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The Name "tamar"


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#1 shaunt

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 07:34 PM

I'm asking because I know Jews that are named Tamar. Any relation between the Armenian name and the Jewish name?

#2 gamavor

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 08:22 PM

Maybe she is Armenian Jew. smile.gif Tell me please is there a name on Earth that is reserved for Non-Jews or Jews?

Tamar(a) is quite popular in Russia.

#3 ED

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (gamavor @ Apr 22 2005, 07:22 PM)
Tamar(a) is quite popular in Russia.



true, and especialy among Armenian man who happens to visit russia and always looking for the girl name Tamara wink.gif

#4 MosJan

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Apr 22 2005, 07:33 PM)
true, and especialy among Armenian man who happens to visit russia and always looking for the girl name Tamara wink.gif



Wrong smile.gif we look - or we usto look for Tamar@chka - Setchka - and most of All Natasha or Natya

#5 kars

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:27 PM

QUOTE (shaunt @ Apr 22 2005, 06:34 PM)
I'm asking because I know Jews that are named Tamar. Any relation between the Armenian name and the Jewish name?


Tamar, like many "Armenian" Christian names, is a Hebrew name and word. Literally it means “palm tree”, in Hebrew. It is first mentioned in the Bible (Genesis, 38:6), as Judah’s daughter-in-law, and numerous times thereafter.

Edited by kars, 22 April 2005 - 09:35 PM.


#6 gamavor

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:56 PM

I always look for Marusia, but usually end up with Natasha Rostova! biggrin.gif

#7 shaunt

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (kars @ Apr 22 2005, 09:27 PM)
Tamar, like many "Armenian" Christian names, is a Hebrew name and word. Literally it means “palm tree”, in Hebrew. It is first mentioned in the Bible (Genesis, 38:6), as Judah’s daughter-in-law, and numerous times thereafter.


Nice! Thanks for the response.

Gamavor, it seems everyone ends up with a Natasha in Russia, biggrin.gif .

#8 Zartonk

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:49 AM

Interesting. All I knew about Tamar was the Georgian Queen. Didnt think it was Hebrew.

#9 Nakharar

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:57 AM

The Georgian queen was actually of Armenian descent. The Bagratuni dynasty was originally Armenian.

#10 Zartonk

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 12:24 PM

Nice! I had no idea she was Bagratuni. Thnx. On this note though, who were the other Bagratuni monarchs in Georgia, and was this an autonomous Georgia?

Edited by Zartonk, 02 May 2005 - 12:27 PM.


#11 Artaxias

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 12:54 PM

QUOTE (Zartonk @ May 2 2005, 12:24 PM)
Nice! I had no idea she was Bagratuni. Thnx. On this note though, who were the other Bagratuni monarchs in Georgia, and was this an autonomous Georgia?



The founders of the dynasty were Armenian, who branched out to Georgia. Subsequent ones were Georgian Bagrations. So if Tamar and the later Bagratunis of Georgia are Armenian we have to conclude that Arshakunis were Parthian since the founders of the dynasty were Parthian.

#12 Armen

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE (Artaxias @ May 2 2005, 12:54 PM)
So if Tamar and the later Bagratunis of Georgia are Armenian we have to conclude that Arshakunis were Parthian since the founders of the dynasty were Parthian.


I agree with this. I would add that the current conduct of the Georgian governement towards the Armenian heritage of Georgia is to some extent a result of tactless (not to mention politically incorrect) attitude from our side towards Georgian history.

#13 ED

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 02:50 PM

But isent it true, this is according Xorenatsi, Bagratunis were of Hebrew origin? according to xorensti Tigran II brought back with him from Judia 2 hebrew generals which were serving in the Roman army, (along with 60 thousend slaves who were responsible of bulding at that time the capital Tigranakert and 90 persent of inhabitance were Hebrews) Bagarat and Shambat, thus gave rise to bagratuni in Armenia, and later Bagratyon dynasties in Giorgia.

I recall way back there was an intance debate weather xorenatsis version was a correct one, however none other then Xorenatsi was able to answer this question, that is the origin of Bagratuni dynasty.

#14 Maral

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 06:27 PM

I have nothing to add...except that my oldest daughters name is Tamar biggrin.gif

#15 Zartonk

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 06:33 PM

I actualy do see where the Georgian anger toward Armenians originates from. Most of us do claim them and their heritage as as just an extended branch of ours.

I mean as involved as Armenians were in Georgia, they posess a very unique and seperable culture.

#16 Arpa

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Maral @ May 3 2005, 12:27 AM)
I have nothing to add...except that my oldest daughters name is Tamar  biggrin.gif


Funny you say that. At times I am tempted to address you as such. One of my neices is named MARAL and another Tamar, she was born when every other girl was nmed so.
------------
The name Tamar comes to us from the bible, see below.
The conventional wisdom seems to that it means “palm” tree.
True, even if we may be led to believe that it is a Hebrew word in fact it is a word common to several ME languages. At the moment the Arabs use it to mean date, the fruit which we know as “armav” in Armenian. My suspicion is that it it is originally either Assyrian or Aramaic. Why would a girl be named Tamar, I.e. a palm tree?
A palm date may be the sweetest and saccarose fruit of the region. So in fact the name Tamar by inference means “sweet”, would it be the counterpart of the Armenian name Anush?

As long as we are talking about “armav”, more correctly “armau” as it is spelled with hyun ending, let us see where it comes from, and if we read carefully we may suspect that armav may somehow be related to tamar.
According to some sources “armav” comes to us from the Pahlavi.(Once again, let us consider the possibility of the Pahlavi having taken from the Armenian, even if the visa versa may be more probable as Armenia is not known to be a region amenable to the palm tree). The original Pahlavi is “xurma” (Turks and Persians still use the word). When we adopted the word we dropped the initial X(kh) and added the V at the end.

Whereas in the Roman tradition heroes were adorned with leaves of laurel, daphne, “dapne psak”, in the ME this was done with leaves of the palm tree (remember Palm Sunday) Hence in the Armenian at times we use “armaveni” instead of “dapne psak as an adornment of hero’s head, as in the phraae from a hymn- “haghtoghin armaveni“.

As to Queen Tamar of Vrastan, there is an Armenian connection through the Zakarians

http://www.searchgod...gi?number=T4206
"

The wife successively of the two sons of Judah, Er and Onan. (Genesis 38:8-30) (B.C. about 1718.) Her importance in the sacred narrative depends on the great anxiety to keep up the lineage of Judah. It seemed as if the family were on the point of extinction. Er and Onan had successively perished suddenly. Judah’s wife, Bathshuah, died; and there only remained a child, Shelah, whom Judah was unwilling to trust to the dangerous union as it appeared, with Tamar, lest he should meet with the same fate as his brothers. Accordingly she resorted to the desperate expedient of entrapping the father himself into the union which he feared for his son. The fruits of this intercourse were twins, Pharez and Zarah, and through Pharez the sacred line was continued. Daughter of David and Maachah the Geshurite princess, and thus sister of Absalom. (2 Samuel 13:1-32; 1 Chronicles 3:9) (B.C. 1033.) She and her brother were alike remarkable for their extraordinary beauty. This fatal beauty inspired a frantic passion in her half-brother Amnon, the oldest son of David by Ahinoam. In her touching remonstrance two points are remarkable: first, the expression of the infamy of such a crime "in Israel" implying the loftier standard of morals that prevailed, as compared with other countries at that time; and second, the belief that even this standard might be overborne lawfully by royal authority --"Speak to the king, for he will not withhold me from thee." The intense hatred of Amnon succeeding to his brutal passion, and the indignation of Tamar at his barbarous insult, even surpassing her indignation at his shameful outrage, are pathetically and graphically told. Daughter of Absalom, (2 Samuel 14:7) became, by her marriage with Uriah of Gibeah, the mother of Maachah, the future queen of Judah or wife of Abijah. (1 Kings 15:2) (B.C. 1023.) A spot on the southeastern frontier of Judah, named in (Ezekiel 47:19; 48:28) only, evidently called from a palm tree. If not Hazazon-tamar, the old name of Engedi, it may he a place called Thamar in the Onamasticon [HAZAZON-TAMAR), a day’s journey south of Hebro

Edited by Arpa, 04 May 2005 - 05:22 AM.


#17 Maral

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 09:49 PM

Arpa,and why exactly did you capitalize Tamar and not maral???????????? mad.gif tongue.gif

#18 Arpa

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 05:26 AM

QUOTE (Maral @ May 4 2005, 03:49 AM)
Arpa,and why exactly did you capitalize Tamar  and not maral???????????? mad.gif  tongue.gif

So do I get "capital" punishment? smile.gif
Look above. Not only you are capitalized you are highlighted as well.
Never mind Queen Tamar, our queen is Maral! smile.gif smile.gif

#19 Arpa

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 05:56 AM

Of course, when talking about “tamar” we cannot ignore its relative. Not really as they are of different botanical families.

Why is it that we name our daughters “tamar and not “tamarind” or more correctly-tamar hindi?

http://www.hort.purd...n/tamarind.html

Distribution
Native to tropical Africa, the tree grows wild throughout the Sudan and was so long ago introduced into and adopted in India that it has often been reported as indigenous there also, and it was apparently from this Asiatic country that it reached the Persians and the Arabs who called it "tamar hindi" (Indian date, from the date-like appearance of the dried pulp), giving rise to both its common and generic names. Unfortunately, the specific name, "indica", also perpetuates the illusion of Indian origin. The fruit was well known to the ancient Egyptians and to the Greeks in the 4th Century B.C.


I had known tamarind and about it first hand as in the ME street vendors sell a drink made with it and it is usually the more expensive and more preferred beverage. I had always taken for granted that it indeed was from India, but judging from the above it seems it was introduced there from Africa.

Is the reason we don’t call our daughters tamarind or tamar hindi because it is a sweet and sour fruit as it is very tangy?

#20 Maral

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ May 4 2005, 05:26 AM)
So do I get "capital" punishment? smile.gif
Look above. Not only you are capitalized you are highlighted as well.
Never mind Queen Tamar, our queen is Maral!  smile.gif smile.gif

Ah I see...so you prefer your neice Maral over your neice Tamar eh? wink.gif

ok I'll let it go biggrin.gif

You are just a wealth of information Arpa....lucky for us....




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