a museum that will be built by Turks in Turkey to prove that the Armenian Genocide is a lie. This has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide museum in Washington. If I'm the one who misunderstood you, then I apologize beforehand.

#31 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 03:44 PM

Dear Nairi,

1. If you live in a country with 385,000 whatever Turks, and they are dedicated to whatever tasks, why would “you” be so dumb as to try to win against them on a stage where they have clear advantage. Additionally, why don’t you live in Armenia where Armenians are predominant majority, then you can pass whatever resolutions you may think of. Though, one has to notice that Armenians living in Armenia have not been so dumb as to pass meaningless resolutions. I think this partially sheds light on my stance in my attitude towards your argument #3. What is the reaction of the Dutch, by the way, that these to foreign elements come to the Dutch soil and bring with them their centuries old problems. Do Dutch fill annoyed with it? What is the implication of it? (Any insights, Elly?)

2. The insinuation of “forgiving Turks and letting them off the hook” is ridiculous, to the least. We are not in the position of “letting them off the hook,” because we have never had them “on the hook,” nor have ever been in the position to “have them on the hook.” Whether Turks will recognize Armenian Genocide or not, it has nothing to do with us forgiving them or not. I, personally, have forgiven them. Perhaps not for their own sake, because it wouldn’t make any difference to them, but for my own sake – it helps me to be a better and healthier person.

3. I couldn’t understand your point in paragraph 5.

4. I also don’t agree with everything that Armenian Government thinks and does. However, I think there are certain things that are its prerogative. I, in turn, as an individual, can deal with issues that individuals deal. The issues that are State issues, should be dealt with by a State.

#32 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 03:47 PM

By the way.. you have misunderstood me. I was saying that I am disgusted by the Armenian, Turkish, Jewish, etc, museums of Genocide or Holocaust or whatever you call it.

#33 Rubo

Rubo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Art & Armenian issues

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:12 PM

mj<and from a different perspective, if the Genocide Recognition is becoming a political, academic, journalistic and commercial endeavor from one side, it is reasonable to expect or to tolerate, to the least, that its denial also may become such exercise?

Argishti>Defeatist ideology that which Turkish deniers use often: Could you be bringing examples of commercial endeavors?
You have not proved your statements with facts! Does neo-nazi Holocaust denial fair argument? According to your faulty logic, it is. Ask the Jews if they tolerate Holocaust deniers. (It’s a laugh, need coffee?)

#34 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:14 PM

Dear MJ, moving around isn't as easy as you think. Besides I don't particularly like today's situation in Armenia.

Let me reiterate what I've said elsewhere in this forum. In a free world anyone should have the right to practice whatever culture, religion etc. without any oppression or fear from anyone. You may disagree with a monument for the Genocide. You may even protest against a national commemoration day. But it doesn't take away that many other Armenians feel the sincere need to attend such a commemoration. Who is anyone to say that they shouldn't be allowed? Or that they shouldn't feel this need? Or that it isn't sincere?

What you're saying is that we shouldn't fight for a free world because the overwhelming majority is against it. Is it because you're too chicken to face this majority?

Paragraph 5 is an answer to the first part of your first paragraph.

#35 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:15 PM

Your Highness,

Go get life...oops, I meant a throne...

#36 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
Who is anyone to say that they shouldn't be allowed? Or that they shouldn't feel this need? Or that it isn't sincere?

Who is anyone to tell someone else what he/she should recognize and what he/she should not?

quote:
What you're saying is that we shouldn't fight for a free world because the overwhelming majority is against it. Is it because you're too chicken to face this majority?

No, I am not. But are you too dumb to clearly understand the futility of your thoughts and what I am trying to convey?

#37 Rubo

Rubo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Art & Armenian issues

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:21 PM

DEAR mj
Resorting to name calling just proves the weakness of your character and arguments. If you cannot debate in a civilized fashion then please don’t utter statements you can not handle.Cheers

#38 MJ

MJ

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,343 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Interests:Theology, Tennis, Jazz, Modern Art, Red Wine

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Rubo:
DEAR mj
Resorting to name calling just proves the weakness of your character and arguments. If you cannot debate in a civilized fashion then please don’t utter statements you can not handle.Cheers

Pathological ...

#39 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:42 PM

MJ, so you basically agree with the fact that Turks should continue with their denial policies and Armenians should just lay back and shut up. Meanwhile our country is blockaded, the Turkish army trespasses the borders every now and again, the Azeris are plannning a war against Artsax (even though the official Armenian position has been that of a peaceful solution), and what the heck let the Turks have the last bit of land we own as well while we're at it. Then we'll happily live ever after in diaspora and blame ourselves 'til kingdom come about all the ifs and buts we should or should not have done.

See, now I don't feel the same about your thoughts. There's thoughts you've expressed that I have learned from, other thoughts that confirmed mine, but every now and again, such as now, I disagree. This may seem futile to you, but hey, in a free world, you have all the freedom to qualify me as boring and useless as much as your heart desires.

Nairi

#40 Rubo

Rubo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Art & Armenian issues

Posted 03 August 2002 - 04:50 PM

These are the pinnacle examples of Mr.mj intellectual capacity. You have not proven any of your arguments.

Once again schizophrenia has taken over the active segment of the Hye Forum... It appears to me that it is a cyclical event...

Why not to spiral up to the next Darwinian level of our evolution?

And what should the adults driving like "vvvvvvvvvvvv,rrrrrr,vvvvvv......" with their mouths do?

Any more valuable insights?

Oh...firgive me , Sir. Didn't realize you were on a mission...

I feel compelled to say that I am disgusted with this thread.

Under a different mood, I would have considered your arguments about the handicap people as confession.

Don't you think, guys, it would be appropriate to open a thread "Khodja Hagaragian's and The Great Arghishty's Corner?"

Your Highness,

Go get life...oops, I meant a throne...

Plese send me your account number so that I make the tarnsfer...

Maybe, then, you will fill happier with yourself and get oof of my back... ( my favorite)

Argishti>It is quiet evident who exudes pathological utterances. cheers




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users