Gul in Armenia and the ARF

[Boghos]

 

 

http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/08/30/armenia...football-match/

[Arpa]

That blog is sensationalistic, misleading and irresponsible at best. They can’t hide their contempt of the ARF. If one were not to read it carefully one would assume that the flag burning picture is happening now. It is from April.

Yes, let us burn their flag but not during the visit. There will be millions of reporters and video cameras, the events will be broadcast live. Any ugliness will be shown to the world over and over again.

Yes, let us burn their flag but after the dust has settled so to speak, when we can get our message across louder and clearer. Otherwise they will win the “match” 1.5 million to zero.

As Yervant said in another thread, “Football Diplomacy” let us show our hospitality and dispel that “ugly Armenian” picture that they feed their unsuspecting (suspecting) masses day in and day out..

 

[Boghos]

They can’t hide their contempt of the ARF.

Isn´t that a good sign? )

[Arpa]

Isn´t that a good sign? )

Yes it is!

Dear Boghos, honestly, as a far as I am concerned Hnchaks, Dashnaks and Ramkavars can all, along with the other 66 so called "political parties" go to that hot place. Have they not exceeded thier long overdue welcome?

These are new times, not the ottoman days, we need new ideas.

Why can't we have a two party system, one incumbent and one challenger? If 300 million Americans can, what is our (less than 2 million)problem?

The hell with them all. Hnchak, Dashnak, Ramkavar and , and, and, and.......! Have they not overstayed their welcome?

One of my best friends, khnami is a highly placed ramkavar, yet we always clash when they try to convince me that their agenda is better than those of the Dashnaks, and try promote thier own agenda, wasting, duplicating our limited resources to in the process, just to say "I/WE DID IT.

Over 70 million furks have one central society in America. Why do less than ONE million Armenians have 70 million?

Edited September 1, 2008 by Arpa

[Boghos]

Dear Arpa,

I cannot disagree with you. Our parties are over, all of them. ARF is more an extreme nationalist cult rather than a party. Ramgavar no longer exists, whatever is left for practical purposes has been incorporated in AGBU.

[Arpa]

Dear Arpa,

I cannot disagree with you. Our parties are over, all of them. ARF is more an extreme nationalist cult rather than a party. Ramgavar no longer exists, whatever is left for practical purposes has been incorporated in AGBU.

The most ridiculous of them all is their acronym of ARF=Armenian Revolutionary Federation, ՀՅԴ= Հայ Յեղափոխական Դաշնակցութիւն

Heghapokhakan? Heghapokhakan-revolutionary against whom?

Also note the "federation". Federation with whom?

The others are no less ridiculous. Ramkavar? Ռամկավար? One of the most common definitions of RAMIK/ՌԱՄԻԿ is VULGAR.

How about Hnchak? Like Ding Dong the Witch is dead? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOEq-ImGWJ0

 

Yes. I can hit them all as my hammer is made of iron and steel, not of mud.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

Long live the party of "No Party", abolish them all. If I only had my way.

[ED]

The most ridiculous of them all is their acronym of ARF=Armenian Revolutionary Federation, ՀՅԴ= Հայ Յեղափոխական Դաշնակցութիւն

Heghapokhakan? Heghapokhakan-revolutionary against whom?

Also note the "federation". Federation with whom?

Yes. I can hit them all as my hammer is made of iron and steel, not of mud.

 

 

hexapoxakan in among common enemy, dashnaktsutyun among our self's

 

whats so tareble about ARF?

Edited September 2, 2008 by ED

[Zartonk]

The only good party is the Communist Party.

 

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/communist%20party.gif

[Arpa]

hexapoxakan in among common enemy, dashnaktsutyun among our self's

whats so tareble about ARF?

This reconfirms the notion, when furks refer to us they avoid using the word “Armenian” instead they use such euphemisms as “dashnak” and “ASALA”.

When will we start thinking with our heads instead of the opposite end?

For once, can we speak out of our “beran” instead of “srban”?

Can we hold our peace for a few days, that is until the dust is settled, show the world our “civilized” face rather than what they call the “ugly” face of the Armenian?

Can we wait until they have departed and then, turn our backs, “moon” them and tell them what we think of their “moon”?

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/m/mooning.asp

Moon/Crescent.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t129/se...urkish_flag.gif

How different is it from this.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a217/you...ickle_clean.png

 

 

http://www.armenianow.com/?action=viewArti...g&IID=1200#

Daring Dashnaks: Nationalist Party vows protests against Turkish president’s Yerevan visit By Vahan Ishkhanyan Published: 03 September, 2008

National Assembly Vice-Speaker Hrair Karapetyan representing the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) urged the public to participate in protests against the arrival of the Turkish president in Armenia, which he said will begin from the airport, as he spoke before thousands of party sympathizers Tuesday.

Even though the Dashanktsutyun rally near Matenadaran was formally dedicated to the 17th anniversary of Nagorno-Artsax’s declaration of independence from Azerbaijan, Karapetyan and other speakers put emphasis on Armenian-Turkish relations and Abdullah Gul’s visit to Armenia due on September 6.

The municipality had initially banned the rally, but the administrative court later overturned that decision in favor of Dashnaktsutyun.

Dashnaktsutyun Bureau member Levon Mkrtchyan said that relations with Turkey cannot improve unless the latter recognizes the genocide of Armenians committed by the Ottoman Turkish government in 1915.

“A top Turkish official for the first time comes to Armenia not as an invader and massacre perpetrator, but as a guest, and we must show our united will to this high-ranking guest with all due respect for democratic laws, and must prove that there are issues that are absolute values for the Armenian people and are connected with its existence,” he said.

President Serzh Sargsyan, who had invited his Turkish counterpart to “enjoy together” the September 6 World Cup qualifier between Armenia and Turkey in Yerevan, commented in an interview with the Turkish Radikal newspaper on August 28 on the negative attitude of the governing coalition member, Dashnaktsutyun, towards Gul’s visit. He, in particular, said: “I think that the actions they will take to make their voice heard will not overstep the limits of the actions acceptable for this kind of official visits. Those who will display uncivilized attitude toward President Gule will display it first of all toward Armenia and myself since the invitation was issued by me.”

Another senior Dashnak lawmaker Vahan Hovhannisyan spoke about the current situation in neighboring Georgia and, in particular, called for it to become a confederative state and for Javakhk, a mostly Armenian-populated province in Georgia, to become an autonomy within that state.

“Georgian leaders should have understood that the guarantee of Georgia’s development and stability is a confederative state and in that case the rights of Javakhk would be protected,” he said.

National Assembly Defense Committee Chairman Artur Aghabekyan, in his turn, emphasized in his speech that the issue of signing a legally binding non-aggression agreement between the parties to the Nagorno-Artsax conflict should be raised before the international community in light of the recent armed conflict in South Ossetia.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Arpa

[Boghos]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7596768.stm

[DominO123]

The only good party is the Communist Party.

 

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/communist%20party.gif

 

Looks like a retro Coca Cola commercial.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Arpa, I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

First, the biggest criticism that strong democracies have against the United States is the two-party system - it's also why voter participation is negligible in the United States to the point where cynics can make a strong argument that it's no longer an actual democracy.

 

Second, you dislike the parties. That's your choice. But half the things you say are just silly - simply because you're ignorant of facts, doesn't mean the facts don't exist. If you're asking what the ARF is - rather, why it is called the "Armenian Revolutionary Federation" - then I can answer you: Armenian is obvious; Revolutionary is because it is a Socialist organization, and one of its core ideals is the belief in the Proletarian revolution, though colored in this case by a belief in nationalist ideals, as well as the revolution against the various Powers that held dominion over the Armenians; Federation because, at its founding, it was held as a federation of different Armenians from different parts of the nation (from the Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, and Persian Empire) and different political parties. Thus, Armenian Revolutionary Federation. You don't change the names of institutions simply because "right now, they no longer apply" - hell, arguments can be made that they still apply, very much, since much of Armenia is still not in Armenia, and it's a federation of Diasporan and Republican Armenians.

[Z'areh]

Arpa, I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

First, the biggest criticism that strong democracies have against the United States is the two-party system - it's also why voter participation is negligible in the United States to the point where cynics can make a strong argument that it's no longer an actual democracy.

 

Second, you dislike the parties. That's your choice. But half the things you say are just silly - simply because you're ignorant of facts, doesn't mean the facts don't exist. If you're asking what the ARF is - rather, why it is called the "Armenian Revolutionary Federation" - then I can answer you: Armenian is obvious; Revolutionary is because it is a Socialist organization, and one of its core ideals is the belief in the Proletarian revolution, though colored in this case by a belief in nationalist ideals, as well as the revolution against the various Powers that held dominion over the Armenians; Federation because, at its founding, it was held as a federation of different Armenians from different parts of the nation (from the Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, and Persian Empire) and different political parties. Thus, Armenian Revolutionary Federation. You don't change the names of institutions simply because "right now, they no longer apply" - hell, arguments can be made that they still apply, very much, since much of Armenia is still not in Armenia, and it's a federation of Diasporan and Republican Armenians.

 

KoA,

 

I would agree with you except the ARF is not respecting the "R" part of their name. What the heck are they doing in the Sarkissian administration? They look very foolish in "disagreeing" with president Gul's visit all the while being part of a government that invites the Turkish president to Armenia. Sorry, with all due respect to this party, there is something very wrong in this picture.

 

Furthermore, do we have territorial claims from Turkey, if "yes" then say it, if "no" then say it also. Is Kars treaty in force or not? Vartan Oskanian thinks it is, if not then we should demand rectification of it in no uncertain terms. We are fuddy-duddying on this issue and the Turks, as blurted out by their foreign minister Babacan, feel more and more confident that Turkey will have Armenia in a corner with this new Turkish-Armenian rapprochement because, at least in their minds, this will put a stop to Genocide resolutions in foreign countries, MEANING: Armenia will stop pursuing Turkey for Genocide recognition or forget about land and compensation issue altogether. If that is the case fine! then let's declare it and get on with it. But how will ARF explain their participation in a government that will allow such a policy?

 

Richard Giragossian, the Armenian-American analyst made an important remark, he said Sakisian is trying to balance his unpopularity in Armenia with that of looking for popularity from the outside world, if this indeed is the case then we can qualify Sarkisian's actions as selling out Armenian interests for personal reasons. But realizing the harshness of such a comment I reserve judgment for later.

 

Arpa, I agree with you about the "obsoleteness" of these parties, but in the absence of a better alternative, in a dog-eating-dog atmosphere of post-Soviet Armenian politics (we saw the birth and the danger of a fake party called HHsH) these "old" parties are still useful today. We hope!

Edited September 12, 2008 by Z'areh

[Eurocentric]

I like the ARF but I would never support them since they are a socialist party. Promoting socialism is not only silly today but just stupid. They are also way too cult like. They need to be revamped and moved towards the center-right.

[Twilight Bark]

Furthermore, do we have territorial claims from Turkey, if "yes" then say it, if "no" then say it also. Is Kars treaty in force or not? Vartan Oskanian thinks it is, if not then we should demand rectification of it in no uncertain terms.

There is no justification for being "clearer" than the government has been. Ambiguity is an indispensible tool for diplomacy. There are two cases when you don't need diplomacy: because you have absolute and crushing superiority to dictate your terms bluntly, or you are defeated and crushed, and are signing documents at gunpoint. Otherwise, the only result of "clarification" NOW is the signing away the freedom of FUTURE Armenian generations to "clarify" the issue on terms that are more beneficial to the idea of a meaningful, viable Armenian state and nation. Right now, Armenia should convince Turkey to make do with the statement that Armenia has (at the moment, and this "at the moment" should be implicit, not explicit) no demands.

 

We are fuddy-duddying on this issue and the Turks, as blurted out by their foreign minister Babacan, feel more and more confident that Turkey will have Armenia in a corner with this new Turkish-Armenian rapprochement because, at least in their minds, this will put a stop to Genocide resolutions in foreign countries, MEANING: Armenia will stop pursuing Turkey for Genocide recognition or forget about land and compensation issue altogether. If that is the case fine! then let's declare it and get on with it.

Armenian self-respect and very-long-term interests require them to refrain from declaring anything clearer than the fact that they are bringing no demands to the table. Anything else is capitulation, since extracting any sort of actual concessions from Turkey is not in the cards in the near future. "Clarifying" the issue now can only mean one thing: the effective ratification of the Kars treaty, and making it truly, "de jure", binding, as opposed to the "de facto" understanding that its terms apply in practice, even though it was not ratified by Armenia proper as an independent entity.

 

But how will ARF explain their participation in a government that will allow such a policy?

Who cares. Their only relevant role is to play the "bad cop" in the familiar routine.

 

[hyethga]

I like the ARF but I would never support them since they are a socialist party. Promoting socialism is not only silly today but just stupid. They are also way too cult like. They need to be revamped and moved towards the center-right.

 

Oh come on Euro, you know that they're only socialists in name

 

If they were true socialists, they would proclaim themselves brothers with the Turks and not advocate for the Wilsonian Armenian borders since socialism knows no boundaries!

 

 

[Z'areh]

There is no justification for being "clearer" than the government has been. Ambiguity is an indispensible tool for diplomacy.

 

 

I think Armenia cannot expect to sell this idea of ambiguity for much long. I think think Turkey knows a thing or two about diplomacy, and they are the first to not buy into the Armenian ambiguity.

 

If diplomacy is the art of polite deceit, it is also the art of "give and take", diplomacy has never been used for taking without giving. Unless, as you correctly mention, you have "crushing superiority", then you only take while you give nothing. Wasn't Kars treaty such a case for the Turks?

 

IF, on the other hand, we are so lucky as to successfully "sell" this ambiguity it will be because Armenia will be permitted to do so, such "permission" will only be due to certain strength in Armenian diplomacy. We only hope!

[Arpa]

Arpa, I couldn't disagree with you more.

====

Dear Knight, thank you for your response.

You still owe us a definition of “revolutionary”, how it was revolutionary in 1890, in 1918-20 and how today?

You say they are “socialists”, yes they are. Then why not call oneself that? There are many political parties all over the world that call themselves such.

As to my trepidation of the phrase “political party” see below.

Over 70 so called PPs for a nation that may not have more than 70,000 voters. Can we be more ridiculous?

And, coming back to “federation”, why can’t some of those idiots federate?

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13284

Blind chauvinism may be good at times, but there comes a time to remove our blindfolds and see atound us.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Arpa

[DominO123]

FK diplomacy, what diplomacy, Turkey could not handle the Kurdish issue within Turkey and in Iraq, has the Cyprus issue..., there is more chances there than any 'talent' to handle the situation. Turkey is in an important geopolitical situation, Armenia is land locked and has no oil. This is what makes all the differences.

 

Just after returning Gul claims that they still support Azerbaijan and the so-called territorial integrity... some things never changes and why should we be even surprised about it?

 

I'd say that Amenia is doing very well under the given situations.

[Z'areh]

Turkey is in an important geopolitical situation, Armenia is land locked and has no oil. This is what makes all the differences.

 

 

and that's the whole point isn't it?

[DominO123]

and that's the whole point isn't it?

 

You make it seem as if Turkey had any talent in diplomacy, when all their gain is mostly due to their advantageous position.

 

This moron after returning in Ankara is lying all over the place that Armenia is ready to redraw from Artsakh which of course is ridiculous. He also claimed that Turkey would always support its Turkic brother Azerbaijan. Is this the talent you speak off? If Turkey was in Armenia situation with this same talent it would be in a very very bad shape because of those same talents.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Dear Knight, thank you for your response.

You still owe us a definition of “revolutionary”, how it was revolutionary in 1890, in 1918-20 and how today?

You say they are “socialists”, yes they are. Then why not call oneself that? There are many political parties all over the world that call themselves such.

As to my trepidation of the phrase “political party” see below.

Over 70 so called PPs for a nation that may not have more than 70,000 voters. Can we be more ridiculous?

And, coming back to “federation”, why can’t some of those idiots federate?

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13284

Blind chauvinism may be good at times, but there comes a time to remove our blindfolds and see atound us.

 

I already gave you a definition of revolutionary. Though if you want the history lesson, political parties were outright banned in the three empires of the region in 1890 - furthermore, Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, especially, had been prey to Kurdish depredations and hostile Turkish laws for centuries. The ARF participated in numerous defenses of towns, driving off Kurdish bands and fighting Turkish gendermerie (successfully in some cases, unsuccessfully in others). Armed action to defend the people was revolutionary enough; call for Armenians to be equal to the Imperial powers and have the rights of autonomy and, later, self-determination was even moreso.

 

And they do call themselves socialist - there is more to a party than just the name. Notice that the Democratic and Republican parties of the US, in no way, state any liberal or conservative views in their names - they have the extremely bland names of "Democratic" and "Republican," even though they are both democratic and republican because the United States is a democratic representative republic. You have to actual read things like their mission statement, which quite openly state their political views. If you don't make the effort to try to learn, however (especially when the information is freely available), you can't blame them for not teaching you.

 

To say that Armenia doesn't have more than 70,000 voters is extremely facetious. And I think it's a healthy dose of democracy - why should people settle? Again, you advocate the two-party system, despite the fact that actual political analysts across the globe call the two-party system of the United States (and to a lesser degree, the similar situation in Great Britain) as a farce. Most democracies - and democracies ranked substantially higher than the United States under the Economist's Democracy Index - have multi-party systems, which rarely allow any party to gain the majority of the votes necessary to rule by itself, and thus force coalitions among parties that generally serve the public will greater, since a higher percentage of the population's interests are therefore met. In this, Armenia is actually doing quite well - a ruling coalition guides the country at the moment, of several political parties, as opposed to one party ruling unopposed (as is the case now in Russia).

 

Your personal distaste of multiple political parties, and desire to be "more like America," are not necessarily what is best for the country. I personally think that which is more democratic is healthier.

[KnightOfArmenia]

You make it seem as if Turkey had any talent in diplomacy, when all their gain is mostly due to their advantageous position.

 

This moron after returning in Ankara is lying all over the place that Armenia is ready to redraw from Artsakh which of course is ridiculous. He also claimed that Turkey would always support its Turkic brother Azerbaijan. Is this the talent you speak off? If Turkey was in Armenia situation with this same talent it would be in a very very bad shape because of those same talents.

 

Agreed.

 

Turkey is important geopolitically because it's a NATO ally on the doorstep of both Russia and the Middle East that is ruthlessly governed by a military that the US can depend on. Had things in 1920 turned out differently, this wouldn't be the case; unfortunately, they didn't. Considering the substantial - and that is an understatement - pressure on Armenia, it has done amazingly well: with its borders almost entirely closed, hostile neighbors to all directions except south (which is a neighbor hostile to everyone else on the planet, basically), it has survived and actually won a war right in its infancy, energy shortages, corruption, political turmoil, and constant threats of renewed war. Armenian politicians may have sucked 15 years ago, but now - with the help of the far more savvy Armenian politicians that have been working in the West for decades - have become very good at the Great Game.

[Z'areh]

You make it seem as if Turkey had any talent in diplomacy, when all their gain is mostly due to their advantageous position.

 

This moron after returning in Ankara is lying all over the place that Armenia is ready to redraw from Artsakh which of course is ridiculous. He also claimed that Turkey would always support its Turkic brother Azerbaijan. Is this the talent you speak off? If Turkey was in Armenia situation with this same talent it would be in a very very bad shape because of those same talents.

 

Dear DominO and KoA,

 

Geography has taught the Turks to be masters of diplomacy, even during the Ottoman periods, to play one against the other and to reap the benefits that follow. And 1923 is a good example of how the Turks managed to snatch victory from the claws of total defeat due to very skillful diplomatic maneuvering, taking every advantage of the deep schism and mistrust between the West and Russia.

 

To doubt Turkish talent or ability in diplomacy would be the greatest error in Armenian political judgment, in my opinion. As to the example you give about Gul, we have to be careful not to put words in his mouth, but then again this is exactly what he wants you to do.

 

He said: "Armenians are inclined to leave the occupied Azerbaijani territories. I felt this at the meeting with Sarkisian. Of course, the refugees will return and occupation will end," This is what he has said to journalists during the flight back home.

 

There is no lie in the above quotation, because i) he is talking about his feelings and not quoting Sarkisian directly. ii) of course the Armenians will leave the "occupied Azeri territories" once the Artsakh self-determination is accepted by Baku. He did not say leaving Nagorno-K.arabakh did he? Armenians have always made it clear that the surrounding territories are for security buffer zone. although the maximalist Armenian position demands the liberation and the keeping of ALL "occupied" territories, it is no secret that there is room for negotiations there. Armenians have not forgotten the loss of the Shaumian district either.

 

All in all I think president Gul, skillfully has sent a message to the Azeris that there is no need to panic, sent a message to Armenians to not think Turkey is going to let Armenians do as they wish in return for opening of diplomatic ties, (and hopefully create more internal Armenian discord and tension) and thirdly (most important for him) covered his political ass in regards to the Turkish military at home. While his buddy in Ankara, Prime Minister Erdogan, diverted the attention (and the worries) given to this new dialogue with Armenia by savagely attacking the countries biggest media conglomerate, the Dogan Group the same day Gul returned from Armenia. Now everybody is busy with a big scandal at home, while highest ranking Turkish officials are working out differences with Armenia.

 

I don't know what else to call all these but very savvy and very skillful diplomatic moves that deserve acknowledgment.

 

.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Z'areh