Christianity

And the absence of the state was entirely in the interests of the Church. Especially, when it came to collecting the "tasnord" taxes. As a matter of fact, one may ask a question how come all the invaders tolerated the autonomy of the Armenian Church, if it was not providing the type of leadership that suited the enslavement of the Armenian people? Why would the Armenian Church suppress the feelings of national liberation movements throughout centuries?

I think that Armenian Church's historic influence on the Armenian people has been dual. Let's take some individuals and facts as examples.

1.Mesrop Mashtots and Sahak Partev: plus
2.Armenian clergy's fight against King Pap: minus
3.Mass paticipation of clergy in Avarair battle: plus
4.Betrayal of Catholicos Petros Getadars : minus
5.Schools, scientific centers etc: plus
6.Constant bribery: minus



[This message has been edited by Berj (edited August 30, 2000).]

Steve jan,

I don´t take you for a conservative Armenian, not at all. Let me give you an analogy that I have the sense you will like: Judaism. It is not a perfect analogy but I hope it helps.

I am amazed with you MJ. Probably you are a Hayasdantsi Hay, otherwise you would know that the Armenian Diaspora exists because of the Armenian church. Like it or not it was the institution ( along with the political parties, schools ) that kept us together, that kept us Armenians.
Probably the Armenian church is full of economically motivated clergymen , but this does not diminish the soul of this Institution.

Let me refresh our memories a bit : Why did king Dertad addopt Christianity and established our Church?
He saw the danger of our nation being absorbed by the mighty Persian empire , since we used to share not only similar religion but also similar traditions . We would have become Persians.

King Bab cut the ties with the Greek Orthodox Church , Why? Because the Greeks started mingling into our political and state affairs.
In a similar way , sultan Muhammad II the Conqueror of Constantinopole , created the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinopole , in order to diminish the Greek infuence.

The old City of Jerusalem is divided into 4 sections , one of which is the Armenian one with our strong and influential Patriarchate.
It ensures and proves our historical presense in the Middle East.

Spartacus? You reminded me of the numerous statues of him all over the Soviet Bloc. How can you compare him with Jesus?

I can go on and on forever , but please don't insult our most precious institution.
Man is weak and full of faults , so might be our clergymen, but this does not cancel the importance of the Armenian Church.

The Armenian State is full of corrupted and selfish public servants. Do we say that we should not have a government ? No , we fight to correct the faults and weaknesses of the government , becasue after all they are part of us . So is our Church.

Raffi,

I beg to disagree. The diaspora remained Armenian mostly, because of (and sometimes in spite of) institutions such as AGBU, ARF, ARS, and much less because of the church. These are the ones that sponsored schools, clubs, and so on that kept our language and culture alive and in day to day practice in the diaspora. Not our corrupt, mostly uneducated, self-important clergy.

You are right that I am Hayastantsi Hay, in that I was born, educated and raised in Armenia – such a tremendous place to be (have you been in Armenia?). And I take pride in it. I am aware of the role of the Armenian Church in the task of the preservation of Armenian Diaspora. This is the story of the last 100 or less years, perhaps. The issue that I have tried to raise was meant to be in the context of the last almost 2000 years of Armenian history. One of the points that I wanted to make was that wile we can and should give credit to the Church for the positive role as a Social Institution it has played throughout the history, we should admit that the role of a Church is something else – spiritual leadership. This is what I believe the Armenian Church has not provided, and still has a way to go to get there. Weather the Armenian Church is full of economically motivated people or not, that’s not the issue. The Protestant Church is the same, and I would suspect that that’s the same with the Catholics.

As far as King Trdat is concerned, I am not sure that what you said was the motivation of Trdat in accepting Christianity. At least the legend says that Trdat was persecuting the Christians, and in particular he had thrown Grigor the Illuminator into a dungeon called Khor Virap for 14 years (there is a Church built around that dungeon in Armenia). Then, Trdat became very ill. His face swell like a face of pig (my translation). He was told that there is one man who can save him - the man that he had put in dungeon. Trdat orders to bring the Illuminator to him. The Illuminator promises to treat him, if he accepts Christianity (it might be that there was also a request for the whole nation - sorry many years have passed since I have read this legend). This is why, it is claimed in the legend, Armenians accepted Christianity. Of course it is a legend, but I though it is worth mentioning. But if we assume that Trdat has accepted Christianity for the sake of the preservation of the Nation, that helps me to make my point. As you claim, the Christianity was not accepted because of the message of Jesus Christ, or the understanding of his sacrifice and resurrection, but rather for political purposes. I think that’s too bad. That would mean, as far as I am aware of, the first expression of hypocrisy in both Armenian State structures, and in the Armenian Church. Appearantly, the Christianity according to you was founded in Arenia on false premises. How bad that the foundations of Armenian statehood were so weak even then, that we needed to accept Christianity to save it, Christianity which was supposed to be the religion of all nations-regardless of ethnicity, race and statehood. I think in that capacity, it was not a very honest think to do. And the dishonesty always has implications. It never goes away. I built this argument based just on your proposition.

What ties King Bab had with the Greek Orthodox Church that he cut? If not Greeks, than others were always mingling into our political and state affairs before and after Bob. The primary subject of arguments in Armenian Nobel circles was where should the Armenian youth be educated – Bysantium or Persia? After all, the coronation of the subsequent Armenian Kings for long time had to be validated by the foreign powers – sorry, I am starting to forget the names (may be somebody here may help me). If the Christianity has to be used as an argument supporting the preservation of the Armenian Statehood, I feel compelled to state that in fact we lost our Statehood, and subsequently our limited autonomy under the Persian Empire because of the Christianity. The bottle of Avarire in no way was a bottle for the country, but rather the first Christian - religious war in the history. As a result, the entire Armenian Army was eliminated, and we couldn’t bring an Army together for several centuries to come. And as long as the Church was not being touched by the foreigners, that was OK. That was even better. Now, finally the Church had the upper hand. In this context I don’t mean to single out the Armenian Church. More or less the same picture has prevailed in Europe.

Your evidence on sultan Mohammad II creating the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinopole also helps to make my point – what purposes is the Armenian Church being used for? Why is the Church interfering in geopolitical affairs? Is this when the precedent was set up so that subsequently to become an agent of the Soviet Foreign Intelligence Service?


Thank you for reminding me about the Armenian control of parts of Jerusalem. But I don’t have any doubts about the historic presence of Armenian Church in Middle East and elsewhere.

I am sorry that my comments about Spartacus have been misunderstood. I didn’t mean to compare Spartakus, who probably was a good man, with Jesus. I just was trying to make a point that the cross does not have much to do with Jesus, and tried just to provide a reminder, that perhaps more than thousands of people before and after Jesus were tortured on the cross. Recall also Barnabas (hope I am spelling correctly), who was put to death on the cross along with Jesus at the same time. What I wanted to say by my remark was that the cross itself has no spiritual value, and Apostle Paul in The Acts (Gortsk Arakelots) warns us on the symbols of faith. The lesson from the crucifixion that we were supposed to learn was that Jesus Christ was sent to the Earth to be sacrificed for our sins, so that we could be saved. I think this primary message is missing in our Church, and instead we all trumpet how important the Church has been in the task of preservation of the Armenian Diaspora. On a different note, I have to say that if the preservation serves no particular purpose, it is of no value or significance. But this is a different topic.

By the way, I have been in many Soviet states, but never have seen or heard of a statue of Spartakus. I wonder if you could share your source of information. Instead, in Yerevan I have seen and admired the magnificent Statue of our Patriarch Haik, who proudly oversees that our nation can rest assured that its borders are being protected... And he was not Christian, I have asked him about it myself

If you have felt insulted by my remarks, I sincerely apologize. Believe me please, my goal in posting my remarks has not been insulting our fellow Armenians or insulting even the Armenian Church. I understand that this subject has been a taboo throughout centuries. But I ask if we cannot discuss it here, where can we, or if we cannot discuss it, who can?

I would also like to see the Armenian Church fulfill its main function – provide spiritual leadership on the capacity of the body of Jesus Christ.


You are right that the Armenian State is full of corrupted and selfish public servants. It is such a pity. I am a stunt supporter of the Armenian Statehood and a strong government. In a little more subtle way, I am also a supporter of the Armenian Church, and in no way advocate getting rid of it. I wonder why did you make this conclusion? To the contrary, I think in the era of the amazing technological advances around the world, especially in the fields of Informatics and Genetic Engineering, the only chance of survival that the Armenian Church may have is returning to the roots of Christianity and fulfilling its long overdue historic mission.

I appreciate your reply to my remarks, and look forward to the next round.

P.S. With the liberalization of the society, and the opening of the borders I am puzzled how, while lacking the intellectual and spiritual capacity, is the Armenian Church going to compete with the aggressive sects like Jehovah’s Witnesses for the soul of the Armenian people. Instead, as we see, now they go back to the state and ask, "Crack down on them! Exile them!"

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

MJ, i don't know what kind of Hayastandci hay you are if you question our religion. Get rid of the cross??? You've got to be kidding. Cross is our symbol, which protects from satan. What kind of Armenian you've got to be if you question our religion.

I am not discussion this bulchit. Makes no sence. You can question Christianity in some muslim forum. And you can also change your religion to Islam. But you'll be the biggest shame of our people. I hate people who question my religion, i kill that person questions it and says anything against it!

God bless you!

Dear Artur,

I think you couldn’t be more descriptive, while getting out of the closet. “I hate people who question my religion, i kill that person questions it and says anything against it!” Wow! This is what you have learned from Christianity... Very remarkable! I am sorry, but cannot resist the temptation of pointing on your lack of exposure to Christianity. Please, before you claim you are Christian, read at least for once the Holly Book.

If you had ever read it, or if you had any basic understanding of Christianity on the basis of a limited verbal communication, you would have known that it is a sin for a Christian to replace the faith with a symbol, or to hate somebody, no matter how bad the person is (on a psychoanalytic level, the hate is a self-destructing feeling). You would have also been able to notice that in the Holly Book there is no mention of a Satan, but an evil. I am afraid your urge of being protected from the Satan by means of the crucifix is resulted from watching too many American movies on vampires in your youth. Please let me know if I can help you to get rid of your fears.

I think that you have missed the main points of my posting. But not to warry! No one is perfect, and neither am I.

I would also love to educate you on the subject of Islam vs. Christianity. And there is no reason for me to change my religion, because I don’t belong to any religion. As I have, apearantly unsuccessfully, tried to articulate before, I see no connection between faith and spirituality, and religion.

Thank you for your blessings. May God also bless you, your family and our Nation.

Love you, man...


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

Sorry MJ, but Arthur is totally right.
You can't question a religion, whatever religion it is. You just can't. If you don't believe in a certain religion, you can't urge people not to believe themselves or say that the religion is wrong. Nope, you can't do that either.
Let me give you a short religious lesson about Christianity and the Holy Bible. For a matter of fact, yes satan is mentionned in the Bible, when he tries to convince Jesus in doing things with which Jesus would prove that He really is the son of God. And if the Cross should not be used because we can't symbolize a religion, then why do we use it in churches or on the dress of every Catholicos. Why did the Jews crucify Jesus on a Cross? Plus, let's talk about the Jesus Fish, that Jesus and His Apostles put on trees or homes wherever they went. Doesn't the Jesus Fish symbolize Christianity?
You're not Christian, you're not Armenian!

God bless you, and every other Armenian in the whole world.

Hayesdu,

God has given intelligence and freedom to man to question everything they may think of. The Apostle Thovmas himself questioned the authenticity of Christ, while the Apostle Petros betrayed him trice. Thank you for the lesson. Always glad to learn something new. By the way, what Bible are you reading? I cannot recall a name Satan in the New Testament? Why do we use cross in the churches and the dress of every Catholicos? I think it is more of a rhetoric question, and is addressed not to the right person. I also feel that you are judging on the subject of Christianity based on your Grandma’s stories and allegories.

As to the Fish, I think it might equally symbolize the ignorant people, who pretend they read, listen, think and learn, but never analyze, question or understand? They just eat, sleep, reproduce other ignorant men, and don’t teach them to read, to listen, to think, to learn, question and understand...And it goes on and on for generations...

You are right that I am not Christian in your sense of the word. Neither was Jesus.

As to my fact of being Armenian, I feel very secure on that capacity, and I make that decision for myself. As far as you are concerned, unfortunately for Armenia, you are Armenian...

Can you understand now how difficult it is to bring order in Armenia?

Look, when I posted my initial remarks, I tried to initiate an intelligent discussion, and a critical analysis of the history of our nation. I didn’t want to offend or ridicule anybody. What kind of Christians do you claim to be, if you cannot even tolerate an academic conversation, which deviates from your beliefs of the Grandma version of the New Testament.

I see no point in continuing this discussion with you.

And May God's Grace and Mercy be with you forever.

MJ my man,
I would like to know who brainwashed you this way? Can you wait a bit so that I can find that passage and tell it to you.

May God bless you!

Dear Hye Forum users,

Isn't it a scary universe that I am on the side of Artur and others on this Forum? What is this forum coming to!!! Anyway, MJ and Boghos, you seem like you have a lot of issues with the Armenian Church. Honestly, I myself, though baptize in the Armenian Church, am much more Protestant in belief, so don't think I am some khatchkar wearing Grigorian. Still, it seems like your attitude toward religion in general is very Humanistic/secular, for instance you refer to the conversion of Trdat as a legend. Do you have a particular faith? Do you believe in supernatural miracles? I know that Artur is a bit of a fanatic at times, but I don't think he really means that he wants to kill you, its just an expression.

Also Raffi's point about Diaspora Armenian identity being preserved by the Church is very true. Yes you mention the Armenian organizations, AGBU for instance, were sponsored and supported by the Armenian Church , with these organizations meeting in Church halls etc. Don't even argue with this buddy, because I am a diasporan Armenian from Iran!

Gentlemen, ladies,

Let me summarize my positions:

- there is a difference between being a Christian and being a member of a given church

- institutionalized religion is like institutionalized everything else, it is in the hands of a few people

- it is a great myth that the Armenian church was responsible for the survival of the diaspora. We can look at old examples such as Poland, that had the whole structure of the church there, including special privileges, but there are very few Armenians left there from the first migration wave in the late XVI century.

As to the diaspora after the genocide, I reaffirm from experience, from having visited countless communities around the world, that the church did not have a key role in keeping the diaspora alive. There are very few church sponsored institutions that would allow this to happen. There are very few youth groups, hospitals, schools, all the tradition institutions that help promote a sense of community, of belonging. It is true that there are clergymen who have done a very good job, in California, in London. But these are excpetions. The Armenian church has usually adopted a passive position and has sat on the throne of "National Churchhood". It expects to be served, not to serve the people.

Oh come on people!!!

Oh come on people!!!
What are you talking about????
Are you Armenian or something???
How can you dare speak against our church???
I don't care about the priests accepting bribes, I am talking about the church as a whole!!!!
There is no Armenian culture without our church!!Church has been keeping us together for centuries!!!Things like AYF, etc, didn't exist 500 years ago!!!
The monks from the churches kept our books so that you can go now and see what your ancestors created!!The CHURCH people Mashtoc and Partev gave you the letters to make you more Armenian!!I just can go on and on and on!!
Oh my gosh, how can you even dare....
I didn't expect that from Armenian people, seriously.... (

Belief or faith is a special relationship between man and God. Any Church is ( or is supposed to be ) the vehicle through which man will approach God. However this discussion is very huge and I don’t think is the subject of our discussions.

I am not a religious fanatic and as you might have noticed I am mostly stressing the importance of the role of our Church in preserving our national identity. Our Church is not simply a spiritual tank , it is a National Church , because it undertook the role of the state during centuries of occupation. Who gave it that role? But of course , our own people , ignorant or backward or uneducated , they chose the church to do that.
You are asking whether the Armenians would be better off without the Church and its wars ( instigated by them as you suggest). Instead I can simply put forward a straight question : Would there be any Armenian left on Earth if our selfish Church did not exist? Or we would have become Persians, Greeks , Mongols , Russians or name it what ?
They were our spiritual /political leaders as well as our teachers , our poets , our psychologists and yes , our tax collectors. After all they were the only social institution left in the country with which even our enemies had to negotiate.
Was this supposed to be the role of the Church ? No , but circumstances pushed things that way.
Which other social structure could undertake this role?
If you disagree name the structure , which kept us Armenians .

The history lessons prepared and taught during the Soviet regime cannot be taken into proper consideration. Get out of it for a while and think clearly. It is obvious the influence that some of us have from these sources.

MJ . please tell me where do the Armenians who are fed up from the political parties go to meet other Armenians and try preserve their national identity?
Where do the non-Armenian speaking Armenians go to meet and feel Armenians?

My great grandmother was from a turkish speaking village . What was that kept her (and thousands like her) Armenian? She only knew the “Hayr Mer” and her frequent visits to the Armenian Church, kept her Armenian.

Maybe the advanced societies , like the Scandinavian ones , have social structures which have taken firm shape and strength ( which I doubt ) , but our Armenian society and our country is still very weak. We do not need to break all the structures , at least not yet.

Yes, we should discuss and find solutions to improve our Church , our State , our schools , our political parties etc. etc. etc. After all constructive suggestions and talks can only make us stronger .We learn from each other and maybe one day we might become stronger and wiser. I love getting into these kind of arguments , because I always learn new things and my thoughts and ideas become clearer and refined.

Unless you provide us with alternatives , please don’t destroy one of the very few things left in life in which us , the weak and ignorant , have still some faith ( illusionary or not ). Why does this annoy you after all?

"Are you Armenian or something ?"

Why can´t we discuss our opinions, positions, impressions on the church, political parties or anything else for that matter without having to retort to the usual ad hominen attacks.

Nobody has shown me any evidence of the church fundamental relevance in keeping the diaspora "Armenian" after the genocide.

The Armenian Church, for whom I have the greatest respect, lost its grip on power after the genocide. Since then it has been replaced by other civil insitutions as I have mentioned and the state functions were assumed by the authorities in Armenia. In the diaspora the respective states of immigration slowly took charge of the church functions in many countries, such as birth registration.

Now as to the spiritual function, the decline of the church has been similar to the decline of many other churches. Especially those that did not jump into Disneyland type ceremonies or other activities. We have been witnessing progressively the desinstitutionalization of religion. That´s all.

Nothing is beyond analysis or critique.

Now! This one is for MJ!

Hey boy! You call yourself an Armenian, and Armenian who has been raised in Armenia and is very proud of it, proud of our homeland, homeland where lhachkars are spread everywhere, where churches were made from rocks, place where you can find crosses everywhere. Now you are saying that everything you've been living with is crap and is wrong??? You say we adopt christianity because of Persians?! Bulachit, Armenians are the first who adopted.

You want to understand my reaction to you posting? I'll explain. I am very proud of my religion, my homeland, where I live. I believe in ONE god, I have ONE religion, I respect our traditions. And i am very stict about it. And remeber one thing, if you are an Armenian you don't question any of it!!!

You sound like a muslim guy who came here to insult the first Christian nation, saying that what Armenians wear(cross) everyday is wrong. Let me tell you, you are not insulting or offend only me and people here, but your whole nation, our homeland, our only love, our pride!!! Think about it. Not even muslims are allowed to say anything about my religion, because if they say what you've said to me to my face, next minute I would bring them Judgement Day, wil they would be begging on the knees. Man, you support them, saying what they say about our cross etc. Now, think about it.

Astvadz kez het!

Why can’t we get into constructive arguments without insulting each other? All of us have our strong arguments and required intelligence to make a point about it. I thought it was during the Dark Ages, when one couldn’t question religion. Catholic church solved the issue with the trial of Galileo. Hyemyes, people can and should question religion, since it’s a belief with a lot of contradictions.

Armenian church was doing a great job during the Soviet years, by serving a religious institution. In ‘90s there was such a religious revival in Armenia, St. Sarkis was packed on weekends, and people really wanted to be connected to church. It seemed like a religion was the missing ingredient in people’s psyche. The response of Armenian Church to such an enthusiasm was less then adequate. As a result we got many marginal cults spread in Armenia, who were able to get many followers. The response of clergy to peoples’ plight was even embarrassing. Remember Ter-Husik, the chairman of HHSH, he was a clergyman, and wasn’t the only one who was trying to financially benefit from the changes in ruling class. I agree that due to unfortunate historical developments our church served more than as a religious organization. Some of you, who have lived longer in Spyurk, might have a better idea what was the argument between Antilias and Echmiadsin 20-30 years ago. The above mentioned examples show that our church is in desperate need of reforms. It should be a religious organization, with a unique national character, not a politicized, money making machine. Church shouldn’t be allowed to become politicized, as it has become. The whole institution has become rather corrupt, and unless the new catholicos starts reforms, the role of church as a religious institution will diminish.

Just one thing to say now.

IT'S WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE : NEVER GO INTO DEP THOUGHTS ABOUT RELIGION, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T FIND LOGICAL ANSWERS TO IT.

In these days, everything in "scientificicized" and we can't base our arguments about religion on science and try to find logic in religion. We can't do that, because religion is about faith. Do you need scientific proof to believe that Jesus Christ exists or existed? Of course not. You must believe that Jesus Christ lived and was the Son of God. It's all a matter of faith. Don't look for scientific proof because there ain't no scientific stuff in religion.